Modesty argument?

[anewman1993]

Man, I'm seeing some people in here talk out there butt. Lets get a few things really REALLY straight.

Obviously that does not mean going naked but shows that the outward dress is not that important.

Where do you draw the line?

You are definitely wrong to think that if you do marry then you have a right to tell her what to wear. Sorry doesn't work like that.

Sorry, thats just wrong, its not based on scripture. I'm not saying husbands should order their wives around but scripturally they have a responsibility to do as their husbands wish.

Ephisians 5

2 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Granted the husband has his own responsibilities in the marriage as well, mainly to treat the wife as christ treats the church. Howeve that doesn't negate the fact that wives are to obey their husbands.

also:

4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife.

Granted, this is a two way street, so if the wife says "I don't want you to wear that" then men, we are also required to obey in that context.

Your girlfriend is also right in that it is not her problem if men lust. Of course the bible does talk about if a person is weak in an area then they can approach a person and ask for help. However it should be noted that when the bible talks of this it always assumes relationship (friendship) not asking a complete stranger.

Sorry, this is complete bull. We like to pretend that we can do whatever we want and that has no effect on the people around us. Women, if you walk down the street naked, guys are GOING to look at you, and they are going to lust. yes, they had to make a decision to lust, but you made that a very VERY hard choice by walking down the street naked. The same is true about what you wear, if your breast are hanging halfway out your shirt, you are setting guys up for failure. I don't care if you don't think this is the case, it is, you need to understand that. The bible tells us pretty clearly we are to not cause other people to stumble.

jesus says in luke 17

17 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. 2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 So watch yourselves.

This verse is not just talking about children, but all of us as children of god.




While this verse in 1 corinthians 10 is mainly talking about food, its also applicable to other areas.

23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.
25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”
27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. 29 I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?
31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

On a side note I am more likely to find a woman in an ankle length dress or skirt attractive than a woman dressed in tight pants or tank top. Different people have different tastes and it is impossible to dress in a way to prevent every single person finding you attractive because of these varied tastes

Personally I agree with you on this. There is this one girl I know, hands down one of the most beautiful women Ive ever meet. Ive never seen her wear anything remotely un-modest. she doesn't wear tight clothing or show cleavage, or wear tight pants or shorty shorts. As a guy, I like being around her because it draws all the attention to her face, not her boobs or her butt or legs or whatever. It gets rid of the distractions and makes it easier to focus on her as a person, not a piece of meat.

If you have a strong conviction over the clothing issue you are better off courting a lady with an amish or mennonite background. IMHO.
Or Puritan.
You are being puritanical, which borders on being controlling. Things were no better in the puritan days in america. If you showed your ankle, that was being risque. Again, only give your opinion when asked. That goes for all other situations as well, and applies to everyone.

Thats complete bull. Wearing cloths that actually cover your body does not make you Amish or a puritan. Grow up ,act like an adult.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I think you have a very wise and mature take on this issue. It is ALWAYS best to err on the side of a young woman dressing modestly and conservatively., especially in a highly sexualized culture . I personally think a good many women are clueless when it comes to their safety -------- its sort of like 'Im going to dress anyway I feel like and Men just better be able to handle it and if they cant, then too bad ' . Today , a woman needs to do everything possible NOT to comply with the sexual illicit culture in EVERYTHING ; that includes clothing/talk/actions/etc... the messages a woman sends to a man by the way she dresses is a very real thing. And in our out of control sexualized Culture, the man often gets some very wrong and perverted ideas which sadly get acted out on all too often. IE: If a young woman is showing too much breast or no bra, the guys mind goes to thinking that she is an easy fornication .

The women in any society have tremendous control and power over the sexual climate of a nation. The more women show themselves to be tramp-ish , the greater DISrespect Men and Boys will have toward women in general., and greater will men view women as convenient exploitation for their own self centered gain (temporary at best before moving onto the next sexual perannah quest) .

It is THE most dangerous time in history for a Woman to be alive and the facts show why : 1 in 4 women will be abused either physically and/or sexually sometime in their life...........and 1 in 3 Women while in College will experience the same. As her b/f, you should do everything within your power to educate and protect your g/f . ``

Some good thoughts here...but young women do not need control freaks. I'm not saying the OP poster is a control freak, but it's an attitude to be avoided also.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Some good thoughts here...but young women do not need control freaks. I'm not saying the OP poster is a control freak, but it's an attitude to be avoided also.

Its not being a 'Control Freak' for the b/f to tell his g/f the danger behind dressing inappropriately ...and, since hes in a committed relationship, he does have the right and duty to express his opinion on the matter out of love and concern. In fact, the g/f should want his input and graciously receive it .

 

[ToBeBlessed]

If you have a strong conviction over the clothing issue you are better off courting a lady with an amish or mennonite background. IMHO.

So he should change all his beliefs to get a chick that dresses like an amish or mennonite? That's just strange. We do not need to be unequally yoked which is a much bigger issue than just clothes.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

You said she was in college, so I'm going to assume late teens, early twenties for her age.

The first thing I would think about is that she says she want to dress for herself, so is she into 'fashion'. It seems to be that the fashion is about the skinny jeans and leggings sort of look, if it's just about a fad, then she very well may grow out of it.

I think that you should ask more questions and find out why she does what she does. She is at a time in her life where it may all be about self expression to her. She's young and with maturity comes wisdom.

If she is not your fiancé and you have made no commitment to her, than why would she want to change herself for you when there is no commitment there?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Its not being a 'Control Freak' for the b/f to tell his g/f the danger behind dressing inappropriately ...and, since hes in a committed relationship, he does have the right and duty to express his opinion on the matter out of love and concern. In fact, the g/f should want his input and graciously receive it .

Well, I don't disagree necessarily, but on the other hand control freakery is an issue.

 

[anewman1993]

So he should change all his beliefs to get a chick that dresses like an amish or mennonite? That's just strange. We do not need to be unequally yoked which is a much bigger issue than just clothes.

No one is saying women should dress like amish people. This is what we are talking about, this is pretty modest, women, if you think this is to modest then there is a WHOLE other problem going on. (and anywoman who refuses to dress modestly is ultimately making her fashion sense an Idol in her life, which is a much MUCH larger issue)

 

[ToBeBlessed]

No one is saying women should dress like amish people. This is what we are talking about, this is pretty modest, women, if you think this is to modest then there is a WHOLE other problem going on. (and anywoman who refuses to dress modestly is ultimately making her fashion sense an Idol in her life, which is a much MUCH larger issue)

Did you read post #16? In that post (16) her recommendation is that the OP date amish or mennanite women because they dress modestly. Who dates someone of another religion just cuz they dress modestly? As if that in itself wouldn't lead to an abundance of new problems.

That was the specific post that I had written the specific response to. If someone replies to a specific post, they are specifically addressing what was said in that post. Context.

 

[anewman1993]

Did you read post #16? That was the specific post that I had written the specific response to. If someone replies to a specific post, they are specifically addressing what was said in that post. Context.

Ahh ok, mine was kinda targeted at everyone though. Lots of people had been expressing the idea that modest dress=amish. I thought I would say "Um ,no" to that idea

 

[7angels]

e nice opinions i read concerning this issue. but i see very little scripture to support the reasoning.

first the word teaches modesty but what is modesty? modesty differs depending upon the person. when we push our beliefs off on another the we are essentially taking away their right to choose. if God will not do that to us then why do we think it is ok to do this to others.

second can both of you hear the voice of God? if the answer is no then i think you have to fix this issue with God before you start on the smaller issues. hearing from God will allow you to find out from the source himself what He has planned for you and there is nothing too small that you cannot ask God about. it is funny that people worry about the smallest things and yet the big issues seem to never get addressed. if you can hear God speak and he does not say whether the clothes worn for example are wrong then why do you worry about it?

third i have found that the bible speaks over and over again about the intent of the heart is what causes us to sin or causes us to be declared righteous. i don't know where a person is in there walk with God but as you grow in the Lord God will start telling you things that have to change. for example if a girl is wearing clothes that i don't think are very modest but she has no problem wearing them then over time God will correct her. maybe God is working with her in other areas and the modesty of clothing is not at the top of God's list for her atm.

do i need to post scripture to prove my point? i dislike long typing but i will post later the scriptures if you need them.

God bless

 

[ConfuseddotCom]

I'm thinking your intentions are honourable, but she is her own person and makes her own choices. You are not married so have no right to tell her what to wear or what to do.
If it's a problem now, it will be a problem if you ever get married.

Maybe, go shopping with her when she needs to buy clothes and just observe how she selects the clothes, and also give your opinion, but ONLY when she asks you. If she's wearing tight clothing it seems its for athletics/sport. I'm not sure if she's practicing yoga- you mentioned yoga pants - but if that is the case..there's some spiritual issues that need to be dealt with. Yoga is a no-no. How do you know this girl is a christian?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing Yoga!!!

 

[Goodbook]

Rubbish.
Read your bible.

Dating isnt even a commitment. Marriage or engagement is. I don't tell my friends what they can or cannot wear..they are adults. They buy and choose their own clothes. You treat your friend like a child as if she doesnt know any better. Leave that to her Dad. If you don't like what she wears, don't date.

The fact that you have to hide your eyes from every female says more about how weak you are than about your friend.

 

[Goodbook]

Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. What fellowship has light with darkness? Etc.

This applies to both people who practise yoga - from hinduism, and also to anyone we date with view to marriage. If youve ever done any yoga youll know that all the postures and asanas are worshipping the hindu gods. You want to breathe and pretend you're dying, whilst contorting yourself into a pretzel? Be my guest..and pay those yoga teachers $10 each week to enlighten your wallet. Hindu and new age religion are completely selfish.

Anyway, something OP wants to think about..date or break. I would see no point in dating someone I wanted to argue with. Two can only walk together of they BOTH mutually agree, not one twist the other ones arm into agreeing with theirs.

 

[ConfuseddotCom]

Yoga is exercise, it is not a religion!

 

[TheDag]

This applies to both people who practise yoga - from hinduism, and also to anyone we date with view to marriage. If youve ever done any yoga youll know that all the postures and asanas are worshipping the hindu gods. You want to breathe and pretend you're dying, whilst contorting yourself into a pretzel? Be my guest..and pay those yoga teachers $10 each week to enlighten your wallet. Hindu and new age religion are completely selfish.

Yoga like Tai Chi has two aspects to it. They are easily separated. You can do the exercises which are very good for you without even going anywhere near the spiritual side. it is also easy to work out which instructors or groups mix it with spirituality and avoid those groups.

Anyway, something OP wants to think about..date or break. I would see no point in dating someone I wanted to argue with. Two can only walk together of they BOTH mutually agree, not one twist the other ones arm into agreeing with theirs.

No relationship is free from differences of opinion. We need to be careful not to spread the lie that disagreements are wrong. The bible mentions situations where it is ok to have different opinions and how to handle that. What counts is how that is handled. Of course there are some beliefs that one can not disagree on but the essentials are very small in number.

 

[TheDag]

No one is saying women should dress like amish people. This is what we are talking about, this is pretty modest, women, if you think this is to modest then there is a WHOLE other problem going on. (and any woman who refuses to dress modestly is ultimately making her fashion sense an Idol in her life, which is a much MUCH larger issue)

and I know guys who would find that very attractive. More attractive than if she was wearing a tank top. As others have pointed out there are groups who do consider that immodest because of the short sleeves. You say they have issues but can you provide one single verse in the bible that makes it clear that it is not immodest? I bet you can't because there isn't one. So at the end of the day your point is not valid because some guys are more likely to lust over that than skimpier dressed woman. So your advice is for women to dress in a way that might cause men to lust. How do you think that is appropiate?

Its not being a 'Control Freak' for the b/f to tell his g/f the danger behind dressing inappropriately ...and, since hes in a committed relationship, he does have the right and duty to express his opinion on the matter out of love and concern. In fact, the g/f should want his input and graciously receive it .

All we have is one side of the story. From that side of the story we see that it is repeated comments again and again. So for all we know she received it graciously the first time. Who knows maybe even the second time but after that perhaps she got frustrated because she possibly felt she was being listened to.

 

[TheDag]

Where do you draw the line?

I draw the line at giving my opinion and explaining my view once. If asked for an opinion I give it. The bible never calls for me to force my views on others. Sure it gives examples of what to do if a person sins and continually refuses correction. Of course in that case it also assumes there is a relationship between the people.

Sorry, thats just wrong, its not based on scripture. I'm not saying husbands should order their wives around but scripturally they have a responsibility to do as their husbands wish.

No scripture is very clear that men are not to order their wives around.

Granted the husband has his own responsibilities in the marriage as well, mainly to treat the wife as christ treats the church. Howeve that doesn't negate the fact that wives are to obey their husbands.

Yes and one of those responsibilities is for the husband to submit to his wife. Always interesting when people ignore that bit.

Granted, this is a two way street, so if the wife says "I don't want you to wear that" then men, we are also required to obey in that context.

when we read the verses before that it makes it clear that a couple are supposed to fulfill their marital duties. The first two verses make it very clear it is talking about very specific matter. What the passage does not make clear is the definition of marital duties. I do not believe this passages justifies sex on demand as some believe. Of course then the verse that follows is that he says it not as a command but a concession.

Sorry, this is complete bull. We like to pretend that we can do whatever we want and that has no effect on the people around us. Women, if you walk down the street naked, guys are GOING to look at you, and they are going to lust. yes, they had to make a decision to lust, but you made that a very VERY hard choice by walking down the street naked. The same is true about what you wear, if your breast are hanging halfway out your shirt, you are setting guys up for failure. I don't care if you don't think this is the case, it is, you need to understand that. The bible tells us pretty clearly we are to not cause other people to stumble.
Can't remember which fallacy this is called. I call it argument by ridicule. Show just one post where someone has suggested or even implied a woman should walk down the street naked. You won't be able to so please actually think through your responses before making them. Fact is the bibles instructions on dressing modesty are all about not dressing to draw attention to yourself.

Yes the bible says we should not cause others to stumble but as I pointed out this is always in the context of relationship. For example 1 Cor 10 which you mentioned it talks about having a meal with a brother (fellow believer). That is not talking about if you happen to bump into a person on the street while going about your business. If I see a woman with her breasts half hanging out I think yuck. I don't think I want to get her into bed (which is what lusting is).
As a final comment on this I never said it has no effect on people around us. Very little sin if any has no affect on people around us.

Personally I agree with you on this. There is this one girl I know, hands down one of the most beautiful women Ive ever meet. Ive never seen her wear anything remotely un-modest. she doesn't wear tight clothing or show cleavage, or wear tight pants or shorty shorts. As a guy, I like being around her because it draws all the attention to her face, not her boobs or her butt or legs or whatever. It gets rid of the distractions and makes it easier to focus on her as a person, not a piece of meat.

and I'd be more likely to lust over her than a person in skimpy outfit. So therefore she is not dressing in a way to prevent me from lusting and is sinning according to you. I take my thoughts captive in that area and don't allow the thought. By doing this consistently lusting never enters my mind. Still working on some other issues and controlling those thoughts but getting there.

Thats complete bull. Wearing cloths that actually cover your body does not make you Amish or a puritan. Grow up ,act like an adult.

Please read what people write. Goodbook said that the puritans considered showing your ankle to be the exact same as you talk about cleavage hanging out. So your friend you mentioned I reckon would most likely be rather risque in her dress. What is so wrong with suggesting someone look in certain areas where they are likely to find a person who matches their beliefs?

 

[taxreliever]

You are trying to control her by telling her what is acceptable to wear.

She's all growed up and you're not her daddy. If you want a more modest woman then you have to find one who already is. Bothering her about this will just encourage her to wear those clothes when you are not around.

This.....one of the things that attracted me to my wife was her modesty....and it was her heart about it, not the mere fact that she was modest.

I also think that bothering her will naturally push her to doing it in secret or just being worse about it.

I will say that I don't necessarily think it's a control thing if you've let your spouse (I know you're not married) know that you have certain feelings about something, or asked that she do something for you specifically...there's a line there.

If you have a strong conviction over the clothing issue you are better off courting a lady with an amish or mennonite background. IMHO.

Ummm....no, I don't think we need to go to extremes here....I believe this person could find someone that may be more compatible in this area that is of his religious belief systems.

Good discussion though.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I can see the many differing sides of the argument. Both extremes have a point, and so do the in-between degreess.

On one hand, it can come off as controlling if you're expressing approval or disapproval at what she wears. On the other hand, if you and she don't see eye to eye on an issue that you feel to be a point of doctrine, you both might be better off if you can either resolve it or be with someone who sees it the same way you do. You can resolve it different ways. She can agree to be more covered up, or you can agree to not say anything unless she specifically asks. You can come up with any agreement that works for the two of you.

Echoing the sentiment that some guys are going to lust no matter what she's wearing. There are some to whom woman dressed in full habit is actually more appealing than one in a bikini. Because the woman covered up for religious reasons is "forbidden," that type will only see her as a challenge and want to try to get her to change her mind.

 

[taxreliever]

I can see the many differing sides of the argument. Both extremes have a point, and so do the in-between degreess.

On one hand, it can come off as controlling if you're expressing approval or disapproval at what she wears. On the other hand, if you and she don't see eye to eye on an issue that you feel to be a point of doctrine, you both might be better off if you can either resolve it or be with someone who sees it the same way you do. You can resolve it different ways. She can agree to be more covered up, or you can agree to not say anything unless she specifically asks. You can come up with any agreement that works for the two of you.

Echoing the sentiment that some guys are going to lust no matter what she's wearing. There are some to whom woman dressed in full habit is actually more appealing than one in a bikini. Because the woman covered up for religious reasons is "forbidden," that type will only see her as a challenge and want to try to get her to change her mind.

I think, in American societies, far more men would google (gawk?) over a woman in a thong and string bikini top than a fully clothed beautiful one, but I do understand the point. If that's the case, then I think the OP would not want to have the vast majority of men gawking at his possible future bride because she dresses in a provocative way than say a very modest woman. And I'm guessing dealing with that one man in a million (or thousand, or whatever) that is lusting (or the issues described below) over his wife fully clothed, would be his preference as opposed to having to deal with many, many men whistling, gawking, taking pictures, hitting on, etc.