Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

I was thinking of his pre-"revelation" conviction in upstate NY. I'd forgotten about his other legal troubles. It isn't helping his case.
The Prophet Joseph Smith Jr claimed to have been visited by both God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ in what has since been referred to as the Sacred Grove when he was only fourteen years old.

Perhaps you meant pre-founding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

The only legal proceedings that I was aware of that he dealt with before the founding of the LDS Church was the pre-trial hearing that I have already mentioned.
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Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

So, let me assume, then, that if I put on my historian's hat and I go looking for corroboration for these statements of yours, not only will I find corroboration for them but I'll find them with contexts fitting the implications that you've alluded to about them.

May I assume this will be the case?
Correct - many of the brethren for decades after the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr continued to berate the early-LDS Church because of their resistance to - not only the practice of - but the very idea of plural marriage.
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Trump blasts his trial judges. Then his fans call for violence.

"Well, it’s time that Congress takes a closer look at what “mostly peaceful” looks like. Here’s one of our witnesses, a former collegiate swimmer who found herself on the wrong end of a mob when she appeared at San Francisco State University last month to speak her mind about the state of women’s sports. She was barricaded in a room for several hours before finally being able to leave.
Our colleges and universities – once the symbol of free and open debate – are increasingly scenes of violent intimidation by left-wing extremists to silence those with whom they disagree."

Realize this was before the anti-Jewish mobs took over college campuses.

Saying the "other side"is doing it is not an argument.

The Reuters article I reference mentions acts of intimidation from the left as well. However, the article notes that pro-Trump forums include violent, inflamatory language, with specific threats to judges, elections officials etc.

In pro-Trump forums, when someone “pushes the norm of what is considered acceptable speech” by posting a call to execute judges or other public officials, “and no one questions it, then the norm of what is acceptable may shift,” said Cathy Buerger, who studies inflammatory rhetoric at the nonpartisan Dangerous Speech Project in Washington. Buerger reviewed the violent posts identified by Reuters.
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Russian Successes Admitted by Ukraine Mil.

I feel bad for the Ukranian soldiers who have been failed by the false promises of the USA and their leadership. It was foolish in the extreme to promise Ukraine freedom from Russia's sphere of influence and now we're seeing the possibility of a Ukranian collapse. People need to stop engaging in this magical thinking which suggests Russia will just leave and instead embrace a realpolitik which will lead to a negotiated settlement before Ukraine is completely destroyed as a State.
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Systemic racism in the USA: Are whites "guiltier" if they had slavery in their past?

I assume it would be difficult if colour remained an issue instead of seeing each other simply as humans. Besides, will our 'souls' be coloured? However, just asking.. without assimilation as just human beings, can a black culture find a home in a nation built upon a white foundation any more than it could find one if it returned to the soil of its roots which would be the right colour but the wrong culture. Did the white foundation find a home in the native american foundation? Have the blacks? How would that be any different than people from other nations coming here and instead of adapting to the white foundation, they keep the politics of their homelands. Babel proved a point. The Kingdom won't be segregated by colourful identity so why here?
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Israel-Hamas Thread II

Your filters either determine the outcome of your views, OR your views determine the filters you apply.

No...you made assertions about who that land belonged to....right?

We're going over who that land belonged to.

You may not want to admit it, you may not want to acknowledge it, but it's still the truth.


Your view appears to purport that the Palestinian People are an irrelevant vassal minority or no import.

My view is that the locals gave their control over the land to the Ottomans. The Ottomans in turn gave it over to the British.

This isn't a matter of my opinion, or my perspective.....this is what actually happened. These are the facts.


They are far far more than your mere beliefs.
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We Don't Have Forever - Francis Schaeffer

This is a summary of what Schaeffer said, and how it relates to us Christians in the end times.

Summary:

Schaeffer's message speaks to the urgency of standing firm in biblical truth during the end times, recognizing the finitude of our lives on Earth. By emphasizing the need to maintain both purity and love within the visible church, Schaeffer highlights the importance of obedience to Christ in preparation for His return. He warns against complacency and delay, encouraging decisive action based on biblical convictions.

In addition, Schaeffer addresses the challenges posed by increasingly hostile societal forces influenced by secular humanism, highlighting the potential risks these trends pose to Christian individuals and communities. His message encourages vigilance and proactive engagement in preserving religious freedom and promoting godly values amidst mounting pressure.

Overall, Schaeffer's address serves as a reminder of the significance of maintaining faithful witness throughout our limited time on Earth, preparing ourselves and others for the ultimate eternal destination—Christ's Kingdom.

Yes, his message isn't just important for the Presbyterian Church of which he was apart, but for all Christians, because this same thing has happened throughout all Churches. The Scriptures call us to unity and love yet there are many divisions. It's one thing to divide over sin, we MUST divide from sin and those who practice sin, but some divisions are over minor doctrinal issues, liturgies, etc.
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Houston-area school board votes to remove 13 chapters from state-approved science textbooks, citing controversial topics

No, you’re free to believe anything you’d like, if it gets you through the day.
But we (all) do know that for about 200 years humanity has been inundating the atmosphere with megatons of carbon dioxide. We also know that CO2 in the atmosphere will tend to trap heat. (Methane as well @20 times the rate of heat retention though it’s half-life is only about 20 years).

You’re free to think that these things won’t matter and that even if the climate is changing, there nothing we can do.
I do not know that - I believe that is a very widely circulated narrative though.
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A glimpse at our Eastern & Western Christian Churches

Forgive me, but you seem to be confused about what I have and havenot said in the course of this thread. I have not referred to the Assyrian Church of the East as Orthodox, nor have I called for us to engage in full communion with them.

Although they have it should be stressed corrected their Christology, and did so in the sixth century, so it could be said they accept the fourth ecumenical council but not the third, which is obviously a problem. Actually, one reason why the Oriental Orthodox did not agree to Chalcedon was the praise heaped on it by crypto-Nestorians such as Ibas, and indeed Nestorius himself praised it in his somewhat pompous memoirs, the Bazaar of Heraclides, although I regard this praise as either based on ignorance of the actual contents of the council, or senility, or perhaps Nestorius was being disingenuous; I do not regard Nestorius with sympathy, given the very comfortable nature of his exile compared to that of St. John Chrysostom, who was death marched, or the Syriac Orthodox bishops who were imprisoned and murdered (except for Mor Ya’kub Bar Addai), or St. Maximos the Confessor, who had his tongue cut out, and died as a result, especially given that Nestorius reportedly used violence against those people who refused to deny that Our Glorious Lady and Ever Virgin Mary was Theotokos, and accept his misleading, crypto-antidicomarian term Christotokos.

However, regarding the Assyrian Church of the East, they did discard his Christology in favor of a Syriac translation of Chalcedonian Christology by Mar Babai the Great just over 1500 years ago, and as a matter of fact they were in intermittent communion with the Eastern Orthodox during the late first millennium, when they were regarded as “the Persian Church.” And this did not endear us to the Oriental Orthodox, who are, especially in the case of the Coptic Orthodox*, best described as the anti-Nestorian church, which I greatly admire, given that while Eutychian Monophysitism is dead, largely thanks to Coptic efforts to eradicate it in the 5th century, and its own degeneration into Tritheism in the 6th century under John Philoponus (Monophysites such as Eutyches, and their successors such as John Philoponus, were anathematized by the Oriental Orthodox, which disagrees that the human and divine natures of our Lord became merged or that the human nature dissolved into the divine nature, as Eutyches argued), whereas Nestorianism has made a major comeback among Protestants and Restorationist churches; if we were to do a poll I think as many as 20% of the members of CF.com might confess some form of Nestorian belief, because like Nestorius, they refuse to use the term “Theotokos” or to admit that Our Lady gave birth to God, and thus are forced to invent skewed theological systems as a result.

However, as I have indicated, it is not all bad as far as the Assyrian Church of the East is concerned, since they are no longer Christologically Nestorian, and indeed have not been for 1500 years, and their non-Nestorianism was further clarified by certain statements made by Catholicos Mar Dinkha IV in 1975, and what is more, we also now know, although some Eastern and Oriental Orthodox are in denial about this, that St. Isaac the Syrian, who is the last saint to be venerated by all four ancient communions (RC, EO, OO and the Assyrian and Ancient Churches of the East**)/, was a member of the Assyrian Church of the East, and like St. Gregory of Nyssa, and most members of the Assyrian Church of the East in the late first millenium, believed in Apokatastasis, that is to say, that damnation was not permanent. The Assyrian church has since rejected this error.

I suspect you are confusing the Assyrian Church of the East with the Syriac Orthodox Church, since the two have partially overlapping jurisdiction (but not as overlapping as the Syriac Orthodox and the Antiochians), in that the Assyrians and Syriac Orthodox both operate in Iraq and in India. They also both worship using Classical Syriac, but that is also true of the Antiochian Orthodox and the Maronite Catholics (and also the Chaldean Catholics, Syriac Catholic, Syro-Malabar Catholics and Malankara Catholics) who are Chalcedonian. But the similarities end there. The Assyrian church no longer has monasteries or any significant amount of iconography, and the Syriac Orthodox Church has both, in abundance, and also the Assyrians worship using the East Syriac liturgy, whereas the Syriac Orthodox worship using the ancient Antiochene liturgical rite, which is very similiar to the Byzantine liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox, which was primarily derived from Antiochene sources (specifically, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is a minor variation on the ancient Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles; the Syriac Orthodox use both, and that of St. Basil, and also the Anaphora of St. James that many Orthodox churches use on October 23rd, and the Anaphora of St. Cyril, also known as the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, which is occasionally used by the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria, and frequently used by the Coptic Orthodox.

The Syriac Orthodox also overlap much more with the Antiochians, in that the only territory where they operate and the Antiochians have no presence is the Holy Land (there is a Syriac-speaking population in Jerusalem, centered around the Monastery of St. Mark, which is the most likely location of the Cenacle, since the Crusader Church is more likely than not actually built over the Tomb of King David), and the Holy Sepulchre, and in Bethlehem, a similiar community centered around the Syriac Orthodox portion of the Church of the Nativity complex, St. Mary’s Church (the Syriac Orthodox are the only church to have their own private church located immediately next to the Church of the Nativity, although I believe they also use the larger Greco-Armenian church on occasions such as Christmas, as it accommodates more worshippers than their own church, and they do a liturgy with the Coptic Orthodox pilgrims). The Syriac Orthodox overlap with the Antiochians in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Eastern Turkey (in the area of Antakya, formerly Antioch) and presumably India, since Antiochian canonical territory is supposed to include all of Asia (although in practice other churches have not respected this, and there are very few Eastern Orthodox in India). Of these churches, only the Assyrians and the Oriental Orthodox Armenian Apostolic Church have any significant presence in Iran (Persia).


*This also applies to their daughter churches the Ethiopian and Eritrean Tewahedo Orthodox (both of which were, as recently as a century ago, part of the Coptic Orthodox Church).

** The Ancient Church of the East separated from the Assyrian Church of the East in the 1960s over two issues: the discovery, by one of the bishops of the Church of the East that the hereditary Patrairchate that then existed was uncanonical; this became a non-issue with the assasination of Catholicos Mar Shimun XXIIII in 1974, who was the last hereditary Catholicos-Patriarch, and also the controversial decision by Mar Shimun XXIII to switch to the Gregorian calendar. However about 14 years ago the two churches announced plans to merge, although this hasn’t happened yet due to the ISIS war in Iraq and Syria and the deaths of Catholicos Mar Dinkha IV and more recently, Mar Addai II, who had been Catholicos of the Ancient Church of the East since it first separated.
Can we agree that neither the Assyrian Church of the East nor the Syriac Orthodox Church are in communion with the Eastern Orthodox? If you agree, then let's end this here before you venture down another rabbit hole.
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Russian Successes Admitted by Ukraine Mil.

Ha! Today doing some work at the Fire station and they gave us some little American flags, which I waved around, and then proceeded to fly them both out the window of the van back to the church!

American flags, not Soviet or Russian!

Not me, but like this with 2 flags...
Screenshot 2024-05-15 1.25.30 PM.png


(No, this is not my cover story! LoL)
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Israel-Hamas Thread II

The UN was quoting the Gazan medical authorities in both cases. One shows reported deaths, and the other shows deaths for which full identification is available.

View attachment 347778
View attachment 347779

How many were combatants?
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Where were the 33 missing fish

.
John 21:11 Simon Peter went up and dragged the net to land, full of large fish, one hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not broken. NKJV


At the time of Jesus' meeting with the disciples above there were 153 believers in the world that would begin His church.
Interesting op. Is it being suggested the 153 fish in the net is indicative of the number of disciples existing at that time? If so, that's seems tenuous at best. How'd you reach that conclusion?
Jesus said that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him would have everlasting life.
I do hope that is not intended to mean salvation by sight exists, or that by merely seeing Jesus a person is saved. I also hope that is not intended to mean a person cannot be saved unless he has physically seen Jesus with his own eyes.
Apollos was baptized by John the Baptist. There is a good chance that Apollos saw Jesus when he was in Judea being baptizes. It is very possible somebody pointed out Jesus to him as the man that John was referring to as being the Christ.
Ooooo.... Just because he knew the baptism of John does not mean he was baptized by John. We meet Apollos in Galatia, many years after John's death. It is possible, coming from Alexandria to Galatia he passed through Jerusalem and met John and was baptized by John, but that is not what the text actually states. Apollos and Paul proceed to Ephesus where they meet a bunch of people baptized, "Into John’s baptism." but, again, that does not mean they all met John and were baptized by him. John was leveraging a traditional Jewish cleansing ceremony, one that was normally practiced on Gentile converts to Judaism. That's why the Jewish leaders said they had no need to be baptized by John. These Ephesians are called disciples (of Christ) so they have also heard the gospel and believed - but not received the Spirit. So, again, it is possible after meeting John the met Jesus and heard Jesus speak. They'd been baptized by John and believed Jesus' preaching but all of them then left Ephesus prior to Calvary or after Calvary but before Pentecost (they haven't heard of Spirit baptism). The simpler explanation, however, would be they were preached to and converted by and individual who'd had that experience and then passed on his incomplete knowledge to others. Rather than thinking a bunch of people from various places all went to Jerusalem and had the same experience (a very real possibility I do not dismiss), isn't it more likely one individual taught many others incompletely?

Here are 12 more candidates that may have seen Jesus and believed in him then went back to another country.
Barnabas may have been another. He was from Cyprus, but he owned land in Jerusalem, or at least sold a parcel he owned and gave the money to the apostles in Jerusalem. He met Paul in Jerusalem and knew enough to take Paul to meet with the council there. Being a Levite, it's very likely he frequented Jerusalem as time and the limits of travel in those days permitted and had apparently heard and believed the gospel in Jerusalem. His being a Levite and Saul being a Pharisee, it's quite possible the two of them had been in a same crowd hearing Jesus preach (and possibly been among the groups of Jewish leaders that came to test Jesus). Nicodemus had heard Jesus before coming clandestinely to speak to him. Barnabas, of course, did not go back solely to Cyprus, but to many places accompanying Paul. Joseph was from Arimathea. While that's not a different country, it is outside of Jerusalem.
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SC Senate Passes Bill Banning Affirmative Care For Minors

I think they know their own ideas and feelings better than anyone else.

Great.

This is why they aren't required to get a diagnosis, or psychotherapy, or any sort of medical evaluation that might result in them not getting the hormones or puberty blockers they want.

This is why children are walking into gender clinics with their parents and walking out with prescriptions.
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The New and Improved No-Straw-Man Challenge

I think the issue comes down to what’s meant by governed. It doesn’t mean controlling every action of man, as if pulling strings. It does mean to ordain all things that come to pass. And if you read all of chapter 16, not just a couple of paragraphs that you found on the internet, you’ll see that Calvin in no way presupposes that God sits in heaven and directs every movement as a puppet master. He does use plenty of scripture that indicates that God is in complete control, though.
That is double-talk. To ordain things come to pass when you have all power is forcing as we cannot do otherwise. No scripture says that God decrees or ordains everything that comes to pass - that is fatalism derived from Augustine and Calvin.

The following shows that Calvin's God is a forcer who sits on His throne and commands the devil and people do evil. Calvin's God is not holy and contradicts James 1:13. According to Calvin, the devil and people cannot even conceive evil unless God commands it.

“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)​
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A glimpse at our Eastern & Western Christian Churches

Firstly, you are engaging in a strawman: I never claimed the churches were in full communion. They are however in limited communion, and the articles I linked to include provisions for the concelebration of the liturgy by the bishops of both churches, which would put them in full communion. It is only because churches like Constantinople (although Antioch severed communion with Constantinople back in 2014 or 2015), and perhaps churches who they have more important relations with, such as Georgia and possibly Jerusalem, whose relations with Antioch have recovered thanks to the efforts of the Moscow Patriarchate, and likewise on the Oriental Orthodox side, objections from the Ethiopian Orthodox, whose powerful monastic communities view the Eastern Orthodox as Nestorians (a mirror image of some of our Athonite monks who incorrectly categorize the Oriental Orthodox as Monophysites).

The Antiochian and Syriac Orthodox church have recognized each other’s teaching. One cannot, under any circumstance, convert from Antiochian to Syriac Orthodox or from Syriac Orthodox to Antiochian Orthodox. Members of either church can receive the sacraments in the other church as needed. Members of either church can serve as godparents to children from either church. It is not allowed for non-Orthodox to serve as godparents to the Orthodox.

Additionally, regarding the fourth ecumenical council, it is a non-issue, because the Christology of the Oriental Orthodox churches stresses, like our own, that the humanity and divinity of our Lord were united hypostatically in the Incarnation without change, confusion, separation or division. Further proof of Oriental Orthodox Christological Orthodoxy can be found in the fact that it was Mor Severus of Antioch who composed the Christological hymn par excellence, Ho Monogenes, and this hymn is sung at the beginning of every Syriac Orthodox liturgy. We sing it in a comparatively less noteworthy place, after the Second Antiphon. The story that Justinian composed it is patently false, since there is no Eastern Orthodox saint more despised among the Syriac Orthodox than Justinian; he initially pursued very friendly relations with the Syriac Orthodox and married one, Empress Theodora, and embraced the Theopaschite Christology of St. Severus. Later, he changed his mind, embraced the borderline-heretical system known as Apthartodocetism, and began arresting and executing Syriac Orthodox bishops; only Mor Jacob bar Addai was able to escape with the help of Empress Theodora. It was during the former period of friendliness, when Justinian personally anathematized Theodore of Mopsuestia and certain writings of Theodoret, that he also added Ho Monogenes to the Byzantine synaxis.

Now, some Armenians claim that Ho Monogenes was composed by St. Athanasius, but given its absence from fourth and fifth century liturgical manuscripts from the Church of Alexandria such as the Euchologion of St. Serapion of Thmuis, I find this doubtful; the Armenians have a strong veneration for St. Athanasius, which is good, but they attribute everything to him, including their one remaining Anaphora, which is actually just an abbreviated version of the Anaphora of St. James. And their liturgy furthermore uses the Byzantine synaxis almost word for word, with Ho Monogenes appearing right after the Second Antiphon, just as in the Byzantine Rite.

The extremely high profile of the hymn in the Syriac Orthodox liturgy and in liturgies derived from it rather is proof that it was, as the Syriac Orthodox claim, Mor Severus, who wrote it, particularly given the obvious Theopaschite perspective of the writer of Ho Monogenes.

By the way, I am going to loop our pious Oriental Orthodox friend @dzheremi into this conversation, since he is a member of the Oriental Orthodox church, and I feel that when people accuse the Oriental Orthodox of heterodoxy, while I should make every effort to defend them, I should also include an Oriental Orthodox Christian.

Of course I myself am extremely comfortable with the Oriental Orthodox and routinely visit their churches with the blessing of my confessor, who like me shares the view that the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox communions are both equally and entirely Orthodox (although I am not sure if I would say that about the Old Calendarists, given their inability to avoid internal schisms).
No. You have been the strawman presenter in this thread, not me.
And "limited communion" is meaningless. Either Churches are in communion or they are not. It is deceptive to state otherwise. And the only clear assurance that one community embraces the 4th Ecumenical Council provisions is to adopt it by whatever the method that all in that community will accept. They need to state their agreement with the 4th EC in an authoritative manner. Simple.
Saying this or that agrees with the 4th EC, even with multiple examples, is not authoritative. The best evidence that two Churches are not in communion is that they are not in communion. That is simple, too.
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Houston-area school board votes to remove 13 chapters from state-approved science textbooks, citing controversial topics

If you - or I - do not know the content of the particular chapters - how can we intelligently speak about the content we do not know? The best is to rely on hearsay (IOW what someone else said or wrote).
Weeell....
1) I'd say the BEST thing to rely on is being able to see the textbook ourselves.
2) This is a discussion thread on the internet. Given the number of conversations had by people who do NOT know the details of, say court cases of presidents, for example, I'd imagine this thread is simply another in a long line of threads where "unqualified people" (by your definition) discuss things in an online forum.
3) If we DO rely on hearsay, should we just listen to ANYONE'S opinion or should we be listening to experts?
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Biden release 14 second challenge to debate Trump - takes 5 times to get it right


President Biden was mocked by critics Wednesday over the number of jump cuts in his 14-second debate challenge to Donald Trump — with one wag on Twitter likening the brief video to “a Claymation film.”​
The video of Biden, 81, was released at 8 a.m. and featured the incumbent taunting the former president to “make my day” by agreeing to a on-one-on debate.​
“In a super short 14 second video, the Biden campaign needed to do 5 jump cuts because (word deleted) Joe couldn’t deliver a clean reading. Total disaster,” Trump campaign official Steven Cheung posted on X.​
Question - if it took him fives time to get a 14 second comment out - how on earth will he handle a debate with no teleprompter?

I don't think Biden will ever actually debate on stage.

It won't happen. Biden made the announcement for after Trump's New York trial... They plan on jailing Trump beforehand is my bet.

Either that or go the full of whatever fancy drugs they can manage and hope for the best... But that's a trainwreck just waiting to happen.
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Houston-area school board votes to remove 13 chapters from state-approved science textbooks, citing controversial topics

If you - or I - do not know the content of the particular chapters - how can we intelligently speak about the content we do not know?
We do know that:

The five textbooks in question also have been approved, in their entirety, by the State Board of Education.

We also know the Texas Board is highly influential with textbook publishers, and leans heavily 'conservative':

Texas: Republican-controlled school board votes against most climate textbooks


U.S. history textbooks could soon be flavored heavily with Texas conservatism

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Why Everyone Needs An AR-15

This is why everyone should not have access to high powered weapons, in fact, no regular civilians should have access to semi or autos, as your deer or pheasant would taste more metallic. I do not own any firearms, cos I do not hunt. But if I did hunt, I would probably own a 0.22, meant for hunting only. These AR weapons are military grade bro. Alright, I'll step out of this thread before the NRA supporters attack.


Columbine, CO: April 20, 1999
View attachment 346329


Why does what kind of gun someone else owns effect you? Obviously guns don't cause gun violence or anything because if they did we would all be dead because there are hundreds of millions of more guns than Americans.

The thing is we wouldn't need any gun control at all if we had a decent society. The problem is people see gun violence and say "people shouldn't own semi automatic weapons". Ok, even if you vanish every single gun in America right now you know what's left? All the criminals, crazies and dopeheads that want to hurt other people will still be here wanting to hurt others.

We need mentally ill people control, criminal control, drug abuser control because they are the ones picking up guns and using them to hurt other people. To do anything else will not make us any safer. If you want to fix a problem you have to fix it at the source.
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