Women's Restrictions?

[ChiRho]

"That" kind of dinner party? What kind of a dinner party would that be, Chi Chi? I don't follow.

Hey, if you wanna pray like Benke, go ahead. Just don't waste your time, ink, or paper on my invitation to that kind of dinner party. I wont be coming.


That kind of Yankee Stadium type of party.

 

[SPALATIN]

Hey, if you wanna pray like Benke, go ahead. Just don't waste your time, ink, or paper on my invitation to that kind of dinner party. I wont be coming.


That kind of Yankee Stadium type of party.

Chi Rho,

I hardly think that you are going to be praying with Moslems or Hindus and considering them as equal to Christianity. However, aren't we to be salt and light to the lost? When you pray, you should pray to the One and only God, Father of Christ and in union with the Holy Spirit.

Don't ask them to leave but pray correctly and put no other God's above yours. Benke's mistake was more that he failed to do this, not so much that he was there. Had Benke put Jesus above all others there wouldn't be such a problem in the LC-MS that stems from that event or even earlier.

 

[ChiRho]

Chi Rho,

I hardly think that you are going to be praying with Moslems or Hindus and considering them as equal to Christianity. However, aren't we to be salt and light to the lost? When you pray, you should pray to the One and only God, Father of Christ and in union with the Holy Spirit.

Don't ask them to leave but pray correctly and put no other God's above yours. Benke's mistake was more that he failed to do this, not so much that he was there. Had Benke put Jesus above all others there wouldn't be such a problem in the LC-MS that stems from that event or even earlier.

I dont think you understand what I meant. I will try to be clearer.

My girlfriend's brother graduated from college this summer. In his specific field, there is an abundance of Hindu and Muslim people. Some are his friends. No problem there. But when they came to his celebration dinner, his grandfather stood up and began to pray a universal prayer of thanks. I exited stage left. I was ridiculed by the "christians" for being so disrespectful. All I could think about was the irony of the situation. Who was disrespectful? On to the graduation...

At a state school nonetheless (where church is supposed to be walled from state; whatever that means...actually it just means anything but Christianity), they opened with an invocation. A Jewish Rabbi, stood and prayed. I was trapped between so many people, that I could not leave. So, I gritted my teeth and endured it without reverence. As he finished, Alisha's mom looked right at me and said, "That was so nice, I didn't expect a prayer!" To which I returned, "Yeah, it's not everyday I get to hear the pagan's pray to Satan." She looked at me, puzzled with hate. Then I informed her that, it was no Christian with the long curly sideburns and the funny hat. It was an Orthodox Jew. The family gasped that they all had bowed reverently and prayed with him. Walking to my car at the conclusion of the evening, I realized that my first instinct was the correct one. I should never have gone.

Pax

 

[Protoevangel]

I think that if the so-called "restrictions" were as bad as they are often made out to be (not here, necessarily), you would be in the kitchen making lattes for the men... and snacks too... barefoot!

Not that that would be a bad thing... (See, I'm just still scared to say that anyone might potentially be wrong about anything!)

OK...that really does change the complexion of everything. On second thought maybe choosing that carpet color isn't such a bad idea after all!

Yes, please remember you are from the "other side". You are not permitted to use the word "wrong" here. You are only permitted to post sweet fellowship posts here telling us what great people we are, or asking us questions we can answer so we feel important and loved or admiring us for the "we are right, you are wrong" stance we take on all things. Ah....some days the gift of sarcastic tongues bears more fruit than others.

Dan...ya know you are OK in my book and I won't even blink twice if you say the word "wrong".

You are filled with the Spitit Rose! The gift is flowing like a hershey bar on a car's dashboard on a hot Georgia Summer day!

I wasn't implicating the LCMS/WELS people. It is the rule itself that is bizarre, and which I was using as a springboard for my budding career as a comedian. I suppose I shouldn't leave my day job? -->

 

[Protoevangel]

I think that if the so-called "restrictions" were as bad as they are often made out to be (not here, necessarily), you would be in the kitchen making lattes for the men... and snacks too... barefoot!

There are a couple Bible verses that refer to this, and I can only think of this one for right now.

Maybe you'all can help me out?

Ro 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.

I hope you don't think I was being critical.

I do disagree with some aspects of the practice, but illustrating my disagreement was not my intent when making that post. I was meaning to say that things cannot possibly be as "bad" as some people try to make it out to be (mainly ELCA people I know). If the WELS women agree that only men are mandated by Scripture to vote etc. I am sure they do not begrudge the cross they carry. Unlike when I disagree with the ELCA on an issue, I recognize WELS as being confessional, Lutheran, and Christian in it's reasoning and presuppositions. We can discuss these issues "in house" as it were. Discussing with other ELCA people, on the other hand, I feel much more like a missionary brining God's Word to the lost.

 

[SPALATIN]

You are filled with the Spitit Rose! The gift is flowing like a hershey bar on a car's dashboard on a hot Georgia Summer day!

I wasn't implicating the LCMS/WELS people. It is the rule itself that is bizarre, and which I was using as a springboard for my budding career as a comedian. I suppose I shouldn't leave my day job? -->

I agree. I think Rose is filled with the Spitit too.

 

[Jenna]

There are many women who feel very comfortable with their husband speaking for their family, when it comes to church decisions. If he is the priest of your home, a part of your one-flesh, it is reasonable for many women to trust the decisions of the man who has authority to lead. Not only that, it goes a long way to cultivating submissiveness in a woman's heart if her husband loves her, so she will know that what she says to him in private will possibly influence any major decisions.

Here is a question that comes to mind. Is it a restriction if a woman believes the same and adopts a church practice that she believes to acceptable and/or not in conflict with scripture?

....just rambling....

 

[Jim47]

I hope you don't think I was being critical.

I do disagree with some aspects of the practice, but illustrating my disagreement was not my intent when making that post. I was meaning to say that things cannot possibly be as "bad" as some people try to make it out to be (mainly ELCA people I know). If the WELS women agree that only men are mandated by Scripture to vote etc. I am sure they do not begrudge the cross they carry. Unlike when I disagree with the ELCA on an issue, I recognize WELS as being confessional, Lutheran, and Christian in it's reasoning and presuppositions. We can discuss these issues "in house" as it were. Discussing with other ELCA people, on the other hand, I feel much more like a missionary brining God's Word to the lost.

No Sir! I had no problem with what you said. I think its just a much deeper subject then most people realize.

Scripture can be very confusing on certain issues if you look at only a hand full of verses and form a decision.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

I'm in LCMS and thinking about going to WELS or ELS just because of the conservative stance and confessionalism. Truthfully I'm not against women voters but Walther and Luther and the WELS, ELS support no voting for women. I've read extensively the reasons and all I can do is support the decision. I've seen too many divisions in ALL the so called Lutheran denominations and can only say that even though I might not condone all the precepts of one or the other, I have to support one no matter what I believe. Otherwise more descension will prevail again and fragmentation will grind on.

 

[Jim47]

I'm in LCMS and thinking about going to WELS or ELS just because of the conservative stance and confessionalism. Truthfully I'm not against women voters but Walther and Luther and the WELS, ELS support no voting for women. I've read extensively the reasons and all I can do is support the decision. I've seen too many divisions in ALL the so called Lutheran denominations and can only say that even though I might not condone all the precepts of one or the other, I have to support one no matter what I believe. Otherwise more descension will prevail again and fragmentation will grind on.

That is a very accurate description of just exactly what we have to do.

 

[KagomeShuko]

I agree. I think Rose is filled with the Spitit too.

Rose is definitely filled with the Spirit (even if we do disagree on things)! Having met her personally, I say this with full confidence!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[SPALATIN]

Rose is definitely filled with the Spirit (even if we do disagree on things)! Having met her personally, I say this with full confidence!

Stein Auf!
Bridget

Hey I was making fun of Danhead's spelling typo. he's the one who spelled
Spirit as Spitit.

 

[stlsweeti]

There are many women who feel very comfortable with their husband speaking for their family, when it comes to church decisions. If he is the priest of your home, a part of your one-flesh, it is reasonable for many women to trust the decisions of the man who has authority to lead. Not only that, it goes a long way to cultivating submissiveness in a woman's heart if her husband loves her, so she will know that what she says to him in private will possibly influence any major decisions.

.

Ditto Jenna

 

[dusky_tresses]

I actually had a conversation with a WELS pastor at school when I had walked by their table. I'm kinda interested in catholicism but I still have my "protestant ways" haha. He explained to me that in church affairs, which are NOT secular, they try to follow the Bible's precepts on male headship. It doesn't mean that women can't be leaders, but in Christian marriage, church affairs and leadership, God had ordained men to take upon that leadership role. Is that really the summarization of the restriction? Should it really be called a restriction, I mean it's not like WELS is saying women have to cover their hair and not utter a sound in the church. I've been to a New Testament Christian church that believed that and in my mind, THAT is much more of a severe restriction than following the Biblical commandment that the man is to be the head such as Jesus is the head.

 

[Jim47]

I actually had a conversation with a WELS pastor at school when I had walked by their table. I'm kinda interested in catholicism but I still have my "protestant ways" haha. He explained to me that in church affairs, which are NOT secular, they try to follow the Bible's precepts on male headship. It doesn't mean that women can't be leaders, but in Christian marriage, church affairs and leadership, God had ordained men to take upon that leadership role. Is that really the summarization of the restriction? Should it really be called a restriction, I mean it's not like WELS is saying women have to cover their hair and not utter a sound in the church. I've been to a New Testament Christian church that believed that and in my mind, THAT is much more of a severe restriction than following the Biblical commandment that the man is to be the head such as Jesus is the head.

Kinda neat to see an old thread revived!

I'm not sure if I can improve any on what has already been discussed, but I'll try a simple explaination.

WELS believe that only men can preach, hold office on the church council or vote.

Women can, and are encouraged to serve in many other ways. In our church women can serve with men counting the offerings, teaching Sunday school, serving on Alter guild, doing Mission work, serving on Mission committees and attending seminars for them, and any number of other things that does not place them in direct leadership/headship over a man.

While we had our last Pastor, when ever it came time for an upcoming voters meeting, He would have the elders call all the widows of the congregation to see what their opinions were on any issues at hand. We as men of the congregation are taught to keep our wives in mind when voting, because God has instructed us to love and care for them just as Jesus cared for His Church. Its not a "men lord it over women thing". The men have agonized for many long hours in meetings over certain issues. And when it comes to things like picking new carpet or paint, we all listen to the ladies.

Yes, we have some women who look down on this belief, but I think in there hearts they really believe it, they just have trouble accepting it, but do abide by it. All in all, we have a very peacful congregation.

 

[archigeek]

I've been a member of both ELCA and LCMS (but not WELS) churches and truthfully I found wonderful things in both churches.

One of the wonderful things to me about the ELCS is the lack of restriction of members who wanted to serve. Sure, in the LCMS anyone can serve, but we restrict members from serving in specific ways without consideration of their ability to do so. I have spent a lot more time as a member of a conservative LCMS church and found it to be very rewarding, but I find myself asking the question, "how can it be right to tell someone not to serve God in the way they are most able"?

Just what is the logic and the Biblical basis for it? I don't seem to recall what it was and it makes no sense to me at this point in my life.

In this day and age there are certainly women with the ability to lead, and the ability to preach as well as any man. Is it not wrong to restrict them from serving God in the way that they are most able?

 

[Jim47]

I've been a member of both ELCA and LCMS (but not WELS) churches and truthfully I found wonderful things in both churches.

One of the wonderful things to me about the ELCS is the lack of restriction of members who wanted to serve. Sure, in the LCMS anyone can serve, but we restrict members from serving in specific ways without consideration of their ability to do so. I have spent a lot more time as a member of a conservative LCMS church and found it to be very rewarding, but I find myself asking the question, "how can it be right to tell someone not to serve God in the way they are most able"?

Just what is the logic and the Biblical basis for it? I don't seem to recall what it was and it makes no sense to me at this point in my life.

In this day and age there are certainly women with the ability to lead, and the ability to preach as well as any man. Is it not wrong to restrict them from serving God in the way that they are most able?

I'm quite tired right now, but perhaps others will be able to better ansswer your question. Here are some scriptures that address your question, there are many more besides these.


1Ti 2:11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Col 3:18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

*** 2:1 You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine. 2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.

*** 2:3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

*** 2:6 Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled. 7 In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness 8 and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.

*** 2:9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10 and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.

*** 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

*** 2:15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

 

[SPALATIN]

I've been a member of both ELCA and LCMS (but not WELS) churches and truthfully I found wonderful things in both churches.

One of the wonderful things to me about the ELCS is the lack of restriction of members who wanted to serve. Sure, in the LCMS anyone can serve, but we restrict members from serving in specific ways without consideration of their ability to do so. I have spent a lot more time as a member of a conservative LCMS church and found it to be very rewarding, but I find myself asking the question, "how can it be right to tell someone not to serve God in the way they are most able"?

Just what is the logic and the Biblical basis for it? I don't seem to recall what it was and it makes no sense to me at this point in my life.

In this day and age there are certainly women with the ability to lead, and the ability to preach as well as any man. Is it not wrong to restrict them from serving God in the way that they are most able?

Certainly the verses that Jim gives to your post are adequate. I will say this. Since when is ability itself the precursor to serviing God. Perhaps you might look to what Luther says about vocation and how we witness within that. It is not the women's ability to preach that keeps her from doing it but on what God commands in his word.

 

[dusky_tresses]

I've moved past the whole women cant preach and just accepted that as God's Word. But MANY other denoms in Christianity have and follow the same thing.

But the thing is a lot of people try to take that into secular affairs. Just becuase a woman cant be president of a church group doesnt mean she wouldnt be able to be a CEO in a company, or be a doctor, or anything else like that?

 

[Flipper]

I'm quite tired right now, but perhaps others will be able to better ansswer your question. Here are some scriptures that address your question, there are many more besides these.


1Ti 2:11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Col 3:18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

*** 2:1 You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine. 2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.

*** 2:3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

*** 2:6 Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled. 7 In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness 8 and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.

*** 2:9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10 and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.

*** 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

*** 2:15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

I thought historically, Paul was speaking to specific women in specific problem churches.

I also don't think 2:9 was directed to women - but can mean an employer/employee relationship that we are all subject to if we work.