The 24 Elders in Revelation

[yeshuasavedme]

Ahh.

Well, we're coming to it then, as I was thought.

No to answer your question. Like I said, lots of theories out there.

I somehow do not think you are coming to anything at all.
Theories are just that. The Word of God is where we learn doctrine from, and the elders are Watchers, intercessors, angels called "elect" who dwell in Zion above, as I pointed out in my first answer to your OP, which you really should read for it is filled with the Word of God references to show that your op is not biblicaly possible.

 

[Standing Up]

Don't worry, he also saw those who had not repented before the tribulation and who did not get glorified at the change before the tribulation, who then did repent and were saved by the compassion of the LORD of Glory, but they got no glory.
Enoch is written specifically for those who will be living in that day, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed by that great day of His wrath in the tribulation.
And Enoch tells about it before Jesus confirms it, and before John saw the things in heaven post ascension that Enoch saw pre-incarnation.

Enoch tells about the nations who gather against the Holy City and about their defeat long before John saw the things about that day which complement Enoch's revelations.

Anyone who attempts eschatology without the book written first, by Enoch, about the end of all things and the regeneration of the heavens and the earth, is without understanding, for the hiding of the Wisdom of God on these things which Enoch wrote for the world before the flood of Noah, even, which he also foretold.

Why don't you start a new thread on this, so that it can be corrected?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Why don't you start a new thread on this, so that it can be corrected?

Look around here. There are many already.
I am refuting your OP with the revelations from Enoch, correlated with the OT, and confirmed by the revelation given to John, as I posted in my first reply.

No, what Moses patterned on earth was after the heavenly things.

The Watchers, who are "chiefs" are those angels of whom the seven stand before the God of the whole earth, and they are the "ancients" who dwell in Zion of the heavenlies and who intercede for men, and before whom the LORD Jesus reigns gloriously.

Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
If you really want to know about the angels who dwell in that city of God and who are called the "elect angels", and who pray and intercede for men, then read the Book of 1 Enoch.
Enoch saw them in that city and longed to go there, and was granted to go, in his translated to glory body.

1 Enoch chapter 39...
3 And in those days a whirlwind carried me off from the earth,
And set me down at the end of the heavens.
4 And there I saw another vision, the dwelling-places of the holy,
And the resting-places of the righteous.
5 Here mine eyes saw their dwellings with His righteous angels,
And their resting-places with the holy.
And they petitioned and interceded and prayed for the children of men,
And righteousness flowed before them as water,
And mercy like dew upon the earth:
Thus it is amongst them for ever and ever.
6a And in that place mine eyes saw the Elect One of righteousness and of faith,
7a And I saw his dwelling-place under the wings of the Lord of Spirits.
6b And righteousness shall prevail in his days,
And the righteous and elect shall be without number before Him for ever and ever.
7b And all the righteous and elect before Him shall be strong as fiery lights,
And their mouth shall be full of blessing,
And their lips extol the name of the Lord of Spirits,
And righteousness before Him shall never fail,
[And uprightness shall never fail before Him.]
8 There I wished to dwell,

And my spirit longed for that dwelling-place:
And there heretofore hath been my portion,
For so has it been established concerning me before the Lord of Spirits.
9 In those days I praised and extolled the name of the Lord of Spirits with blessings and praises, because He hath destined me for blessing and glory according to the good pleasure of the Lord of 10 Spirits. For a long time my eyes regarded that place, and I blessed Him and praised Him, saying: 'Blessed is He, and may He be blessed from the beginning and for evermore. And before Him there is no ceasing. He knows before the world was created what is for ever and what will be from 12 generation unto generation. Those who sleep not bless Thee: they stand before Thy glory and bless, praise, and extol, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of Spirits: He filleth the earth with 3 spirits."' And here my eyes saw all those who sleep not: they stand before Him and bless and say: 'Blessed be Thou, and blessed be the name of the Lord for ever and ever.' And my face was changed; for I could no longer behold.

​

That city is where all Believers have now "come to" and where the righteous go to dwell, at death.

Hbr 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Hbr 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Now, those Watchers intercede for men, as is shown in Rev. and in 1 Enoch above, and in 1 Enoch 14, when Enoch intercedes for the watchers who fell, God said this to them through Enoch;

And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: "You should intercede" for men, and not men 3 for you: Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children 4 of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons? And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die 5 and perish. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget 6 children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. But you were formerly 7 spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling. 8 And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon 9 the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; 10 they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless 12 hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.
​

and

n the passage from Enoch where he gazed on the City of God, where the elect angels [the Watchers] dwell, and intercede for men from, and where Enoch longed to go to and was granted. The next part of that passage is the same scene in heaven which John reported, only Enoch saw it pre-incarnation and John saw it post resurrection and ascension.
One cannot understand Revelation without reading and understanding 1 Enoch, for Revelation is the "finish" of the things Enoch saw "from the beginning", when Enoch was taken to heaven and saw the Son of Man there, hidden, with God, and who was God, and who was to come, die, make an end of sin, descend to Sheol; rise, take the righteous from Sheol, ascend, and sit on the throne of Glory and return to earth to reign gloriously in the seventh Day of earth, before He regenerated the heavens and earth for the new creation.

Enoch 39 8 There I wished to dwell,
And my spirit longed for that dwelling-place:
And there heretofore hath been my portion,
For so has it been established concerning me before the Lord of Spirits.
9 In those days I praised and extolled the name of the Lord of Spirits with blessings and praises, because He hath destined me for blessing and glory according to the good pleasure of the Lord of 10 Spirits. For a long time my eyes regarded that place, and I blessed Him and praised Him, saying: 'Blessed is He, and may He be blessed from the beginning and for evermore. And before Him there is no ceasing. He knows before the world was created what is for ever and what will be from 12 generation unto generation. Those who sleep not bless Thee: they stand before Thy glory and bless, praise, and extol, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of Spirits: He filleth the earth with 3 spirits."' And here my eyes saw all those who sleep not: they stand before Him and bless and say: 'Blessed be Thou, and blessed be the name of the Lord for ever and ever.' And my face was changed; for I could no longer behold.
[Chapter 40]
1 And after that I saw thousands of thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand, I saw a multitude 2 beyond number and reckoning, who stood before the Lord of Spirits. And on the four sides of the Lord of Spirits I saw four presences, different from those that sleep not, and I learnt their names: for the angel that went with me made known to me their names, and showed me all the hidden things. 3 And I heard the voices of those four presences as they uttered praises before the Lord of glory. 4,5 The first voice blesses the Lord of Spirits for ever and ever. And the second voice I heard blessing 6 the Elect One and the elect ones who hang upon the Lord of Spirits. And the third voice I heard pray and intercede for those who dwell on the earth and supplicate in the name of the Lord of Spirits. 7 And I heard the fourth voice fending off the Satans and forbidding them to come before the Lord 8 of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth. After that I asked the angel of peace who went with me, who showed me everything that is hidden: 'Who are these four presences which I have 9 seen and whose words I have heard and written down?' And he said to me: 'This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.' 10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.
​

and -continued

 

[yeshuasavedme]

and continued

Men who deny the role of the angelic Watchers are biblicaly illiterate, besides being ignorant of the revelations of 1 Enoch which God gave us through Enoch to teach us these things, by.

Dan 4:13 "I saw in the visions of my head while on my bed, and there was a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven.
Dan 4:14 He cried aloud and said thus:

'Chop down the tree and cut off its branches,
Strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit.
Let the beasts get out from under it,
And the birds from its branches.
Dan 4:15 Nevertheless leave the stump and roots in the earth,
Bound with a band of iron and bronze,
In the tender grass of the field.
Let it be wet with the dew of heaven,
And let him graze with the beasts
On the grass of the earth.
Dan 4:16 Let his heart be changed from that of a man,
Let him be given the heart of a beast,
And let seven times[fn1] pass over him.

Dan 4:17 'This decision is by the decree of the watchers,
And the sentence by the word of the holy ones,
In order that the living may know
That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men,
Gives it to whomever He will,
And sets over it the lowest of men.'
​

Dan 4:23 And inasmuch as the king saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying, 'Chop down the tree and destroy it, but leave its stump and roots in the earth, bound with a band of iron and bronze in the tender grass of the field; let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let him graze with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him';
Dan 4:24 this is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king:
Dan 4:25 They shall drive you from men, your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make you eat grass like oxen. They shall wet you with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses.
Dan 4:26 And inasmuch as they gave the command to leave the stump and roots of the tree, your kingdom shall be assured to you, after you come to know that Heaven rules.
Dan 4:27 Therefore, O king, let my advice be acceptable to you; break off your sins by being righteous, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor. Perhaps there may be a lengthening of your prosperity."

Dan 4:28 All this came upon King Nebuchadnezzar.
Dan 4:29 At the end of the twelve months he was walking about the royal palace of Babylon.
Dan 4:30 The king spoke, saying, "Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for a royal dwelling by my mighty power and for the honor of my majesty?"
Dan 4:31 While the word was still in the king's mouth, a voice fell from heaven: "King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: the kingdom has departed from you!
Dan 4:32 And they shall drive you from men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. They shall make you eat grass like oxen; and seven times shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses."
​

Watchers are chief angels, set over men, who intercede for men, and who dwell in Zion of the heavenlies, and there are 24 elders, ancients of them who are seen enthroned in Rev.
Seven of them stand before the God of the whole earth [God the Word, who is come in flesh], and one of them is over them all, Michael, the chief angel of the chief angels.

"This is by the decree of the Watchers", says Daniel, and "this is the decree of the Most High", says Daniel; for the Watchers rule over the world of men for the Most High God. They are the "Holy Ones" who do His will, and of them there are seven holy ones standing before God in His temple in heaven, and one of them is Chief of them all, standing before God, the Word, in His temple.

Then, in Enoch and in Rev, there are four who also bear the same names as four of the seven chief angels, and they are dreadful creatures of great power and glory, called "living creatures" and "beasts".

 

[Standing Up]

There are two called Michael in heaven, as Enoch shows.
Both are angelic creatures. One is the chief/arch of the chief/arch Watchers, as Enoch shows.
So you are into Ellen White? She's wrong, you know, biblically.

Jesus Christ is God the Word, to whom Michael answers and whom Michael stands before, in heaven, as one of the seven chief Watchers.

Look, there is no sense in continuing a conversation about the building when our foundations are completely different, totally contrary.

So again, start a thread about your foundational beliefs and we can get that corrected. Once done, we can discuss building from there.

Now back to the topic of this thread, please.

 

[tz620q]

The twenty-four Elders — PRIESTS!

The Greek word used for Elders here is Presbyteroi, from which the English word priest is derived. Seems pretty obvious to me. I agree that the 24 Elders represent the 24 courses of Levitical priests that were allowed into the presence of God.

 

[Standing Up]

The Greek word used for Elders here is Presbyteroi, from which the English word priest is derived. Seems pretty obvious to me. I agree that the 24 Elders represent the 24 courses of Levitical priests that were allowed into the presence of God.

Well, it is interesting. The 24 divisions were made up of 16 and 8, 16 from Eleazar and the 8 from Ithamar (2 sons of Aaron). At various times, both lines could claim a High Priest. As mentioned in the OP, Ezra came through Eleazar.

To the NT, as well, Zechariah, father of John the Baptist, was of the eighth division Abijah. Chosen by lot, he was tending to the incense in the holy place when the angel visited him. (Luke 1)

As to the new song, there's 24 divisions of singers in Chronicles 25:2,3,4.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Look, there is no sense in continuing a conversation about the building when our foundations are completely different, totally contrary.

So again, start a thread about your foundational beliefs and we can get that corrected. Once done, we can discuss building from there.

Now back to the topic of this thread, please.

The elders are Watchers, angels, who dwell in Zion of the heavenlies, as the Word of God states in multiple places about them and their duties, as my replies to you point out, with Scripture. You miss completely that Moses was instructed to make all things according to the pattern of the heavenly things shown him, and that the earthly signifies the heavenly.


You have no biblical authority for claiming that they are anything human -zilch; nada; none!

Please read my posts on the subject which use the Word of God, to show you your error.

 

[zeke37]

OT.....24 priestly courses, orders or weeks, duties in temple...done twice a year for 1 week each..and the festival weeks make up the rest of the year. Levitical High priest's...24 of them....and 24 courses.

 

[adimus]

The books of Enoch are pseudepigraphal. That means that they are fake. Either that or we are all half-aliens.

 

[adimus]

The elders are Watchers, angels, who dwell in Zion of the heavenlies, as the Word of God states in multiple places about them and their duties, as my replies to you point out, with Scripture. You miss completely that Moses was instructed to make all things according to the pattern of the heavenly things shown him, and that the earthly signifies the heavenly.


You have no biblical authority for claiming that they are anything human -zilch; nada; none!

Please read my posts on the subject which use the Word of God, to show you your error.

I thought that elders were leaders of the community of faith. The church has elders. Israel had elders. When did elders become non humans? Maybe they are angels. But all the other elders in the Bible are human.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I thought that elders were leaders of the community of faith. The church has elders. Israel had elders. When did elders become non humans? Maybe they are angels. But all the other elders in the Bible are human.

Everything Moses saw was a pattern of heavenly things.

There is a heavenly City called Mount Zion. It is inhabited by "elect angels" and Enoch was raptured to there in his own translated to glory body, before the flood; which flood Enoch foretold as the first consummation of sin on earth; and Enoch foretold the tribulation of the last days as the second and last consummation of sin on earth, also.

Enoch saw the "ancient ones" -Watcher angels- in that city, who interceded for the Adam race, and before whom righteousness flowed like water. Enoch longed to go there, to that City which he saw "afar off". He was granted that plea because "he pleased God", whom Enoch saw in heaven and who was the Word, who is and was, from the beginning, the Prince of Peace".
All the patriarchs, from the time of Enoch's translation to glory, have longed for that City, in which City Enoch revealed that the names of all those who choose to live the "elect life", from the beginning of the world, have their names written/enrolled, as citizens of that City. Jesus told his disciples to rejoice that their names were written in heaven, for Enoch had already revealed that they were, in his writings; and those disciples were familiar with those writings from which Jesus preached about Himself as "the Son of Man in heaven", who was with God and who was God, and who was to come and is now come, in flesh.

Paul calls Jerusalem above the true Church, the "mother of us all", and that City is personified as a woman, in Scripture, "Zion" of the heavenlies, whose Foundation Stone for the building up of it as God intended [with human being "stones/pillars" joined to the company of the elect angels], is being built since the resurrection, for His glory to indwell.
The author of Hebrews [probably Paul] spoke of that City of God in Hebrews 12, in which City the angels dwell, from the beginning, and the spirits of just men made perfect, since the resurrection ["made perfect" by the Atonement], and where all the righteous souls were taken to dwell, from Sheol below, when Jesus rose and ascended, and where all the born again in Spirit believers go to dwell, since the resurrection of Jesus.

That City has elders, of the angels who are called in the Word "Watchers", who intercede for men, and who party hugely, with great rejoicing, every time a sinner comes to repentance on earth below.


Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

 

[adimus]

Enoch is a bunch of made up BS. It is pseudepigraphal. That means it claims to be authored by Enoch but unknown authors penned it. Be careful. Enoch will not enlighten you. And yes, I have read it.

In fact, my middle name is named after the Watchers. Interesting tidbit.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Everything Moses saw was a pattern of heavenly things.

There is a heavenly City called Mount Zion. It is inhabited by "elect angels" and Enoch was raptured to there in his own translated to glory body, before the flood; which flood Enoch foretold as the first consummation of sin on earth; and Enoch foretold the tribulation of the last days as the second and last consummation of sin on earth, also.

Enoch saw the "ancient ones" -Watcher angels- in that city, who interceded for the Adam race, and before whom righteousness flowed like water. Enoch longed to go there, to that City which he saw "afar off". He was granted that plea because "he pleased God", whom Enoch saw in heaven and who was the Word, who is and was, from the beginning, the Prince of Peace".
All the patriarchs, from the time of Enoch's translation to glory, have longed for that City, in which City Enoch revealed that the names of all those who choose to live the "elect life", from the beginning of the world, have their names written/enrolled, as citizens of that City. Jesus told his disciples to rejoice that their names were written in heaven, for Enoch had already revealed that they were, in his writings; and those disciples were familiar with those writings from which Jesus preached about Himself as "the Son of Man in heaven", who was with God and who was God, and who was to come and is now come, in flesh.

Paul calls Jerusalem above the true Church, the "mother of us all", and that City is personified as a woman, in Scripture, "Zion" of the heavenlies, whose Foundation Stone for the building up of it as God intended [with human being "stones/pillars" joined to the company of the elect angels], is being built since the resurrection, for His glory to indwell.
The author of Hebrews [probably Paul] spoke of that City of God in Hebrews 12, in which City the angels dwell, from the beginning, and the spirits of just men made perfect, since the resurrection ["made perfect" by the Atonement], and where all the righteous souls were taken to dwell, from Sheol below, when Jesus rose and ascended, and where all the born again in Spirit believers go to dwell, since the resurrection of Jesus.

That City has elders, of the angels who are called in the Word "Watchers", who intercede for men, and who party hugely, with great rejoicing, every time a sinner comes to repentance on earth below.


Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

ancients -from concordance on blb.org;
1) old
a) old (of humans)
b) elder (of those having authority)


Gesenius's Lexicon (Help)

Enoch 39
And set me down at the end of the heavens.
4 And there I saw another vision, the dwelling-places of the holy,
And the resting-places of the righteous.
5 Here mine eyes saw their dwellings with His righteous angels,
And their resting-places with the holy.
And they petitioned and interceded and prayed for the children of men,
And righteousness flowed before them as water,
And mercy like dew upon the earth:
Thus it is amongst them for ever and ever.
6a And in that place mine eyes saw the Elect One of righteousness and of faith,
7a And I saw his dwelling-place under the wings of the Lord of Spirits.
6b And righteousness shall prevail in his days,
And the righteous and elect shall be without number before Him for ever and ever.
7b And all the righteous and elect before Him shall be strong as fiery lights,
And their mouth shall be full of blessing,
And their lips extol the name of the Lord of Spirits,
And righteousness before Him shall never fail,
[And uprightness shall never fail before Him.]
8 There I wished to dwell,
And my spirit longed for that dwelling-place:
And there heretofore hath been my portion,
For so has it been established concerning me before the Lord of Spirits.
9 In those days I praised and extolled the name of the Lord of Spirits with blessings and praises, because He hath destined me for blessing and glory according to the good

Enoch [Chapter 70]
1 And it came to pass after this that his name during his lifetime was raised aloft to that Son of 2 Man and to the Lord of Spirits from amongst those who dwell on the earth. And he was raised aloft 3 on the chariots of the spirit and his name vanished among them. And from that day I was no longer numbered amongst them: and he set me between the two winds, between the North and the 4 West, where the angels took the cords to measure for me the place for the elect and righteous. And there I saw the first fathers and the righteous who from the beginning dwell in that place.
[Chapter 71]
1 And it came to pass after this that my spirit was translated
And it ascended into the heavens:
And I saw the holy sons of God.
They were stepping on flames of fire:
Their garments were white [and their raiment],
And their faces shone like snow.
2 And I saw two streams of fire,
And the light of that fire shone like hyacinth,

1Ti 5:21 I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ,and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

The authority of the Watchers;

Dan 4:13 "I saw in the visions of my head while on my bed, and there was a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven.
Dan 4:14 He cried aloud and said thus:

'Chop down the tree and cut off its branches,
Strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit.
Let the beasts get out from under it,
And the birds from its branches.
Dan 4:15 Nevertheless leave the stump and roots in the earth,
Bound with a band of iron and bronze,
In the tender grass of the field.
Let it be wet with the dew of heaven,
And let him graze with the beasts
On the grass of the earth.
Dan 4:16 Let his heart be changed from that of a man,
Let him be given the heart of a beast,
And let seven times[fn1] pass over him.

Dan 4:17 'This decision is by the decree of the watchers,
And the sentence by the word of the holy ones,
In order that the living may know
That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men,
Gives it to whomever He will,
And sets over it the lowest of men.'
...

Dan 4:23 And inasmuch as the king saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying, 'Chop down the tree and destroy it, but leave its stump and roots in the earth, bound with a band of iron and bronze in the tender grass of the field; let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let him graze with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him';
Dan 4:24 this is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king:

One of the four beasts, living creatures, before the throne of God in heaven is named Gabriel, who is set over the "powers -the "geborim", the Mighty Ones", as Enoch shows one of his duties is, and one named Gabriel is a "Watcher", one of the seven chiefs [arch angels] of the chiefs, who stand before the God of the whole earth, in His temple in heaven, and Michael is the "chief" of those chiefs.

Enoch [Chapter 40]
1 And after that I saw thousands of thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand, I saw a multitude 2 beyond number and reckoning, who stood before the Lord of Spirits. And on the four sides of the Lord of Spirits I saw four presences, different from those that sleep not, and I learnt their names: for the angel that went with me made known to me their names, and showed me all the hidden things. 3 And I heard the voices of those four presences as they uttered praises before the Lord of glory.
4,5 The first voice blesses the Lord of Spirits for ever and ever.
And the second voice I heard blessing 6 the Elect One and the elect ones who hang upon the Lord of Spirits.
And the third voice I heard pray and intercede for those who dwell on the earth and supplicate in the name of the Lord of Spirits.
7 And I heard the fourth voice fending off the Satans and forbidding them to come before the Lord 8 of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth. After that I asked the angel of peace who went with me, who showed me everything that is hidden:
'Who are these four presences which I have 9 seen and whose words I have heard and written down?'
And he said to me: 'This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering:
and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael:
and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel:
and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.'
10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.

Enoch 39 and 40 correlate with the scenes in heaven which John saw, in Rev.
to Rev

Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Luk 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.


Enoch [Chapter 20]
1,2 And these are the names of [the seven chief watchers]the holy angels who watch.
Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is 3 over the world and over Tartarus. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men.
4,5 Raguel, one of the holy angels who takes vengeance on the world of the luminaries.
Michael, one 6 of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind and over chaos.
Saraqael, 7 one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit.
Gabriel, one of the holy 8 angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim.
Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

ancients -from concordance on blb.org;
1) old
a) old (of humans)
b) elder (of those having authority)


Gesenius's Lexicon (Help)

1Ti 5:21 I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ,and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

The authority of the Watchers;

Dan 4:13 "I saw in the visions of my head while on my bed, and there was a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven.
Dan 4:14 He cried aloud and said thus:

'Chop down the tree and cut off its branches,
Strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit.
Let the beasts get out from under it,
And the birds from its branches.
Dan 4:15 Nevertheless leave the stump and roots in the earth,
Bound with a band of iron and bronze,
In the tender grass of the field.
Let it be wet with the dew of heaven,
And let him graze with the beasts
On the grass of the earth.
Dan 4:16 Let his heart be changed from that of a man,
Let him be given the heart of a beast,
And let seven times[fn1] pass over him.

Dan 4:17 'This decision is by the decree of the watchers,
And the sentence by the word of the holy ones,
In order that the living may know
That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men,
Gives it to whomever He will,
And sets over it the lowest of men.'
...

Dan 4:23 And inasmuch as the king saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying, 'Chop down the tree and destroy it, but leave its stump and roots in the earth, bound with a band of iron and bronze in the tender grass of the field; let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let him graze with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him';
Dan 4:24 this is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king:

One of the four beasts, living creatures, before the throne of God in heaven is named Gabriel, who is set over the "powers -the "geborim", the Mighty Ones", as Enoch shows one of his duties is, and one named Gabriel is a "Watcher", one of the seven chiefs [arch angels] of the chiefs, who stand before the God of the whole earth, in His temple in heaven, and Michael is the "chief" of those chiefs.

Enoch 39 and 40 correlate with the scenes in heaven which John saw, in Rev.
to Rev


Luk 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.


Enoch [Chapter 20]
1,2 And these are the names of [the seven chief watchers]the holy angels who watch.
Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is 3 over the world and over Tartarus. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men.
4,5 Raguel, one of the holy angels who takes vengeance on the world of the luminaries.
Michael, one 6 of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind and over chaos.
Saraqael, 7 one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit.
Gabriel, one of the holy 8 angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim.
Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.

[Chapter 92]
1 The book written by Enoch-[Enoch indeed wrote this complete doctrine of wisdom, (which is) praised of all men and a judge of all the earth] for all my children who shall dwell on the earth. And for the future generations who shall observe uprightness and peace.
2 Let not your spirit be troubled on account of the times;
For the Holy and Great One has appointed days for all things.
3 And the righteous one shall arise from sleep,
[Shall arise] and walk in the paths of righteousness,
And all his path and conversation shall be in eternal goodness and grace.
4 He will be gracious to the righteous and give him eternal uprightness,
And He will give him power so that he shall be (endowed) with goodness and righteousness.
And he shall walk in eternal light.
5 And sin shall perish in darkness for ever,
And shall no more be seen from that day for evermore.
[Chapter 91]
1 And now, my son Methuselah, call to me all thy brothers
And gather together to me all the sons of thy mother;
For the word calls me,
And the spirit is poured out upon me,
That I may show you everything
That shall befall you for ever.'
2 And there upon Methuselah went and summoned to him all his brothers and assembled his relatives.
3 And he spake unto all the children of righteousness and said:
'Hear, ye sons of Enoch, all the words of your father,
And hearken aright to the voice of my mouth;
For I exhort you and say unto you, beloved:
4 Love uprightness and walk therein.
And draw not nigh to uprightness with a double heart,
And associate not with those of a double heart,
But walk in righteousness, my sons.
And it shall guide you on good paths,
And righteousness shall be your companion.
5 For I know that violence must increase on the earth,
And a great chastisement be executed on the earth,
And all unrighteousness come to an end:
Yea, it shall be cut off from its roots,
And its whole structure be destroyed.
6 And unrighteousness shall again be consummated on the earth,
And all the deeds of unrighteousness and of violence
And transgression shall prevail in a twofold degree.
7 And when sin and unrighteousness and blasphemy
And violence in all kinds of deeds increase,
And apostasy and transgression and uncleanness increase,
A great chastisement shall come from heaven upon all these,
And the holy Lord will come forth with wrath and chastisement
To execute judgement on earth.
8 In those days violence shall be cut off from its roots,
And the roots of unrighteousness together with deceit,
And they shall be destroyed from under heaven.
9 And all the idols of the heathen shall be abandoned,
And the temples burned with fire,
And they shall remove them from the whole earth,
And they (i.e. the heathen) shall be cast into the judgement of fire,
And shall perish in wrath and in grievous judgement for ever.
10 And the righteous shall arise from their sleep,
And wisdom shall arise and be given unto them.
[And after that the roots of unrighteousness shall be cut off, and the sinners shall be destroyed by the sword . . . shall be cut off from the blasphemers in every place, and those who plan violence and those who commit blasphemy shall perish by the sword.]
18 And now I tell you, my sons, and show you
The paths of righteousness and the paths of violence.
Yea, I will show them to you again
That ye may know what will come to pass.
19 And now, hearken unto me, my sons,
And walk in the paths of righteousness,
And walk not in the paths of violence;
For all who walk in the paths of unrighteousness shall perish for ever.'
[Chapter 93]
1,2 And after that Enoch both gave and began to recount from the books. And Enoch said:
' Concerning the children of righteousness and concerning the elect of the world,
And concerning the plant of uprightness, I will speak these things,
Yea, I Enoch will declare (them) unto you, my sons:
According to that which appeared to me in the heavenly vision,
And which I have known through the word of the holy angels,
And have learnt from the heavenly tablets.'
3 And Enoch began to recount from the books and said:

 

[adimus]

Think about this. Enoch was written AFTER the Old Testament was completed and before the New Testament was written.

It was a popular book at the time of the New Testament.

It draws a lot from obscure passages in the Old Testament and fleshes out that which is not delved into in the Old Testament (just like the Mormon teachings do).

A number of places in the New Testament apparently used Enoch as their source of information, Jude being the best example.

There were a number of extra-biblical sources used in the old and new Testaments. This does not mean that these sources were inspired by God AT ALL. It means that the point of what was being said in the Bible was inspired. I can quote from Hitler, Satan and Muhamed to illustrate my point. If I happened to include such a citation in my writings that happened to end up in the Bible, that does not mean that my sources are also inspired. I can give numerous examples of obviously unscriptural sources used by the authors of scripture if necessary.

Jude's quote from Enoch also illustrates a greater truth. A Spiritual leader can teach false information with an inspired and true message/point. That is how church leaders all teach countless variation on eschatology and soteriology and yet preach Jesus as the resurrected Lord and savior and they are all preaching the truth even though they are wrong about various things.

You can use the totally wrong source of information and still be hearing from God about something. Columbus even did this when he was "inspired" by the words of the Catholic apocrypha to search for the New World.

In Jude, the passage from Enoch simply re-iterates the things already confirmed by many passages of the real scripture. The message was that the Lord will return with the saints and then he will judge the world. Simple. Nothing about Watchers, etc.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Think about this. Enoch was written AFTER the Old Testament was completed and before the New Testament was written.

David used Enoch and Jasher, repeatedly; Abraham used Enoch, as Abraham's own writings state, which fragments you can read in the DSS. and all nations are descended from Enoch, through Noah, and all nations' fathers had Enoch, when they came off that boat, and all nations once knew the One Gospel promise of redemption though the Seed of the Woman promised to Adam [and all Adam's seed, who were in his loins and who fell in his fall].

Only in Enoch is the foundation laid for the Gospel of Christ, who was in heaven from the beginning; who was with God and who was God, and who was seen only by Enoch in heaven, as the Son of Man in heaven who was God the Word and who was "from the beginning"..

Only in Enoch is the foundation laid for the doctrines of sheol below earth, the lake of fire, the origin of demons and their doom, the chained angels, the Day of Atonement ending sin, once, for all, the reason for the goat chosen by lot "for Azazel" [wrongly translated as scapegoat, int he English], on the day of Atonement, and the Gospel of Christ as the Son of man in heaven is only from the writings of 1 Enoch.
Jesus used Enoch's revelations to preach about Himself, without apology or explanation, and so do I, following Jesus my Lord, who calls Enoch "Scripture" and "the Wisdom of God", in Luke.

Only Enoch saw all things and told of them, and John's revelation correlates with Enoch's, and Revelation cannot be understood without Enoch.

Enoch was never banned by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which was begun as Jewish Ethiopians who were converted to the Gospel of Christ. They never followed Rome and they never banned ENoch, and so it was preserved in their "canon" from the beginning of the NT Church, there.

The DSS findings confirm that Enoch was Scripture for the "sons of zadok" who used it as Scripture to study.

And in the fragments called "the Genesis Apocryphon", in the DSS, Abraham [Abram] read from the writings of Enoch, to the wise men of Pharoah;

"...of Pharaoh Zoa[n] about my affairs and about my wife, and they presented [me numerous gifts and aske]d m[e to teach them] values, wisdom, and truth. So I read in their presence the [book of] the words of [En]och..." http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jcreeves/1qapgen.htm

 

[adimus]

All of those extra biblical writings in the DSS are called pseudepigraphal for a good reason. None of them when set to scrutiny pass the tests that would indicate that they are authoritative and should be considered as scripture.

First of all, Jesus even denounced the teaching that angels and humans can marry and bear children, as Enoch teaches that they do.

Second, there is no evidence that Jesus drew from Enoch in anything He said including when he said "God in His wisdom..." It is more likely that this was a common saying that also made it into the pages of Enoch. You have to admit that this simple phrase is extremely scant and shaky evidence for Jesus taking anything from Enoch.

Third, the cosmology of Enoch reflected the popular cosmology of the Jews and Greeks in the first century and shortly before that, which is when it is thought that Enoch was penned. These ideas did not originate exclusively from Enoch either. It is most likely that the existence of many of these teachings themselves are what made Enoch such a popular book because it directly discussed some of these things like the afterlife, angels, eschatology, etc.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

All of those extra biblical writings in the DSS are called pseudepigraphal for a good reason. None of them when set to scrutiny pass the tests that would indicate that they are authoritative and should be considered as scripture.

First of all, Jesus even denounced the teaching that angels and humans can marry and bear children, as Enoch teaches that they do.

Second, there is no evidence that Jesus drew from Enoch in anything He said including when he said "God in His wisdom..." It is more likely that this was a common saying that also made it into the pages of Enoch. You have to admit that this simple phrase is extremely scant and shaky evidence for Jesus taking anything from Enoch.

Third, the cosmology of Enoch reflected the popular cosmology of the Jews and Greeks in the first century and shortly before that, which is when it is thought that Enoch was penned. These ideas did not originate exclusively from Enoch either. It is most likely that the existence of many of these teachings themselves are what made Enoch such a popular book because it directly discussed some of these things like the afterlife, angels, eschatology, etc.

Your opinions are yours, got from blinded men, no doubt, for you have obviously never compared Jesus' doctrines to the writings of Enoch. I have, and many wise people have, also.

All that you write above is easily refuted by anyone who takes the time to research and read for themselves, and your statements are obviously made without the Light of Scripture, for Scripture itself refutes your opinions above, and false statements.

Jesus rebuked the Saducees for not knowing the Scripture of Enoch, which states that the angels in heaven do not marry and are not given in marriage and that in the resurrection, the Saints will be equal with the angels in heaven. Those are doctrines revealed in Enoch, and Jesus is giving them the same authority He gives any prophet which he speaks from, for authority.
Jesus also calls Enoch "The Wisdom of God", when He states that which is stated in the writings of Enoch, which are called the "Wisdom of God" by Enoch, himself, given to him by God.

And without Enoch, you are without any foundational authority for the doctrine of the Son of Man in heaven, who was with God and who was God, from the beginning, and who was to come, atone for sin once, for all, in the seventieth generation after Enoch, and to have all sins and iniquities laid on Him at the Atonement, and to bear that sin away, with His soul, to dump it all = "give all sin to Azazel", once, for all, and make an end of sin forever.

You are without any foundational authority for the Lake of fire, without Enoch, or for the foundational doctrine of Sheol below earth, without Enoch, and for the foundational doctrine of the origin of demons, without Enoch, and for the foundational doctrinal reason demons run about the earth tormenting and afflicting and seducing the sons of Adam, without Enoch, and for the foundational doctrine of the chained angels, without Enoch, and for the foundational doctrine of the tribulation to come, without Enoch, for the NT did not bring new doctrines, but opened that which was already written, and brought them to understanding.

 

[adimus]

Your opinions are yours, got from blinded men, no doubt, for you have obviously never compared Jesus' doctrines to the writings of Enoch. I have, and many wise people have, also.

All that you write above is easily refuted by anyone who takes the time to research and read for themselves, and your statements are obviously made without the Light of Scripture, for Scripture itself refutes your opinions above, and false statements.

Got a link?

Try not to be so hard on me. You can attract more flies with honey than vinegar.

Jesus rebuked the Saducees for not knowing the Scripture of Enoch, which states that the angels in heaven do not marry and are not given in marriage and that in the resurrection, the Saints will be equal with the angels in heaven. Those are doctrines revealed in Enoch, and Jesus is giving them the same authority He gives any prophet which he speaks from, for authority.
Jesus also calls Enoch "The Wisdom of God", when He states that which is stated in the writings of Enoch, which are called the "Wisdom of God" by Enoch, himself, given to him by God.

And without Enoch, you are without any foundational authority for the doctrine of the Son of Man in heaven,

How about Daniel 7?

who was with God and who was God, from the beginning,

Actually the Targums of Jonathan clearly teach these things about God the Word also.

and who was to come, atone for sin once, for all,

Such was taught openly in Isaiah 53.

in the seventieth generation after Enoch, and to have all sins and iniquities laid on Him at the Atonement, and to bear that sin away, with His soul, to dump it all = "give all sin to Azazel", once, for all, and make an end of sin forever.

What does 70 have to do with anything at all? It just has the ring of esoterism to me.

You are without any foundational authority for the Lake of fire,

Why would we need one? Who cares if it a lake of fire, a pit of darkness or a jail cell with Onyx Slam playing repeatedly for all eternity? Revelation is symbolism anyhow.

without Enoch, or for the foundational doctrine of Sheol below earth,

That is found all over the Psalms and the Prophets.

without Enoch, and for the foundational doctrine of the origin of demons,

There is no doctrine of such. Why would one be needed?

without Enoch, and for the foundational doctrinal reason demons run about the earth tormenting and afflicting and seducing the sons of Adam, without Enoch,

Do we need Enoch to figure this out? Every culture deals with demons and possession. It was happening in the gospels too.

and for the foundational doctrine of the chained angels, without Enoch,

That is ABSOLUTELY NOT a "foundational doctrine." One may never have heard of such and be saved just fine. That is a fable. It means nothing nor does it make any difference.

and for the foundational doctrine of the tribulation to come,

OK. Now you set yourself up for some sport there. Read Deuteronomy 32. Read Jeremiah 30:7, Daniel 12:1-3, and then read Mat 24. The tribulation to come is one of the oldest doctrines in the Bible- without reference to Enoch. Enoch does not explain why this tribulation has EVERYTHING to do with God's faithfulness to His covenant promises to Israel.

without Enoch, for the NT did not bring new doctrines, but opened that which was already written, and brought them to understanding.

Wow. Why do we even need a New Testament then?