When did God Create the Universe?

[BNR32FAN]

In the beginning God created the universe (no days or time given for that historic event) but then follows the 7 days for this planet, all life on it, and our solar system

No that’s incorrect because in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. There is no verse referring to God creating the universe before creating earth.

 

[BobRyan]

No that’s incorrect because in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

That is the summation of everything.

But then what follows is the details for this Earth and our solar system.

There is no verse referring to God creating the universe before creating earth.

Except for the "in the beginning" statement.

Job 38:

3 Now tighten the belt on your waist like a man,
And I shall ask you, and you inform Me!
4 Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5 Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the measuring line over it?
6 On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy

God's other intelligent creations(beings)..- saw His work in laying the foundations of EARTH. The universe existed before the Earth.
On day 4 God created two lights in the sky - not a zillion and two.

Gen 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and they shall serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and they shall serve as lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; ( the stars also). 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

 

[AV1611VET]

4 Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?

He laid the foundation of the earth, when the earth was just a mass of seawater in the hollow of His hand; without form and void.

 

[The Liturgist]

There is no recreated in Gen 1 or 2 and no "recreated" on the day Christ was crucified in the the Gospel accounts.

And there is no "Christ on the cross for six days" and there is no "Christ on the cross for 7 days" in the Gospels either - as we all know.

I didn’t say there was. Christ entered Jerusalem to the cries of “Hosanna!” on the first day of Holy Week, then between the Second and Sixth day a series of events occurred, with the Sanhedrin deciding to murder Him, Judas Iscariot betraying Him, and then the Institution of the Eucharist in the Cenacle, and our Lord, God and Savior preparing for His passion in the Garden or Gesthemane; he was arrested and tried, and was crucified at the Sixth Hour on the Sixth day of Holy Week (that is, Noon on Friday), and died on the cross at the Ninth Hour (which corresponds to 3 PM; this is the event that healed, restored and glorified humanity through the human nature that Christ assumed in His incarnation) and then reposed in the tomb in the Seventh Day, before rising from the dead on Pascha, the First Day of Bright Week, which also mystically represents the Eighth Day of Creation, that is to say, the Life of the World to Come.

Thus, we see a direct parallel with light on the First Day of Holy Week with Christ, the Light of the World, arriving in Jerusalem, we see humanity glorified in Christ on the sixth, for Christ became the New Adam, and humanity is regenerated in Him, and on the Seventh Day, the Great Sabbath, Christ rested in the tomb, just as in Genesis, and on the First Day of Bright Week we see the Light of Christ shine with renewed brilliance in the Resurrection, in which He became the firstfruits of the Resurrection.

I would also stress that I did not originate this exegesis; it predates the foundation of your church and the writings of Miller and White by approximately 1800 years, give or take fifty years, for we see it reflected in the earliest Patristic writings, and indeed this is no surprise, because it is the obvious interpretation of the Gospels. It would be absurd to suggest that the arrival, crucifixion, repose and resurrection of our Lord corresponding with the First, Sixth, Seventh and Eighth day was a mere coincidence.

Likewise the descent of the Holy Spirit at the Third Hour on the First Day known as Pentecost Sunday or Whitsunday, at the end of the Feast of Weeks, is also obviously not a coincidence, since once again, we have God illuminating the world, this time very literally with the tongues of fire present among the Holy Apostles in the same Cenacle where the Eucharist was instituted just over seven weeks previously.

As far as the Patristic authenticity and Scriptural validity of what I am saying is concerned, I have no doubt my pious and excellent friends @MarkRohfrietsch @prodromos @ViaCrucis and @dzheremi will notice if I have made an error, for they have a deep understanding of the Apostolic Faith, and it is good to have a community of people who know more than I do who can double-check important doctrinal explanations such as this, just as airline pilots rely on check airmen, programmers, on code reviews and scientists, on independent experimental verification, to make sure one is staying the course.

I also have been very impressed by the Orthodox phronema demonstrated by our new Methodist friend @jas3 , for I myself was baptized in the Methodist church and grew up in it with the help of an LCMS* parochial school, and these experiences, plus my time with the UCC and its various failures, and in Anglicanism, prepared me for Orthodoxy, and indeed I was thrilled to discover the close connection between John Wesley and Eastern Orthodoxy, which occurred almost at the dawn of the very productive Anglican-Orthodox relationship.

* There is also an interesting connection between Martin Luther and the Oriental Orthodox, whose existence in Ethiopia and Armenia made Luther aware of the fact that the Pope of Rome did not control the entire church, and never did, so Luther himself was aware that Protestant vs. Catholic is a false dichotomy; also like the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox, Luther placed great emphasis on the importance to Christology of the principle of communicatio idiomatum.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is the summation of everything.

But then what follows is the details for this Earth and our solar system.

He created the sun, moon, and the stars on day 4. We only have one star in our solar system which is the sun.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Except for the "in the beginning" statement.

Job 38:

3 Now tighten the belt on your waist like a man,
And I shall ask you, and you inform Me!
4 Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5 Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the measuring line over it?
6 On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy

God's other intelligent creations(beings)..- saw His work in laying the foundations of EARTH. The universe existed before the Earth.
On day 4 God created two lights in the sky - not a zillion and two.

The “morning stars” are Jesus and satan.

”How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! But you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit.“
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭14‬:‭12‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

”“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[eleos1954]

Hi everyone, I have been pondering this, but I am not sure if this is scriptural and legit or not. Let me know what you think! My question is this- when did God create the universe? I think the answer is- never! God created time! The bible does say that God created the heavens and the earth in 7 days and I believe that, but when were the 7 days? Space and time are connected, there is space-time and the space-time continuum. I believe the "heavens" described in the bible are the universe. What do you think of this?

God lives in a eternal realm .... no time ... no beginning ... no end. Hard for us to grasp because mankind is restricted to time ... God is not.

Colossians 1:16 In-Context

16 For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him.

God created time for mankind (with purposes) and time is restricted to planet earth. Time cannot exist without consciousness. It only exists in the human mind.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God lives in a eternal realm .... no time ... no beginning ... no end. Hard for us to grasp because mankind is restricted to time ... God is not.

Colossians 1:16 In-Context

16 For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him.

God created time for mankind (with purposes) and time is restricted to planet earth. Time cannot exist without consciousness. It only exists in the human mind.

If I place a camera in the woods with no one around and it records a deer taking 30 seconds to walk across the path of the camera that just proved that time still exists without human presence.

 

[bbbbbbb]

In the beginning God created the universe (no days or time given for that historic event) but then follows the 7 days for this planet, all life on it, and our solar system

Correct. Anything beyond this is pure speculation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Correct. Anything beyond this is pure speculation.

Except for the fact that the verse actually includes the heavens and the earth so that statement is not exclusive to the universe being created in the beginning and on the fourth day the stars were created which are part of the creation of the universe.

 

[BobRyan]

Except for the fact that the verse actually includes the heavens and the earth so that statement is not exclusive to the universe being created

vs 1 is the summation that in all of it - God is the one creating.

But Gen 1 does not include the creation of the heavens, or of the Angels as happening on any of the days of creation - not of of even one star other than our own sun.

It only describes the formatting of Earth for life, and the creation of all life on Earth as well as the creation of 'the two great lights' - our Sun and moon.

Nothing else (other than the day of rest of day 7)

in the beginning and on the fourth day the stars were created

Genesis 1 is very specific - only two lights create on day 4. Not a zillion and 2.

Day 4 has no "and God said - let there be stars in the heavens".
Day 4 has not "And God made a bazillion lights in the sky" -- rather it just states that in addition to the Sun and moon made on day 4 - the stars also give light in the sky - without saying when they were made.

 

[BobRyan]

That is the summation of everything.

But then what follows is the details for this Earth and our solar system.

Except for the "in the beginning" statement.

Job 38:

3 Now tighten the belt on your waist like a man,
And I shall ask you, and you inform Me!
4 Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5 Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the measuring line over it?
6 On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy

God's other intelligent creations(beings)..- saw His work in laying the foundations of EARTH. The universe existed before the Earth.
On day 4 God created two lights in the sky - not a zillion and two.

Gen 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and they shall serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and they shall serve as lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; ( the stars also). 17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

He created the sun, moon, and the stars on day 4.

exactly two lights made on day 4.

Gen 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and they shall serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and they shall serve as lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; ( the stars also).

17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

The text places stars in with the two lights made on day 4 - saying that the lights are in the sky and give light -- but does not tell us when they were made.


"the lesser light to govern the night" is linked to "The starts also" speaking of that which governs the night but does not include the zillions of stars in with the "two" lights actually made on day 4. There is no "Let there be stars" There is no 'Then God made the stars" for day four.

We only have one star in our solar system

Agreed.

The others were already there -- and are not included in the two lights made on day four.

 

[BNR32FAN]

vs 1 is the summation that in all of it - God is the one creating.

But Gen 1 does not include the creation of the heavens, or of the Angels as happening on any of the days of creation - not of of even one star other than our own sun.

It only describes the formatting of Earth for life, and the creation of all life on Earth as well as the creation of 'the two great lights' - our Sun and moon.

Nothing else (other than the day of rest of day 7)



Genesis 1 is very specific - only two lights create on day 4. Not a zillion and 2.

Day 4 has no "and God said - let there be stars in the heavens".
Day 4 has not "And God made a bazillion lights in the sky" -- rather it just states that in addition to the Sun and moon made on day 4 - the stars also give light in the sky - without saying when they were made.

You can’t use the idea that the verse doesn’t say and God said let there be stars because he said let there be lights in the heavens. He didn’t say let there be a sun or let there be a moon. He said let there be lights in the heavens. So that same argument would also apply to the sun and moon. And that specific sentence doesn’t say anything about giving light to the earth, it’s specific to what He made.

”God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also.
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

exactly two lights made on day 4.

Gen 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and they shall serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and they shall serve as lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; ( the stars also).

17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

The text places stars in with the two lights made on day 4 - saying that the lights are in the sky and give light -- but does not tell us when they were made.


"the lesser light to govern the night" is linked to "The starts also" speaking of that which governs the night but does not include the zillions of stars in with the "two" lights actually made on day 4. There is no "Let there be stars" There is no 'Then God made the stars" for day four.

Agreed.

The others were already there -- and are not included in the two lights made on day four.

Why do you have (the stars also) in parenthesis? It’s in the actual Hebrew text, it’s not added. And the phrase “let there be lights” just means plural it is not limited to only two.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The text places stars in with the two lights made on day 4 - saying that the lights are in the sky and give light -- but does not tell us when they were made.

It says he made the sun and the moon and the stars also.

the lesser light to govern the night" is linked to "The starts also" speaking of that which governs the night but does not include the zillions of stars in with the "two" lights actually made on day 4. There is no "Let there be stars" There is no 'Then God made the stars" for day four.

It doesn’t say let there be a sun or let there be a moon either. It says let there be lights. The sun and the moon and the stars are all lights.

 

[BobRyan]

It says he made the sun and the moon and the stars also.

No it says "The moon to rule the night" -- "the stars also".

It does not say "he made the stars as well as the moon" rather it says the stars also rule the night.

Vs 1 tells us He made everything - so that would include stars -- but does not tell us when.

It doesn’t say let there be a sun or let there be a moon either.

It does "He made two great lights, the greater to rule the day, the lesser to rule the night" ---
That is the same "then God made" statement you find on other days.

NKJV " 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. ( the stars also.)

It says let there be lights.

It it says the number is "two".

The sun and the moon and the stars are all lights.

true. Some of them are included in the number "two" -- some are not

 

[AV1611VET]

vs 1 is the summation that in all of it - God is the one creating.

No, it isn't.

If so, then why is "heaven" singular in Verse 1?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

It is not until you get to Chapter 2, after creation is finished, that "heaven" is plural.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Vs 1 tells us He made everything - so that would include stars -- but does not tell us when.

Verse 1 happened on the first day

”In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.“
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

”For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.“
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭20‬:‭11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The heavens and the earth are part of the six day creation that means that the heavens and the earth were created on the first day of the six day creation.

 

[BobRyan]

Verse 1 happened on the first day

”In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.“
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Not according to the text.

Each day begins with "then God said and ends with "and evening and morning were..."

Day 1 -- vs 3 Then God said, - let there be... light"
Day 2 -- vs 6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse
Day 3 -- vs 9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered...
Day 4 -- vs 14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse...

...

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not according to the text.

Each day begins with "then God said and ends with "and evening and morning were..."

Day 1 -- vs 3 Then God said, - let there be... light"
Day 2 -- vs 6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse
Day 3 -- vs 9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered...
Day 4 -- vs 14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse...

...

Since when does anyone begin a process of doing anything with the word “then”? This is stupid, it’s similar to saying “ahh but he didn’t say Simon says”. As if the term God created the heavens and the earth in six days is insufficient evidence to support the belief that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days.