Do members get disciplined for abstaining from an "ordinance"?

OldAbramBrown

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In a congregational or presbyterian church once having become a "member" would one be "disciplined" for sitting out from "communion" or do they leave you free? (I'm not familiar with "memberships".)

I posted this question in the "denominational" section but now I've discovered there is an "ordinance" section.
 

FireDragon76

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I go to a congregational church.

I don't go every Sunday. There is no discipline for not going every sunday, or missing Holy Communion. If you don't participate regularly, you might not be elected to the church council, but nobody is going to discipline you for exercising your Christian liberty.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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...

I don't ... Christian liberty.
Thank you! That's a good start to my picture of the concepts. Any more opinions / experiences as I'm likely to be going to the sort of congregationalists that are similar to presbyterians and I haven't been "pressing their buttons" enough to get them to explain the membership conditions.
 
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seekingHiswisdom

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Thank you! That's a good start to my picture of the concepts. Any more opinions / experiences as I'm likely to be going to the sort of congregationalists that are similar to presbyterians and I haven't been "pressing their buttons" enough to get them to explain the membership conditions.
That should be no problem.

You should be able to find each church you are interested in basics online.

My own... If i search my specific church by name there are lots of minks from their mission statement to what it means to ba a "New Wineshin"

And as my specific church follows (no, I did not say me) the Westminster Confession of Faith.... Quite an interesting... long ... read... just start with who you are researching... because I can assure you if you ask congregants it will vary.

Good luck
 
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OldAbramBrown

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They don't say on their web page about who is allowed to not stick to the letter of "ordinances", but that is probably because they are bad at admin. And they don't say verbally because they are shy. They are known to be rather startled when I ask direct practical questions. Answer: carry on muddling through. It probably won't arise unless they think of offering membership, which was sort-of mentioned on one of their web pages, and sort-of mentioned verbally to me by the old minister, but perhaps isn't important to them.
 
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ViaCrucis

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In Lutheranism we emphasize that God wants us there at His Table, because here is a means of grace where God is healing us, here is God's peace in the broken body and shed blood of Jesus Christ, for us. By depriving ourselves of this precious gift we are doing injury to our faith, we hurt ourselves. Thus abstaining, or in serious cases, cutting someone off from the Table (excommunication) is a matter of discipline in instances where we are inhabiting a rebellious attitude and thus dishonoring the Supper. The Table of the Lord is a place of healing, grace, mercy, and forgiveness, but Paul gives stern warning about abusing and mistreating the Table in 1 Corinthians 11. Those warnings need to be taken seriously, while at the same time, we should not be afraid to approach the Table--we shall never be worthy to receive, but God is faithful and just in His forgiveness and cleansing us of unrighteousness, which is why we can openly confess our sins in repentance.

Thus the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Holy Absolution) and the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper (Holy Communion) exist as grace for us, that we should come before the Throne of Grace with boldness, confessing our sins because of the seriousness of God's commandments which we have trespassed by our sin; and trusting in the Gospel of our forgiveness in Word and Sacrament we are cleansed and can boldly come before the Altar where the body and blood of Christ are given for us. For we have no righteousness before God save for the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, so that by grace alone, through faith, we are justified.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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OldAbramBrown

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Thank you, My enquiry centres on a hypothesis where I may be offered membership in a "reformed" (very different from Lutheran) church.

I have my reasons to abstain from anything outwardly resembling a bread and wine / juice ceremony for other people's conscience sake.

Would the "reformed" effectively disapprove of my abstaining once a member (as opposed to merely think me eccentric).

I don't think it is, or was, ever sound to make any "communion ceremony" compulsory, anywhere.

The idea of horizontal communion with our "leadership" organisations and of interchangeable communion is universal in thre publci mind and gaining hold. Therefore I shall not reinforce the peril to consciences given the sole focus of many religion bosses.

I tried to enquire of the officers concerned but they were preoccupied with something else.

Jesus' ordinance was to remember the gifts in my ordinary peers and any connection with consuming elements would fall away after 130 AD.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Thank you, My enquiry centres on a hypothesis where I may be offered membership in a "reformed" (very different from Lutheran) church.

I have my reasons to abstain from anything outwardly resembling a bread and wine / juice ceremony for other people's conscience sake.

Would the "reformed" effectively disapprove of my abstaining once a member (as opposed to merely think me eccentric).

I don't think it is, or was, ever sound to make any "communion ceremony" compulsory, anywhere.

The idea of horizontal communion with our "leadership" organisations and of interchangeable communion is universal in thre publci mind and gaining hold. Therefore I shall not reinforce the peril to consciences given the sole focus of many religion bosses.

I tried to enquire of the officers concerned but they were preoccupied with something else.

Jesus' ordinance was to remember the gifts in my ordinary peers and any connection with consuming elements would fall away after 130 AD.

Being ideologically/theologically in opposition to celebrating the Lord's Supper would be pretty inconsistent with almost any tradition or denomination. As far as I am aware the only denominations that don't celebrate, and I could be mistaken even about them, would be the Salvation Army and Quakers.

I suspect that if you sat down and discussed this with a Congregationalist or Presbyterian minister/leadership they would be alarmed by this sentiment, and would likely want to talk it out with you.

As for "discipline", I'm unsure. It may depend. Again, this view of yours is, from a broadly Christian perspective, alarming.

I'm finding myself more baffled as to why you would think that the consuming of the elements would have ever fallen away, especially in light of the Scripture wherein the Apostle says that when we eat and drink we proclaim the Lord's death till His coming.

As someone who went without the Lord's Supper for several years, and experienced first-hand the harm in depriving myself of that gift, I have significant difficulty trying to wrap my head around this.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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OldAbramBrown

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Being ... this.

-CryptoLutheran
It's because the theology and doctrine has now been changed by everyone to be aligned with organisations. I'm saying Jesus foresaw the risk. I also think Presbyterians (in England at any rate) are far different from you than you think. I'm not averse to hearing from Lutherans if you have the inside track to their disciplinary system ;-) They didn't answer me as they were preoccupieed.
 
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ViaCrucis

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It's because the theology and doctrine has now been changed by everyone to be aligned with organisations. I'm saying Jesus foresaw the risk. I also think Presbyterians (in England at any rate) are far different from you than you think. I'm not averse to hearing from Lutherans if you have the inside track to their disciplinary system ;-) They didn't answer me as they were preoccupieed.

Without trying to be combative--I'm really not--how does one organize people around a central set of ideas and way of life without it being an organization? That is, how can a functional community exist apart from organization--ways which organize things.

To put it another way, when Jesus says, "I will build My Church", how is that not establishing, instituting, and organizing something?

I get that living in the 21st century we're all a bit suspicious of organizations and institutions, especially "organized religion". We've all seen the ways in which organized religion--the way that systems can be abused and misused to hurt people. And given the ways in which western ethical philosophy has largely been shaped within the last several centuries, we are all very accustomed to a high, or even hyper, form of individualism. A kind of individualism that asserts the central importance of the self, and one's own autonomy (even, at times, at the expense of others).

I am not stranger to being critical of the ways in which religious institutions and structures have been used for evil. I've experienced toxic and abusive forms of religion first hand, even from a very young age. And as a student of Church history I'm aware of just how terrible such abuses have been historically.

As a Lutheran it was religious abuse that functioned as a major catalyst for Luther's reforming movement. And, at the same time, Lutherans have often themselves been complicit in the misuse of religion.

What I don't think, however, is that we can fix any those problems by getting rid of religious organization. Jesus, clearly intended His followers to be in this thing He was doing together. He didn't say "there shall be no leaders among you", but rather teaches that leading is not to act as a bully and treat others as servants, but to be the servant of others, so that the first shall be last, the least shall be called greatest in the kingdom. Christ organizes His Church, ground up, on the basis of service and love, the self-giving of Himself on the cross.

When the Church strays, reform is the way forward; not revolution. Jesus already started the revolution, we keep that fire burning. But because we are, as Scripture says, like sheep who wander, there is a shepherding for us that calls and keeps us together. And that is why it is important that we meet, and hear God's word, and meet together at Jesus' Table over which He Himself presides and gives Himself as food and drink.

He gives Himself as food and drink at His Table, so that "the cup of blessing which we bless, is it not communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread which we break, is it not communion of the body of Christ?" and further, "even as the loaf is one, we, though many, are one body for we partake of the one loaf".

Jesus is here, for us, giving Himself to us and presiding over us as the Head of the Body, the Shepherd over the flock. But that only makes sense with the Church as a body, organized with members, united together with common faith, and hearing His word which He speaks to us, and gathered at His Table.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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OldAbramBrown

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Without ... Table.

-CryptoLutheran
1 - We don't have lutheran here and that is one of the things i've never been,

2 - I didn't say I didn't want churches not to be organised. I am not interested in shallow generalities.

3 - I have specifically described the way the sole material dimension has been made compulsory.

4 - In that light I know more about the danger of intercommunion than you do. I am not interested in shallow generalities.

5 - I know more about sacramental mysticism than you do.

6 - I know more about Jesus' reasons for teaching than you (the gifts in the others).

7 - I explicitly said I make spiritual communion. I've been repeatedly warned over the years, about those who insist by their deeper degree of illumination, that it is inferior to do so. Churches have theology of ordinance in that it is an ordinance, i.e a thing you have got to or not got to do. Ordinance = is about the ordering people to do, and is not about the thing they are ordered to do. The team are ordered to provide, and not the congregants to partake.

8 - I have not requested an opinion about any of those things.

9 - It was an outside chance anybody might know about church discipline (which you haven't mentioned) in a church similar to mine (which you are unfamiliar with).

10 - You could easily read repeatedly from my thread titles and easy language in my fairly short posts, asking precisely what I was asking.

11 - Your motive in attempting to divert isn't convincing.

12 - You have ascertained that you do not happen to have anything to add to this particular thread. The visual impact of an enquiry is enhanced by not creating the false impression that it is being answered.

13 - My church elders have announced a lot of things they had been busy with (ordinary members seemed a bit dim, some not realising they were members) and I have re-enquired of the elders.
 
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FireDragon76

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1 - We don't have lutheran here and that is one of the things i've never been,

There are some Lutherans in the UK, though they tend to be immigrants. John Warwick Montgomery is a British Lutheran theologian and professor.

In addition, the first Protestant martyrs in England were actually Lutherans, and Lutheranism influenced the early Protestant reformation in England, prior to the return of the Marian exiles.
 
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RileyG

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In a congregational or presbyterian church once having become a "member" would one be "disciplined" for sitting out from "communion" or do they leave you free? (I'm not familiar with "memberships".)

I posted this question in the "denominational" section but now I've discovered there is an "ordinance" section.
Have you discussed any concerns you may have with your pastor? I would start there. Otherwise, who cares what others think? It's none of their business anyway.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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Have you discussed any concerns you may have with your pastor? I would start there. Otherwise, who cares what others think? It's none of their business anyway.
There wasn't a pastor, there was a "minister", and I was waiting for him to invite me to the class to explain memberships, but he left stating "pastoring" is onerous . We got an "assistant minister" who got rebadged "assistant pastor" and are looking to appoint a "pastor", after which the assistant hopes to return to his native region.

Not all members seemed aware of having become members. Reputedly one sends an e-mail assenting to some content of doctrinal statements, which I wanted to discuss as I think they aren't well worded, and there is this tendency to hold people to wordings at the expense of meanings.

They are good hearted people and I refuse to go the route that may customarily be subliminally intended by some, that I would find the obfuscation sufficiently off putting to not bother. Membership is a new trend in Britain (other than for serious voting and appointment as senior volunteers) and I want to examine it properly for what it might really be.

The elders are always busy and don't answer questions in detail (maybe intending to not commit themselves in the hearing of a non member).

There is the related question that should I choose a different congregation, which is also bringing in a membership idea, I could be forearmed by getting a feel for what is "received reformed thinking".

It's probably very alarming to all of them that anyone has any questions about "ordinances".

(I don't think Trinitarian baptism gives problems. But "communion" does because of loss of spiritual meaning coupled with the politically dominant intercommunion trend: thus I insist on looking after others' consciences.)

I can't even hit on the vocabulary to get these people to enter into a conversation. Hence any insights that forum members can share, will supplement any occasional truth that my friends may "let slip"!

I've even read about churches disciplining non members (who are not supposed to be under discipline) for not being members.

I keep getting told I'm fully entitled to take part in home group. but at a home group I was going to the leader (who is deaf) kept telling me I was speaking out of turn.

When is bad, bad? It's far better, in some ways, than other churches I've attended!

I haven't ruled out exploring what is meant by membership as it seems objectively normal to explore that. At the moment assurances regarding my non membership seem formulaic and vague and I would wish something more fulsome to continue as non member. Perhaps they have already picked up my viewpoint as I have described above but are a bit too shy to spell it out. They also have a shift in terminology.

At a getting to know each other lunch I appear to have stimulated inquisitiveness among long standing members, by my question asking. (They started saying they always wondered "that" or that perhaps they should ask questions about "that" themselves also.)

They are needing a rolling membership of the elder group and my hunch is some otherwise suitable men haven't been equipping themselves with background information.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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I go to a congregational church.

I don't go every Sunday. There is no discipline for not going every sunday, or missing Holy Communion. If you don't participate regularly, you might not be elected to the church council, but nobody is going to discipline you for exercising your Christian liberty.
This (your post no. 2) seemed to me the sensible way, but there is nowadays such a fuss about "membership" and "being reformed", which seems to embarrass my church even as they imply that they are insisting . . .

I even joked that talking about doctrine and church order is gossip. They laughed but I don't know if that was just nervous.
 
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seekingHiswisdom

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In a congregational or presbyterian church once having become a "member" would one be "disciplined" for sitting out from "communion" or do they leave you free? (I'm not familiar with "memberships".)

I posted this question in the "denominational" section but now I've discovered there is an "ordinance" section.
As a Presbyterian I dont know.

Why would you want to sit it out?

If you find it offensive in some way, ya need to get out of that church I think
 
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OldAbramBrown

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As a Presbyterian I dont know.

Why would you want to sit it out?

If you find it offensive in some way, ya need to get out of that church I think
I have foresight regarding sentimental universalising of "intercommunion" while quashing the gifts (the only point of "communion" in the first place) and wish to defend others' consciences by my example and refuse to accuse anyone of "offensiveness" if they are not; their problem is shyness plus an element of disorganisation.
 
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The Liturgist

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1 - We don't have lutheran here and that is one of the things i've never been,

2 - I didn't say I didn't want churches not to be organised. I am not interested in shallow generalities.

3 - I have specifically described the way the sole material dimension has been made compulsory.

4 - In that light I know more about the danger of intercommunion than you do. I am not interested in shallow generalities.

5 - I know more about sacramental mysticism than you do.

6 - I know more about Jesus' reasons for teaching than you (the gifts in the others).

7 - I explicitly said I make spiritual communion. I've been repeatedly warned over the years, about those who insist by their deeper degree of illumination, that it is inferior to do so. Churches have theology of ordinance in that it is an ordinance, i.e a thing you have got to or not got to do. Ordinance = is about the ordering people to do, and is not about the thing they are ordered to do. The team are ordered to provide, and not the congregants to partake.

8 - I have not requested an opinion about any of those things.

9 - It was an outside chance anybody might know about church discipline (which you haven't mentioned) in a church similar to mine (which you are unfamiliar with).

10 - You could easily read repeatedly from my thread titles and easy language in my fairly short posts, asking precisely what I was asking.

11 - Your motive in attempting to divert isn't convincing.

12 - You have ascertained that you do not happen to have anything to add to this particular thread. The visual impact of an enquiry is enhanced by not creating the false impression that it is being answered.

13 - My church elders have announced a lot of things they had been busy with (ordinary members seemed a bit dim, some not realising they were members) and I have re-enquired of the elders.

There actually are a small number of English speaking Lutheran churches in the UK, although most people who would go there go to a High Church C of E parish, some place like St. Bartholomew the Great, The Temple, or St. Magnus the Martyr, or even St. Stephen Walbrook, in the City of London, or All Saints Margaret Street, the Royal Chapel of the Savoy or even St. Martin in the Fields elsewhere in Central London, since the theology is the same.

By the way Orthodox Christians are not penalized for sitting out the Eucharist if they have been unable to prepare, but are strongly encouraged to receive the Eucharist as much as possible. The Syriac Orthodox Church in theory requires one to receive annually; I haven’t heard of anyone being punished for not doing that because the reality is, as one Syriac Orthodox priest told me, that in the Syriac Orthodox Church if you aren’t causing a problem for other members for example by disrupting the liturgy no one is going to create a problem for you. Levantine Christians in general are very relaxed and easy going people, and I think this is especially true of the Syriac Orthodox I’ve met.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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The Syriac Orthodox Church in theory requires one to receive annually;
The Roman church has the same rule, though if you don't keep it the only thing you can't do is significant volunteering or be appointed for something. Of late however with the "eucharist mania" even they have started kicking up a fuss if I sit out. Many protestants kick up a fuss because they are affronted anyone wouldn't be impressed with their wanting everyone to join in it; but few of those hitherto had a "membership" system (other than those who wished to vote or be appointed).

My relationships with "reformed" churches are developing; perhaps they'll allow me a chance to ask about membership on agreeable terms soon; their shyness is culturally and temperamentally ingrained. Like all the rest, they are not alert to growing "intercommunion" dangers (tie to organisations). As far as I am concerned Jesus' only meaning in provisionally continuing the ceremony among existing synagogue members was to highlight Holy Spirit gifts in ordinary believers: a thing He continues to mean. When there was more belief and supplication, sacraments really did seem a source of sustenance.
 
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The Liturgist

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The Roman church has the same rule, though if you don't keep it the only thing you can't do is significant volunteering or be appointed for something. Of late however with the "eucharist mania" even they have started kicking up a fuss if I sit out. Many protestants kick up a fuss because they are affronted anyone wouldn't be impressed with their wanting everyone to join in it; but few of those hitherto had a "membership" system (other than those who wished to vote or be appointed).

My relationships with "reformed" churches are developing; perhaps they'll allow me a chance to ask about membership on agreeable terms soon; their shyness is culturally and temperamentally ingrained. Like all the rest, they are not alert to growing "intercommunion" dangers (tie to organisations). As far as I am concerned Jesus' only meaning in provisionally continuing the ceremony among existing synagogue members was to highlight Holy Spirit gifts in ordinary believers: a thing He continues to mean. When there was more belief and supplication, sacraments really did seem a source of sustenance.

The Orthodox Churches would not admit you as a member given your views on the Eucharist but the flip side is they would never kick you out or disfelllowship you unless you tried to spread your view on the Eucharist, whereas the Roman Catholics might, because they are having a specific problem that the Year of the Eucharist and other initiatives seek to address, and that is the problem of a large number of Roman Catholics not believing in the doctrine that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of our Lord, which is also the Orthodox doctrine and the Lutheran doctrine and the doctrine of the High Church Anglicans.

What seems strange to me is that you’re in the UK and you just don’t attend Anglican churches, because the C of E really doesn’t care what your views are on the Eucharist, even though individual priests would seek to persuade you if you discussed it with them. Indeed I would myself because I believe you are mistaken, completely, both on Scriptural grounds and on Patristic grounds. Indeed I can think of only three denominations or rather one denomination and two groups of denominations, of the latter many of which are not considered Christian on CF.com because they reject the Nicene Creed, which even come close to your view on the Eucharist, but even there, to a large extent, the three denominations in question believe that the sacraments are received spiritually rather than physically, which seems not to be your belief.

Now I do understand you are trying to do the right thing based on your reading of Scripture, but I believe your understanding of it is extremely misguided, for many reasons including the fact that I was healed from an acute medical problem on Easter Sunday in 2015 through reception of the Eucharist. Now I am not saying don’t see a doctor, but rather, what I am saying is that the Eucharist made something go away. Additionally, one of my relatives, who I took to a Coptic Orthodox monastery, where she received Holy Unction, had a skin cancer tumor that was massive according to the scans turn out to be almost entirely superficial, and the wound to heal entirely without a grotesque scar or nerve damage as had been projected, and the surgeon, who had blocked nine hours to remove the tumor, removed it entirely in thirty minutes. So I have seen these sacraments work grace even in our lives in the present, and given that they can do that, I believe their importance for the future, the life of the world to come, is immeasurable.
 
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