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guevaraj

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So, to recap, you limit the power of The Blood of God. Let’s go two for two… Would you say that we “can obey” God and be perfect like God, as Jesus Christ, did and was?
Brother, no! At best, we can obey what God asks of us, but we will always depend on God to keep us from sin.

“Why are you so angry?” the LORD asked Cain. “Why do you look so dejected? You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master.” (Genesis 4:6-7 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Grip Docility

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Brother, no! At best, we can obey what God asks of us, but we will always depend on God to keep us from sin.

“Why are you so angry?” the LORD asked Cain. “Why do you look so dejected? You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master.” (Genesis 4:6-7 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
Did Jesus come to save the righteous or sinners?

Did Jesus offer His “Propitiation” for active sinners “while they were sinners”… or sinners that became obedient to the stone law?

1 John 2:2 How do you define the word “Propitiation”?
 
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guevaraj

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Did Jesus come to save the righteous or sinners?
Brother, both!
Did Jesus offer His “Propitiation” for active sinners “while they were sinners”… or sinners that became obedient to the stone law?
both!
How do you define the word “Propitiation”?
A satisfying solution (Jesus blood through faith) for dealing with past sins that shows God being fair (righteousness) while also being merciful (forbearance).

whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, (Romans 3:25 NKJV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Grip Docility

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Brother, both!

both!

A satisfying solution (Jesus blood through faith) for dealing with past sins that shows God being fair (righteousness) while also being merciful (forbearance).

whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, (Romans 3:25 NKJV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
How could Jesus have died for only “past sins”… when He clearly died for all sin? What do you make of Colossians 1?
 
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guevaraj

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How could Jesus have died for only “past sins”… when He clearly died for all sin? What do you make of Colossians 1?
Brother, the word blood in Collusions 1:14 was added and is not in the original inspired word of God. We are not forgiven at the cross! Jesus' sacrifice is what allows Jesus to forgive in the heavenly temple daily as our High Priest. In the following passage, God has made His forgiveness also conditional on our forgiving others their sin against us, or God will not forgive us our sin at the time we ask for forgiveness in prayer. Before the Father placed Jesus as our High Priest, you turned to the earthly temple with human priests and animal sacrifices to benefit from God's many forgivnesses. Since the Father placed Jesus as our High Priest to give many faster "daily" forgivenesses than animal sacrifices, now you pray for forgiveness, which takes place in the true heavenly temple where Jesus serves as our High Priest for the many "daily" forgivenesses mentioned in the following passage through prayer, for which the earthly was a shadow, a temporary stand-in copy for the true heavenly temple:

Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. May your Kingdom come soon. May your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today the food we need, and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us. And don’t let us yield to temptation, but rescue us from the evil one. “If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Matthew 6:9-15 NLT)​

The King James Version relied on a limited number of late period manuscripts in the original language, about 16, when we now have a large number of earlier manuscripts in the original language, about 6000, for a more precise picture of what the inspired apostles actually wrote. Every modern translation removes the blood found in the king James Version of Colossians 1:14, because scholars agree that the inspired apostle did not write the word blood in the verse and that those who copied the manuscripts added that word as shown in our current wealth of earlier manuscripts.
United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Grip Docility

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Brother, the word blood in Collusions 1:14 was added and is not in the original inspired word of God. We are not forgiven at the cross! Jesus' sacrifice is what allows Jesus to forgive in the heavenly temple daily as our High Priest. In the following passage, God has made His forgiveness also conditional on our forgiving others their sin against us, or God will not forgive us our sin at the time we ask for forgiveness in prayer. Before the Father placed Jesus as our High Priest, you turned to the earthly temple with human priests and animal sacrifices to benefit from God's many forgivnesses. Since the Father placed Jesus as our High Priest to give many faster "daily" forgivenesses than animal sacrifices, now you pray for forgiveness, which takes place in the true heavenly temple where Jesus serves as our High Priest for the many "daily" forgivenesses mentioned in the following passage through prayer, for which the earthly was a shadow, a temporary stand-in copy for the true heavenly temple:

Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. May your Kingdom come soon. May your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today the food we need, and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us. And don’t let us yield to temptation, but rescue us from the evil one. “If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Matthew 6:9-15 NLT)​

The King James Version relied on a limited number of late period manuscripts in the original language, about 16, when we now have a large number of earlier manuscripts in the original language, about 6000, for a more precise picture of what the inspired apostles actually wrote. Every modern translation removes the blood found in the king James Version of Colossians 1:14, because scholars agree that the inspired apostle did not write the word blood in the verse and that those who copied the manuscripts added that word as shown in our current wealth of earlier manuscripts.
United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
Um…. You disagree with scripture and are going for the rewrite?
 
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guevaraj

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Um…. You disagree with scripture and are going for the rewrite?
Brother, the correction of the Sabbath from human tradition is in the book of Hebrews but the King James Version (KJV) misidentified "Joshua" before David as "Jesus", forcing the message to seem to refer to the present after Jesus when the original message was about a past mistake in the understanding of the Sabbath by Joshua when they transitioned to a different Sabbath without Manna in the Promised Land. For forty years, when they kept the seventh day with Manna, God tells us in Hebrews that He had punished them not to enter His "day" of rest available since the first week of creation, which they later entered in the Promised Land at an earlier time than the seventh day of the week. Joshua did not pay any attention to the change from a day of the week from morning to morning to the evening to evening Sabbath and assumed wrongly that this earlier Sabbath, from evening to evening, was also the seventh day of the week in the Promised Land, overlooking the fact that the days of the week were in the desert from morning to morning for 40 years.

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. (Hebrews 4:8 KJV)​

The above blunder of misidentifying Joshua as Jesus is later corrected without correcting its forced twisting effect on the rest of the passage.

For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. (Hebrews 4:8 NKJV)​

This blunder of misidentifying Joshua as Jesus hid the true message of the book of Hebrews for generations of readers of the English translation of the scriptures when Jesus wanted us to keep His first week's Sabbath "day" corrected from human tradition since Joshua, where Joshua wrongly thought the Sabbath in Jerusalem was the seventh day of the week when the Sabbath is fixed in the time zone of Eden and falls at a different time in Jerusalem, half a day before the seventh day of the week. The KJV twisted the message of the passage to fit their misidentification that many other translations followed even after the misidentification was corrected, but not corrected was its effect on the rest of the message in the book of Hebrews. Many translations continue the error started by the KJV's misidentification of Joshua as Jesus in Hebrews, chapter 4, when Jesus was not before David to make the "good news" of entering the Sabbath be mistranslated as the "gospel" of Jesus. The wrong translation of "gospel" for the phrase the "good news" of entering the Sabbath has influenced wrongly many other Bible translations after the KJV. The newer NKJV fixes the misidentification of Joshua as Jesus but not its effect on the rest of the passage, like the "gospel" of Jesus (not possible before David), for the phrase, the "good news" of entering the Sabbath, first heard by those that died in the desert.

For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. (Hebrews 4:2 NKJV)​

The blunder of misidentifying Joshua as Jesus changed the below "good news" of entering the Sabbath to the above "gospel" of Jesus, forcing the message to seem to be about the present when it is about a past misunderstanding of the Sabbath. The New Living Translation (NLT) was a complete effort from the original languages which finally corrected this twisting of the scriptures by the KJV that influenced so many other translations.

For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. (Hebrews 4:2 NLT)​

Those, like Joshua, who first heard the "good news", that God had prepared this rest" since the first week of creation, were punished not to enter the Sabbath by an "oath" near the Promised Land with Manna, that Joshua later entered before the seventh day of the week from evening to evening, having been prevented from entering the Sabbath with Manna for 40 years from morning to morning near the Promised Land. In the following Hebrews passage corrected from the blunder of the KJV, "another day" refers to a different day than the one thought for the Sabbath since Joshua: not the seventh day of the week everywhere, but the seventh day of the first week of creation remembered in the time zone of creation half a day before the seventh day in Jerusalem. We do not automatically enter the "day" of rest by accepting the "good news" of entering the Sabbath "announced to us just as it was to them" in the desert, like the KJV mistranslated. What we "can" enter is the "day" of rest in the new covenant "announced to us just as it was to them" by understanding how God prevented Joshua from entering the Sabbath for 40 years in the desert by punishing them by having them keep the seventh day of the week near the Promised Land when the Sabbath is entered earlier than the Seventh day of the week in the Promised Land.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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SabbathBlessings

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SabbathBlessings said:
Not what I asked. Post where in scripture it says Jesus is the Sabbath. Should be easy if it was there.

Heb 3:7-4:17 is about entering God;s own rest (Heb 3; i.e., salvation rest.

I declared on oath In my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'" (Heb 3:11) -- they are permanently ruled out
They were not able to enter because of their unbelief (Heb 3:19).
The promise of entering his rest still stands (Heb 4:1).
We who have believed enter that rest (Heb 4:3)
They shall never enter my rest (Heb 4:3).
It still remains that some will enter that rest.
If Joshua had given them rest (in Canaan), God would not have spoken later about another day. (Heb 4:8)
Yet, not one verse that say Jesus is the Sabbath.


The Sabbath rest is always connected to the seventh day. Christ rest is not the Sabbath rest.

These are God's written and spoken Word- which there is no greater authority than He.

Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. It's why almost all ancient languages Saturday translates into Sabbath
Even in the NT, the Sabbath rest is according to the commandment Luke 23:56

There is another rest in scripture that many misuse and apply it to the Sabbath, but its not. There is rest that one receives in Christ when one is living in harmony with God, His Word, which is also His commandments. In Christ rest there is no rebellion to Him or His commandments- its just peace.

Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then
your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

What's sad is what Hebrews is trying to teach us, is the opposite of what many teach by the doctrine that Jesus is the Sabbath and we can profane His Sabbath by not obeying the commandment the way God wrote and spoke it. Many of the Israelites thought this too Eze 20:13 Eze 20:21 and they never entered their rest in Canaan and why the author of Hebrews tells us not to follow their path of disobedience. Heb 4:11 but God gives us free will to test any theory we want.

Jesus warns us about this very thing, but many do not believe His teachings. Mat 5:18-30 Mat 15:3-14 Isa 56:1-7
 
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Clare73

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Then post one scripture that says Jesus is the Sabbath.
When you post one scripture that says "God is sovereign" or "God is Trinity."
Adding what is not there we are warned about doing. Pro 30:5-6 The doctrine Jesus is the Sabbath and we can profane His commanemnt is leading people away from obeying God. Something Jesus warns us about but sadly not many believe His teachings 5:19-30 May 15:3-14.
Hebrews is about not abandoning (apostasizing from) the faith (Heb 3:12).
Heb 3:7-4:11 is about failing to enter God's own rest (Heb 3:11, 4:3), the rest which God himself provides, not about rest from man's physical work.

I declared on oath In my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'" (Heb 3:11) -- they are permanently shut out
They were not able to enter (Canaan's rest from their enemies, Jos 1:13, Ex 33:14, Dt 12:9-10, 25:19) because of their unbelief (Heb 3:19). (Unbelief is not about physical work on the Sabbath.)

The promise of entering his rest still stands (Heb 4:1).
We who have believed enter that rest (Heb 4:3) (God's rest, provided by God, is not a physical rest.)
They (of Nu 14) shall never enter my rest (Heb 4:3) -- permanently shut out
It still remains that some will enter that rest (Heb 4:6).
If Joshua had given them rest (in Canaan), then God would not have spoken later about another day (Heb 4:8), apart from Canaan's physical rest from their enemies.
There remains then a Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb 4:9). (a Sabbath rest other than from man's physical work)
Anyone who enters God's (salvation) rest (in Jesus Christ) also rests from his own (salvation) work (Heb 4:10).
Therefore,
let us make every effort to enter that (salvation) rest (through faith in Jesus Christ) (Heb 4:11), and not apostasize from that faith.

Jesus is our NT Sabbath rest from our own works to save, and in his work which saves to the uttermost.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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When you post one scripture that says "God is sovereign" or "God is Trinity."

Hebrews is about not abandoning (apostasizing from) the faith (Heb 3:12).
Heb 3:7-4:11 is about failing to enter God's own rest (Heb 3:11, 4:3), the rest which God himself provides, not about rest from man's physical work.

I declared on oath In my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'" (Heb 3:11) -- they are permanently shut out
They were not able to enter (Canaan's rest from their enemies, Jos 1:13, Ex 33:14, Dt 12:9-10, 25:19) because of their unbelief (Heb 3:19). (Unbelief is not about physical work on the Sabbath.)

The promise of entering his rest still stands (Heb 4:1).
We who have believed enter that rest (Heb 4:3) (God's rest, provided by God, is not a physical rest.)
They (of Nu 14) shall never enter my rest (Heb 4:3) -- permanently shut out
It still remains that some will enter that rest (Heb 4:6).
If Joshua had given them rest (in Canaan), God would not have spoken later about another day (Heb 4:8).
There remains then a Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb 4:9). (a Sabbath rest other than from man's physical work)
Anyone who enters God's (salvation) rest (in Jesus Christ) also rests from his own (salvation) work (Heb 4:10).
Therefore,
let us make every effort to enter that (salvation) rest (through faith in Jesus Christ) (Heb 4:11), and not apostasize from that faith.

Jesus is our NT Sabbath rest from our own works to save, and in his work which saves to the uttermost.
Christ rest is not the Sabbath rest. When we enter into Christ rest there is no rebellion to Him or any of His commandment including the Sabbath commandment that is on the seventh day. Exo 20:10

You might consider looking up the Greek words for rest in Hebrews 4. It will clearly show there are two different rests, not one.

I'll even help...

For example the rest in Hebrews 4:5 definition:

katapausis: rest
Original Word: κατάπαυσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: katapausis
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ap'-ow-sis)
Definition: rest
Usage: (in the Old Testament of the rest attained by the settlement in Canaan), resting, rest, dwelling, habitation.

Nothing to do with the Sabbath-rest

There are two different rests being referred to in Hebrews 4 not one, so I see why it confuses most people. If we trust God that His Word cannot be altered Psa 89:34 we would know to dig a little deeper.

The Sabbath rest is referred to in Heb 4:4 and Hebrews 4:9.

Hebrews 4:9NIV There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
The Sabbath rest is always on the seventh day according to God Exodus 20:10 God's people understand this even in the NT Luke 23:56

The rest in verse 9 literally translates into Sabbath-keeping, that remains for God's people who want to join themselves with Christ Isa 56:1-6.

Rest in Heb 4:9
sabbatismos: a sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: a sabbath rest
Usage: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

Hebrews 4:10
shows these two different rests and how we enter into Christ rests

Hebrews 4:10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.

When did God rest from His works? On the seventh day. Heb 4:4 Exo 20:11 Gen 2:1-3

What you are promoting is the opposite of what God's Word is trying to teach us, we should pray to hear His voice TODAY and not be in rebellion to God Heb 3:7-8 just like many of the Israelites who also defiled and rebelled against God's Sabbath Eze 20:13 Eze 20:21 and who we are not to follow in their same path of rebellion Heb 4:11. The choice is ours who we are going to follow. The same path of disobedience or trust God and His eternal Word that cannot be altered by man. Mat 5:18 Deut 4:13 Psa 89:34 Num 23:20
 
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Clare73

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Christ rest is not the Sabbath rest. When we enter into Christ rest there is no rebellion to Him or any of His commandment including the Sabbath commandment that is on the seventh day.
Agreed. . .and yet the law has been fulfilled simply by one thing--loving one's neighbor (Ro 13:8).
You might consider looking up the Greek words for rest in Hebrews 4. It will clearly show you are confusing the different rests and their meanings.
Katapausis - in the NT, rest, repose

Feel free to Biblically demonstrate your assertion if you want it to have merit.

"The promise of entering his rest still stands." (Heb 4:1)
"We who have believed enter that rest." (Heb 4:3)

You fail to see that just as entering physical rest in Canaan demanded faith in God's promise, so his rest; i.e., spiritual salvation-rest, is likewise entered only by faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ (Ro 4:3).
 
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Grip Docility

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Christ rest is not the Sabbath rest. When we enter into Christ rest there is no rebellion to Him or any of His commandment including the Sabbath commandment that is on the seventh day.

You might consider looking up the Greek words for rest in Hebrews 4. It will clearly show you are confusing the different rests and their meanings.
Remember when the disciples asked Jesus why He spoke in parables?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Remember when the disciples asked Jesus why He spoke in parables?
Jesus wasn't speaking in Hebrews. Hebrews was written decades after the Cross. God's covenant was ratified at the Cross- It Is Finished. Nothing could be changed by man. Its the same old story man thinks they know better than God. Only God can reverse His blessing Num 23:20, not man.

The faithful disciples still kept every Sabbath day Acts 18:4 Acts 13:42-44 Acts 17:2 decades after the Cross because the Sabbath commandment didn't turn into Jesus.
 
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Grip Docility

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Jesus wasn't speaking in Hebrews. Hebrews was written decades after the Cross. God's covenant was ratified at the Cross- It Is Finished. Nothing could be changed by man. Its the same old story man thinks they know better than God.
Man could have the Holy Spirit before Christ. SAMSON for example.

If the righteousness that the Holy Spirit brings can bring about Perfect Obedience, why did we need Jesus?,
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Man could have the Holy Spirit before Christ. SAMSON for example.

If the righteousness that the Holy Spirit brings can bring about Perfect Obedience, why did we need Jesus?,
The Holy Spirit brings us back to God's Word John 14:26 not away from God's Word. That is the other spirit we are warned about Isa 8:20

Not interested in debating this endlessly. The scripture I posted speak for themselves, hopefully one will consider in prayer. Take care.
 
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Grip Docility

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The Holy Spirit brings us back to God's Word John 14:26 not away from God's Word. That is the other spirit we are warned about Isa 8:20

Not interested in debating this endlessly. The scripture I posted speak for themselves, hopefully one will consider in prayer. Take care.
You didn’t answer my question. Would you declare yourself perfectly obedient to God in the presence of God?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You didn’t answer my question. Would you declare yourself perfectly obedient to God in the presence of God?
What does my obedience to God have to do with your salvation in Christ. We all have to stand before Christ 2 Cor 5:10 based on what we do, not what others do or don't do. We should work on ourselves and not worry what others are doing or not doing. We can point out through scripture what God's Word says, but even if no one was obeying God, doesn't mean we get a pass. Sodom and Gomorrah is a good example of this. So are the days of Noah, which we are told will be similar to Christ Second Coming.
 
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Grip Docility

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What does my obedience to God have to do with your salvation in Christ. We all have to stand before Christ 2 Cor 5:10 based on what we do, not what others do or don't do. We should work on ourselves and not worry what others are doing or not doing. We can point out through scripture what God's Word says, but even if no one was obeying God, doesn't mean we get a pass. Sodom and Gomorrah is a good example of this.
Let’s play a game of Theological Chicken…

This is exactly what it has to do with my salvation.

I beat my chest before God and cry out “Oh, Lord God, have mercy on me, a sinner… for Your ways are perfect, while my ways are broken and fallen. Please, Lord, forgive me for my trespasses as I forgive those who have trespassed against me”

I further confess to you @SabbathBlessings that I am a hopeless sinner, only saved by the full atonement/propitiation of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

How do you respond to this, in light of my initial question… “Would you declare yourself perfectly obedient to God, in the presence of God?”
 
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Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
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Did Jesus come to save the righteous or sinners?

Did Jesus offer His “Propitiation” for active sinners “while they were sinners”… or sinners that became obedient to the stone law?

1 John 2:2 How do you define the word “Propitiation”?
Both. If I never sin again in my life I still need the righteousness of Christ to cover me because of all my past sins..
 
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