Iran Launches Attack on Israel

[Jamdoc]

I’m no Biblical scholar, neither am I any sort of hermeneutical maven, but taking apocalyptic writings literally sorta misses the whole genre’s point, no?

Assuming everything is a symbol is a mistake. Revelation explains symbols when things are symbols. Angels come by and explain this means this, this means that, and Jesus Himself explains the symbols of chapter 1. On top of that it's loaded in old testament references in which case the symbols are explained by angels or God in the Old Testament.

Revelation 7 has 2 separate groups of people. First the 144,000 which are from 12 tribes of israel.
second group is an uncountable multitude from every tribe, tongue, and nation.
You can't really equate the first group as being the Gentile Church, because they are clearly represented in the 2nd group.

It is a remnant of Israelites, and a much larger group of gentiles, representing Christianity over the past few thousand years.

 

[Jamdoc]

Just giving out chapter numbers without explanation is of no use whatsoever so it's good you have now given an explanation. it's a pity you didn't do it before.

In Romans, Paul uses the word "Israel" with more than one meaning: For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Rom 9:6. The whole passage Romans 9-11 needs considering. This is Paul being very dense in his writing. But how are we to understand And so all Israel will be saved, when it seems that the unbelieving Jews through history correspond to the branches that were cut off. Don't they count as part of the people of Israel?

But maybe an extended discussion of this topic belongs in the theological section!

As for Revelation aren't those perfect numbers too perfect? Aren't they intended to be symbolic?

Two passages that are about the most difficult in the Bible over which opinions differ. I think anyone who is dogmatically sure of their meaning may not have a firm foundation in their thinking.
.

yes branches broken back off but Paul goes into how branches will be grafted back in.

That's what I keep harping about, a promise of an eschatological repentance and salvation of a remnant of Israel that initially rejected Jesus.
as Zechariah 12 goes into it, it's people who are of the house of David (tribe of Judah), and inhabitants of Jerusalem so that's 2 things, who they are (Jews) and the fact that Jews will live in Jerusalem at the time. Who see Jesus, who they pierced.

You can't apply this to "the Church" as "the Church" did not pierce Jesus, they are not the house of David and they are not the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

 

[Jamdoc]

Jamdoc was free to state that he wasn't fine with the IDF targeting and killing a journalist. Instead he repeated the IDF propaganda lie.

The box contains people who cannot conceive that the conflict is between two sets of bad guys: Hamas and the IDF and can only think in terms of good guys and bad guys as in the classic westerns. There are some good guys though; the many non combatants who have been killed unnecessarily.

I see Hamas as clearly the bad guys that are going against God and God's plan.
I see the IDF as bad guys with a predictable future redemption arc.

But in the case of a firefight and accidental killing of a journalist, I perceive that as an accident.

 

[rjs330]

You may think it's just an excuse now, but that will likely change over the next several years. Israel's destruction of Gaza since October 7th has created a monster. Even if Hamas is eraticated tomorrow, Israel's outlook for a secure future is dim. There are countless traumatized children that are going to grow up with hatred in their hearts towards Israel for what they have done to them and their families. They have witnessed and experienced things that no human should ever have to, and they are never going to forget. The next generation of terrorists to emerge from this conflict will likely be unlike anything we have seen in the past because of the near total destruction of Gaza and the enormous number of casualties over the past six months.

Below are a few excerpts from a book written in 2005:

The fact is unmistakable and the message comes over loud and clear: a deep sense of injustice beyond the stage of profound frustration and despair stands at the heart of the issue. The Palestinian drive for freedom has been hampered by Israeli occupation atrocities.

The lack of normalcy of life can be seen on the streets torn up by army ‘chokepoints’; in the demolished homes; in the burnt and destroyed farmland; and on the faces of children whose childhood has been stripped away due to deprivation and hopelessness.

‘Every Palestinian, without exception, has felt the suffocating strangle of Israeli military control on Palestinian resistance and ‘suicide bombing’ their life’ (Baker 2001).

Arin Ahmed, a would-be bomber, During her conversation with the Israeli former minister of defence, Ben-Eliezer, she unequivocally states that her motive for considering a ‘body attack’ on Israelis was not military or religious in nature. Rather, it was exclusively personal: ‘I was in distress. I was depressed … You [Israelis] killed my friend. We were friends for a year and a half’ (Levy-Barzalai 2002).

The daily conditions of Palestinians living under occupation are bound to create immense anger, bitterness and hatred. The sights of Palestinian children being killed, women and children going hungry, a civilian population being brutalized (Aloni 2003)

The motive behind ‘suicide bombing’ is rooted in trauma: injury to a father or brother in the First Intifada, or the death of a friend or even a distant relation in the present upheavals. To clarify this, he states that ‘in every case of suicide bombing, there is a personal tragedy or a trauma’. More specifically, ‘the people doing the suicide bombing today are the children of the First Intifada and they have witnessed or suffered personal trauma in one form or another that is humiliating’ (Goldenberg 2002b)


Root Causes of Terrorism: Myths, Reality and Ways Forward 1st Edition
Tore Bjørgo

All you are doing and many leftists do is create a Catch 22 for Israel. So nothing and just continue to be attacked thus bolstering anti-Semetic support in the radical Islamists or retaliate and bolster support for the radical Islamists.

It's exactly what Islamists would want people to say.

 

[rjs330]

I was optimistic at the very beginning of the conflict, and I agree that deradicalization of the Palestinian youth would have gone a long way in preventing future violence against Israel, but I think it's far too late for that approach now. I don't think any amount of counseling or attempts at explaining why things happened the way they did can undo the amount of trauma the children in Gaza have experienced over the past six months and will continue to see into the foreseeable future. There are hundreds of thousands of children under the age of 12 in Gaza and even if deradicalization were to work on the majority of these children, there would still be tens of thousands who would be vulnerable to joining terrorist groups or would be willing to carry out acts of violence towards Israel in the future.

Well there was nothing stopping them from joining terrorist organizations and carrying out acts of violence in the future anyway. In fact that's what they were going to be doing anyway. So I guess Israel should have just let it keep happening.

 

[JosephZ]

All you are doing and many leftists do is create a Catch 22 for Israel. So nothing and just continue to be attacked thus bolstering anti-Semetic support in the radical Islamists or retaliate and bolster support for the radical Islamists.

Well there was nothing stopping them from joining terrorist organizations and carrying out acts of violence in the future anyway. In fact that's what they were going to be doing anyway. So I guess Israel should have just let it keep happening.

I'm not saying do nothing. The terrorists must be held accountable, and Hamas needs to be eradicated. Way back on October 15th, I explained what Israel should have done.

"Israel needs to focus exclusively on hunting down all of the terrorists responsible for the attack, including the leadership of Hamas, and holding them accountable. Israel also needs to stop the influx of outside funding from countries like Iran. Bombing Gaza and punishing everyone living there for the actions of Hamas isn't going to destroy Hamas or end future terror attacks against Israel. The current approach is only going to exacerbate long-standing grievances between the Palestinians and Israel, and until those grievances are addressed, terrorist attacks against Israel will continue.

To defeat Hamas, Israel has to make supporting and joining them less attractive to Palestinians and potential recruits. This can be done by Israel recognizing and respecting a Palestinian state and improving the lives of the Palestinian people. Israel will need to play a direct role in rebuilding Gaza and improving infrastructure once the dust settles from this most recent bombardment. This, along with supporting economic development and offering livelihood opportunities, would go a long way in changing the attitude and mindset of those who live in Gaza. If Israel can show that they care more about the Palestinian people than Hamas, then Hamas will lose the support of the Palestinian people and their primary recruiting tool. This is the only way to destroy Hamas. To make this happen, it will take a concerted effort by the Israeli government, the UN, NGO's, and the Palestinians themselves."

 

[Landon Caeli]

Fair enough, but give it at least 20 to 25 minutes before cutting it off.

I made it 40 min and 6 seconds, and couldn't go any further. I hope you're proud of me.

I watched a better documentary yesterday about the whales of Egypt... Yes, there really are hundreds of complete whale skeletons found throughout Egypt. It's the largest land deposit in the world. And yes, some have legs.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I'm an eternal optimist by nature - something out of my control.

...I struggle with giving the "woes" of life the time of day. Like I recently told someone who complained about my situation - I don't see problems, I only see solutions. Sometimes other people want sympathy too, and my responses are not what they want to hear.

 

[Vanellus]

But the IDF actually is the good side... They're the side that is fighting for freedom and religious and human rights.

Not really. These casualties of the war, that was started by their side, consist of many Islamist and racist people. Except for the children, who hadn't been alive long enough to be brainwashed by the Islamists yet.

Hmm well history didn't start on October 7 did it!

The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict

“The aim of the [Jewish National] Fund was ‘to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.’...As early as 1891, Zionist leader Ahad Ha’am wrote that the Arabs “understood very well what we were doing and what we were aiming at’...[Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, stated] ‘We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly’...At various locations in northern Palestine Arab farmers refused to move from land the Fund purchased from absentee owners, and the Turkish authorities, at the Fund’s request, evicted them...The indigenous Jews of Palestine also reacted negatively to Zionism. They did not see the need for a Jewish state in Palestine and did not want to exacerbate relations with the Arabs.” John Quigley, “Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice.”

Principle of distinction: Parties to an armed conflict must "at all times distinguish between the civilian population and combatants and between civilian objects and military objectives and accordingly shall direct their operations only against military objectives".

Suggesting it is ok to kill non combatants because of their supposed beliefs is contrary to the Rules of War and is the attitude of people like Joseph Stalin.

 

[Vanellus]

I see Hamas as clearly the bad guys that are going against God and God's plan.
I see the IDF as bad guys with a predictable future redemption arc.

But in the case of a firefight and accidental killing of a journalist, I perceive that as an accident.

The problem is the video evidence showed it wasn't an accident and there was no firefight where the shooting of Abu Akleh was shot. Instead one or more IDF snipers fired at the journalists from the safety of their armoured vehicles as reported by CNN.

 

[Vanellus]

yes branches broken back off but Paul goes into how branches will be grafted back in.

That's what I keep harping about, a promise of an eschatological repentance and salvation of a remnant of Israel that initially rejected Jesus.
as Zechariah 12 goes into it, it's people who are of the house of David (tribe of Judah), and inhabitants of Jerusalem so that's 2 things, who they are (Jews) and the fact that Jews will live in Jerusalem at the time. Who see Jesus, who they pierced.

You can't apply this to "the Church" as "the Church" did not pierce Jesus, they are not the house of David and they are not the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Yes but if you think "all Israel will be saved" means all the people of Israel what about the unbelieving Jews of previous generations? Aren't they part of "all Israel"?

 

[Jamdoc]

Yes but if you think "all Israel will be saved" means all the people of Israel what about the unbelieving Jews of previous generations? Aren't they part of "all Israel"?

no.
it is correct to go with as I believe you said earlier "all Israel is not Israel" (paraphrasing Romans 9:6)
It is a Remnant that is saved.
BUT it is wrong to claim that the gentile church, IS that Remnant of Israel
There's a Remnant of genetic descendants of Abraham that are elect and will be saved, even if right now they're in unbelief, at the return of Jesus.
I am trusting in the plan that God will heal the blindness, and pour the spirit of grace and supplication on them. I don't know who the remnant are going to be, that's up to God, I just know one will exist and so for their sake I will stand with Israel, and pray for Israel, over those who want to make them extinct.

That said, I find Jews are the hardest to reach with the gospel. They simply reject it, as the one here said, they refuse to accept any translations of their own writings into English, or any text from the New Testament (blindness in part..). So I honestly believe a miracle from God is required.

 

[Pommer]

That said, I find Jews are the hardest to reach with the gospel. They simply reject it, as the one here said, they refuse to accept any translations of their own writings into English, or any text from the New Testament (blindness in part..). So I honestly believe a miracle from God is required.

Historically, Christianity hasn’t been overly kind to Jews, so I’m guessing that maybe converting goes against the grain for some?

 

[Jamdoc]

Historically, Christianity hasn’t been overly kind to Jews, so I’m guessing that maybe converting goes against the grain for some?

an unfortunate reality when you teach that God is done with Israel and has switched His plan to the Church and Israel is cut off.
When you no longer see a future salvation of a remnant of the Jews, and believe that they are forsaken by God, then you see them as nothing but "Christkillers" and "Synagogue of Satan" and do the devil's work for him.
But on the other hand, Paul said that they had been blinded in part. So you kind of expect them to resist the gospel when presented, even if you are kind and supportive to them. I expect their conversion to be a miracle because that's what the bible says about it.

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

 

[Pommer]

I expect their conversion to be a miracle because that's what the bible says about it.

Again, I am not an expert on Christianity, but I’m fairly sure that the salvation of any human soul is a miracle.

 

[rjs330]

Again, I am not an expert on Christianity, but I’m fairly sure that the salvation of any human soul is a miracle.

I'm really not sure why this comment was necessary. I don't believe he even hinted at that the salvation of Jews was a miracle and for everyone else it wasn't.

 

[rjs330]

The problem is the video evidence showed it wasn't an accident and there was no firefight where the shooting of Abu Akleh was shot. Instead one or more IDF snipers fired at the journalists from the safety of their armoured vehicles as reported by CNN.

The problem is you trust CNN.

 

[Jamdoc]

Again, I am not an expert on Christianity, but I’m fairly sure that the salvation of any human soul is a miracle.

It is but there's a bit of a difference. For gentiles currently the miracle is in sending forth human evangelists who preach the Word of God and it converts people, but largely that doesn't work for the Jews, and the miracle of their conversion is an eschatological thing.

Jews as they are now are described by the bible as being given a spirit of slumber, eyes that cannot see, and ears that cannot hear (Romans 11:8, referencing Isaiah 29:10), and having stony heart that needs to be replaced with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26), and Paul writes in Romans 11 that this will persist "until the fullness of the gentiles are come in". That is, What Paul taught is that when Jews rejected Jesus, God broke them off temporarily, and opened salvation to Gentiles, who were previously in darkness and considered having no knowledge of the true God, being pagans and idol worshippers. So the miracle of the Gentile's salvation, is already currently being realized, but the Miracle of the Salvation of the Jews is currently put off, oh they do convert in small numbers, but the larger work is a yet future thing, and it won't even be possible on a large scale until the fullness of the Gentiles, which is a phrase up to interpretation, I admit, it can be guessed that it means when all the Gentiles who can be saved are saved. but that's not 100%, it can also just mean when all the uncontacted people groups are reached with the gospel, as that is the Great Commission, and it too won't be fully realized until an Eschatological event, Revelation showing it as an angel finishing the task.

Revelation 14

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

So this doesn't get finished until Antichrist is reigning.

So that gets done, and then the Jews will be transformed to be able to receive the Gospel.
That's the miracles in connection here.

So in the meantime, be graceful to them, try to be good witnesses to them, and just.. trust that God still has a plan for them.

 

[Vanellus]

no.
it is correct to go with as I believe you said earlier "all Israel is not Israel" (paraphrasing Romans 9:6)
It is a Remnant that is saved.
BUT it is wrong to claim that the gentile church, IS that Remnant of Israel
There's a Remnant of genetic descendants of Abraham that are elect and will be saved, even if right now they're in unbelief, at the return of Jesus.
I am trusting in the plan that God will heal the blindness, and pour the spirit of grace and supplication on them. I don't know who the remnant are going to be, that's up to God, I just know one will exist and so for their sake I will stand with Israel, and pray for Israel, over those who want to make them extinct.

I think you are wrong to be so dogmatic over what is a disputed theology and part of the Bible. It's an insult to people who think differently from you or who are less dogmatic than you, since if it is so obvious and clear to you as to allow no possibility of you being wrong (in your own opinion), then the implication is that those who disagree with you or who are not so dogmatic as you are stupid.

I'm hoping to start a thread on this theological subject in a theology section of the forum after I've done some reading, thinking and praying.

That said, I find Jews are the hardest to reach with the gospel. They simply reject it, as the one here said, they refuse to accept any translations of their own writings into English, or any text from the New Testament (blindness in part..). So I honestly believe a miracle from God is required.

There does seem to be this idea among some Christians that since the Jews hold to the Hebrew Bible (HB) which corresponds pretty much to the OT then they are somehow quasi Christian. This is a huge mistake since it elevates the written word above the LIving Word. Such an idea contradicts the heart of the gospel message and Christianity.

 

[MartyF]

But the IDF actually is the good side... They're the side that is fighting for freedom and religious and human rights.

No, quite the opposite is true. The Israeli Occupational Forces enforce apartheid, murder and take people and children hostage, and spit on Christians every chance they can get.

...Hamas, like their cousins ISIS, are only pretending to care about the Palestinian people.

ISIS is actually a terrorist organization supported by Israel. ISIS goes out of its way to avoid hurting Israel. Equating ISIS with Hamas is wrong.

ISIS = Israel

Hamas is likely the only group that cares for the long-term well-being of the Palestinians.

Realistically, their primary goal is racial and religious domination across the region.

Their goal is actually a democracy - which is what Israel opposes and always has.

You're projecting Israel's goals onto Hamas. Israel is a National Socialist country which imposes racial and religious domination through apartheid.

That's why Palestinians were so against Zionism from the start - because Zionism represents Judaism and a Jewish state that is designed to *not* be under Islamic domination.

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

Guess who said that?

Not really. These casualties of the war, that was started by their side, consist of many Islamist and racist people. Except for the children, who hadn't been alive long enough to be brainwashed by the Islamists yet.

No, the war was definitely started by Israel.

As for the rest of it, do you have any evidence? Israel is racist, that's simply a well-known fact.

Ethiopian women in Israel 'given contraceptive without consent'

Israel's health ministry is investigating claims that Ethiopian immigrants have unwittingly had Depo-Provera jabs for years

www.theguardian.com

Israel's apartheid against Palestinians

Palestinians are systematically subjected to home demolitions and forced evictions, and live in constant fear of losing their homes. For more than 73 years, Israel has been forcibly displacing entire Palestinian communities. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians’ homes have been demolished...

www.amnesty.org

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379

Islamist is a term created by Israel to support their propaganda.