Why is earth's AGE important to you?

[oikonomia]

" Miracle " is defined as an event that is inexplicable by natural or scientific laws.

Something out - rather all things - out of NOTHING - Isn't that miraculous? We can't do it!

We have laws of nature and those laws were created by God.

Amen. I agree.
Even His decreeing such laws is astounding.

The problem with your argument is it tells us that He decided to circumvent His own laws and create with the fake age of milliions of years already built into a 6000 year time frame.

Did I mention millions of years? I thought I mean to convey some unknown period of time prior to the six days God "made" heaven and earth. I don't know how long in our present measurement methods was.

I dont think God wants us to chase a lie so it would be better to glorify Him through the unveiling of His creation through the truth in science.

Hmm. . . "Chase a lie".
It is important to some dear Christians that they can counter current and shifting science explanations to defend a view of Genesis.
It is important to them that dinosaurs are not seen as living and dying before a time they think all death came to living things from Adam.

Some dear ones say Romans says death came through Adam. (Rom. 5:12)
Did Paul mean death came to everything like insects only through Adam?

Noah coated the inside of the ark with pitch.
Make yourself an ark of gopher wood; you shall make rooms in the ark and shall cover it within and without with pitch. (Gen 6:14)

Pitch is a petroleum product in the earth indicating dead things long passed.
I know it was proposed that this pitch was from tree sap.
I think it was that oily stuff which latter we are told was in pits.

I'm going with a pre-Adamic world that was judged and rendered waste and void of Genesis 1:1.
Latter in the Bible we learn of a being of great authority that God judged because he sought
to oppose the authority of God and the holiness of God.

The number of years of the universe is of secondary importance to the church.
In order that this enemy be crushed under the feet of the prevailing church, his tactics, history, origin needs to be exposed.
Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. (Rom. 6:20)

It is matter of spiritual warfare that is important. That is to know the enemy.
Does the enemy want to rob man of the knowledge that God is the CREATOR? Yes he does.
And we should stand against that.

But he does more than that. He obscures his origin, past authority, past dominion, failed career.
As long as Christians think the main thing is that God take forgiven sinners off to a happy place, Heaven, he cares less.
When the church grasps that God created man to replace this failed authority on the earth, Satan keeps men blind all the more.

When I read the words "and let them have dominion" I sometimes emphasize like this "and let THEM have dominion".
The previous ruler on God's behalf has been fired. He is to be judged. A new creation out of the dust - man is now here.
And God says "let THEM have dominion" over all the earth. His plan has not changed.

A pre-Adamic era is important to understand for this reason and little else.
My interest is not that we know how many years the universe has existed.
My more important matter is that the the Anointed Cherub who previously ruled be as exposed as necessary.

In your next post to me you can tell me WHERE in the garden of Eden was this Anointed Cherub who became Satan?

Ezk 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord Jehovah, O you who sealed up perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty,
Ezk 28:13You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, diamond, chrysolite, onyx, jasper, sapphire, carbuncle, and emerald, with gold. The workmanship of your tambourines and your pipes was prepared with you on the day that you were created.
Ezk 28:14You were the anointed cherub who covered the Ark; indeed I set you, so that you were upon the holy mountain of God; you walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezk 28:15You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you

Do you believe that concurrently WITH Adam, in the garden, another grand and glorious being was endowed with great reigning authority?
This is confusion. This being being created an put in Eden concurrently with Adam during the six days is a mistaken understanding.
This must have been a PREVIOUS Eden.

And, the prince of Tyre is not the king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28. The king of Tyre is a figure pointing to Satan. This was the prophetic past the prophet spoke of. If you run after young earth interpretations and this will likely be obscured when it is meant to be clear.
But in thier interest to have Satan having all his career during the six days this revelation of the prophetic past must be negated by them.
The same problem occurs with their treatment of Isaiah 14 and its Daystar.

Both passages point to the origin of the enemy of God and the church.
Other things are important besides a 6,000 year old universe dogma.

We can not deny the great strides being made through DNA especially in the field of forensics! The truth is in DNA and scientists are able to age archeological findings through it. So we can not say it works in forensics but not on archeological sites.

What I focus on here is the nature of man's creation.
Psalm 8 being a Psalm about creation strongly implies the creation of man had also the purpose to execute the advasaries of God.

O Jehovah our Lord, / How excellent is Your name / In all the earth, / You who have set Your glory over the heavens!
Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings / You have established strength / Because of Your adversaries, / To stop the enemy and the avenger. (vs. 1,2)

When human beings were created there was an Avenger and his adversaries. They had already been judged. They awaited
execution. Man was created to replace this failed dominion and side with God for their execution.
The human being one with God were created to still the enemy and stop him. Even the babes and sucklings among human beings were created for this.

Satan knows this if God's people do not. Satan would keep them ignorant.
He will accept that this new dusty creation just wants to be loved, forgiven and "go to heaven".
On thier way to "going to heaven" some argue that the Bible proves a young 6,000 year old universe. And that is that!

The battle from the beginning has always been over who will have authority over the EARTH.
Boy am I ever verbose. Thanks for reading down to this point.

We should keep in mind that Adam did not just "come into existence " he came from dust and though we do not know how He made Adam from dust , we do know He made him in His image and breathed in life with a soul.

Yes.
My point here is that this dusty being was an affront to Satan's pride.
How can THIS being replace him in his past deputy reigning for God?

Satan and his failed opposition party hate this dusty creation, man, to the uttermost.
And they know God will use this dusty being eventually to put Satan, demons, fallen angels, and the unbelieving rebellious humans into the lake of fire.

Please notice. On every day of the six days God said what He had prepared was good, EXCEPT for the second day.
The ancient rebels still occupied the air. The firmament above the earth STILL had swarms of the beings of the previous pre-Adamic age waiting to derail God's plans.

And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. (Gen. 1:8)

Only on Day #2 He did not say what He had made "it was good".
The spirit which now operates in the sons of disobedience was there in the air.
That was not good. This was the evil one in the air. This one Adam was to guard the God's interests against.
Adam failed. Instead he led away under his evil illegitimate renegade authority.

In which you once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience; (Eph. 2:2)

This one appeared in the garden of Eden in the guise of a lying serpent.
He preemptively acted to stave off his own execution.

In conclusion, related to the OP, there is no risk to our Christian faith if one decides to take 6 days represented as time periods rather than literal days.
Blessings.

Thankyou for your interesting thoughts on this.

 

[notworthconsideration]

I see it this way. What only was essential for us to know He revealed to us.

Gerald Shroeder of MIT, an Orthodox Jewish physics professor proposed something like this in his book - "The Science of God."

What only was essential for us to know He revealed to us.

…and yet, we continue to look beyond before we look within…

 

[didactics]

Please notice. On every day of the six days God said what He had prepared was good, EXCEPT for the second day.
The ancient rebels still occupied the air. The firmament above the earth STILL had swarms of the beings of the previous pre-Adamic age waiting to derail God's plans.

And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. (Gen. 1:8)

Only on Day #2 He did not say what He had made "it was good".
The spirit which now operates in the sons of disobedience was there in the air.
That was not good. This was the evil one in the air. This one Adam was to guard the God's interests against.
Adam failed. Instead he led away under his evil illegitimate renegade authority.

In which you once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience; (Eph. 2:2)

This one appeared in the garden of Eden in the guise of a lying serpent.
He preemptively acted to stave off his own execution.

I'd like to respond to this one point even though it was directed to Maria. This is an interesting interpretation. I haven't ever noticed that nothing is mentioned about the 2nd day being good. Could it be however, that nothing is said about this because the firmament is not something you can see? Because the wording about the other days is "God saw that it was good". The firmament: isn't it just an atmosphere? You can't see air.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Why is the age of the earth an important matter to you (if it is)?

What is the most important thing that knowing the age of the earth will tell you?

In two of my gardens, I have nearly a hundred rocks that are very similar to each other except for their sizes, which vary considerably. I know for certain that these rocks were not created in my garden because I personally brought them to my property from a location miles away. I also know for certain that these rocks were not created in my garden because that would not have been chemically possible. Furthermore, I know for certain that these rocks were not created in the location where I found them because that also would not have been chemically possible. So—how did the rocks get to be where I found them? I found the answer to that question in a museum of natural history. The rocks were created many hundreds of miles up the coast from where I found them, and the movement of a tectonic plate brought them down the coast to where I found them. This movement of the plate is consistent with a huge amount of data for which there is no other explanation.

The universe is 13.7 billion years old, but the earth is only 4.54 billion years old. Furthermore, these rocks in my garden are only 95 million years old. These three different ages tell us that God did not create the earth in six literal days but rather over a time of billions of years.

God is not a liar, and the Bible is not a work of fiction—but a collection of ancient writings given to us by God in languages very different from English. Moreover, the first eleven chapters of Genesis were written in a genre of literature hugely different from that of the rest of the book, making the interpretation of those eleven chapters exceedingly difficult. Indeed, Andrew Louth has given to us a full volume of selected quotes from the writings of the Fathers of the Church on Genesis 1-11 beginning with Clement of Rome late in the first century up through Theophylact of Ohrid in 1100. St. Augustine spent much of his adult life attempting to reconcile the first three chapters of Genesis with what he could be plainly see to be the reality in which he lived. Late in his life (415 A.D.), he published a 400 page unfinished work entitled De Genesi ad litteram (The Literal Meaning of Genesis) in which he strenuously attempted to do that which is, in fact, impossible.

In 1984, Claus Westermann’s 636-page commentary on the first eleven chapters of the Hebrew text of Genesis was published in English, being a translation of the German edition of 1974. This is a highly technical work written for readers who are fluent in Biblical Hebrew (the Hebrew words are not translated) and who are seeking very detailed and accurate information of value in interpreting Genesis from an academic point of view.

In 1996, Kenneth A. Mathews’ 528-page commentary on Genesis 1-11:26 was published. This is a mid-level work written for readers who are not fluent in Biblical Hebrew (the Hebrew words are translated) and who are seeking much less detailed information of value in interpreting Genesis from a Southern Baptist point of view.

In 2022, Mathews’ 622-page commentary on Genesis 1-11 was published, and Mathews tells us in his preface to this volume that it is a revision of his earlier volume written to reflect the many recent studies on Genesis 1-11 that were published since 1996.

 

[oikonomia]

I'd like to respond to this one point even though it was directed to Maria.

Sure. Fire away.

This is an interesting interpretation. I haven't ever noticed that nothing is mentioned about the 2nd day being good. Could it be however, that nothing is said about this because the firmament is not something you can see? Because the wording about the other days is "God saw that it was good". The firmament: isn't it just an atmosphere? You can't see air.

Well, I would say God sees it all.
I would say nothing is hidden to Him.

Psalm 139:11,12 - And if I say, Surely darkness will cover me, / And the light around me will be night;
Even the darkness is not dark to You, / And night shines like day; / The darkness is like the light.

Job 38:16 - Have the gates of death been revealed to you, or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?

What doesn't God see?

I'll give you that He doesn't have Moses write "God saw that it was bad."
It is just rather silent about the matter.

A possible push back might be that God saw EVERYTHING that He made was very good. (Gen. 1:38)
But I think what was "very good" was that Adam was placed as God's deputy authority over it all.

And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.

He was to guard the garden. Guard it from WHAT? Guard it from WHO?
We have to conclude Adam was also to have dominion over a more subtle creation who was there slandering God and twisting the truth
with a LIE.

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other animal of the field that Jehovah God had made. And he said to the woman, Did God really say, You shall not eat of any tree of the garden? (Gen. 3:1)

"Adam, we don't care how crafty this creature was. We don't care how perhaps subtle or beautiful this being. YOU were ordained to have
dominion of EVERY creature. YOU were appointed to guard God's interests on the earth."

This subtle being was somehow related to the evil spirit in the air which remained from a previous overthrow.
They helplessly looked on with interest to this new situation. Sought opportunity to thwart God's new arrangement.
He was the Avenger filled with vengence for the Creator depriving him of his dominion.

God would not deal directly with a creature, God would deal with one rebellion creature with another obedient creature.
Therefore God not wanting to directly put Satan down, created a triangular situation.

God is at the top of this triangle. On one side is Satan. On the other side is man.
Which way man decides to choose to go will determine things.
On one hand man can remain under God's government.
On the other hand man may choose to join the opposition party.

The rest is history as far as Adam's choice.
But fortunately it is impossible to defeat God.
And Christ, the second man - the last Adam came to head up the new race and fully accomplish the execution of Satan.

The writer of Hebrews alludes to Psalm 8 a creation Psalm, showing that Jesus is what God meant by man.
You have made Him a little inferior to the angels; You have crowned Him with glory and honor and have set Him over the works of Your hands;

He 2:8You have subjected all things under His feet.” For in subjecting all things to Him, He left nothing unsubject to Him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to Him,

He 2:9But we see Jesus, who was made a little inferior to the angels because of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death on behalf of everything.

He 2:10For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Since therefore the children have shared in blood and flesh, He also Himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death He might destroy him who has the might of death, that is, the devil, (v. 14)

Have you ever read this life changing book - "The Glorious Church" by Brother Watchman Nee?
See if starting on a few pages you are able to put it down. I couldn't when I started reading it years ago.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books/reader.php?id=-wEriV1dwqao

(Sorry Above & Beyond. I couldn't resist)

 

[oikonomia]

In two of my gardens, I have nearly a hundred rocks that are very similar to each other except for their sizes, which vary considerably.

Hi Princeton Guy. I lived in that lovely town for nearly a decade in the 60s.

I know for certain that these rocks were not created in my garden because I personally brought them to my property from a location miles away. I also know for certain that these rocks were not created in my garden because that would not have been chemically possible. Furthermore, I know for certain that these rocks were not created in the location where I found them because that also would not have been chemically possible. So—how did the rocks get to be where I found them? I found the answer to that question in a museum of natural history. The rocks were created many hundreds of miles up the coast from where I found them, and the movement of a tectonic plate brought them down the coast to where I found them. This movement of the plate is consistent with a huge amount of data for which there is no other explanation.

I find myself musing on rocks when I see them in a stream, Each rock a story of long ago, for sure.

The universe is 13.7 billion years old, but the earth is only 4.54 billion years old. Furthermore, these rocks in my garden are only 95 million years old. These three different ages tell us that God did not create the earth in six literal days but rather over a time of billions of years.

What is important to me mostly, is that the church needs to see the ancient nature and origina of our arch-enemy.

God is not a liar, and the Bible is not a work of fiction—but a collection of ancient writings given to us by God in languages very different from English. Moreover, the first eleven chapters of Genesis were written in a genre of literature hugely different from that of the rest of the book, making the interpretation of those eleven chapters exceedingly difficult. Indeed, Andrew Louth has given to us a full volume of selected quotes from the writings of the Fathers of the Church on Genesis 1-11 beginning with Clement of Rome late in the first century up through Theophylact of Ohrid in 1100. St. Augustine spent much of his adult life attempting to reconcile the first three chapters of Genesis with what he could be plainly see to be the reality in which he lived. Late in his life (415 A.D.), he published a 400 page unfinished work entitled De Genesi ad litteram (The Literal Meaning of Genesis) in which he strenuously attempted to do that which is, in fact, impossible.

The number of basic matters to human history covered in the first 11 chapters of Genesis is astounding.
I have challenged skeptics of the Bible to tell of any other ONE book which in as many words as in chapters 1 to 11 reveal such critical
matters about history.

The origin of space, time, matter.
The origin of man.
The origin of marriage.
The origin of sinning.
The origin of human death.
The origin of clothing.
The origin of worship.
The first family.
The first murder.
The first city,
The origin of human government.
The origin of languages.
etc. etc. etc.

In as economical a way, I know no other single writing which covers so many basic problems of our existence.
I'm persuaded that it is the speaking of God to us.

In 1984, Claus Westermann’s 636-page commentary on the first eleven chapters of the Hebrew text of Genesis was published in English, being a translation of the German edition of 1974. This is a highly technical work written for readers who are fluent in Biblical Hebrew (the Hebrew words are not translated) and who are seeking very detailed and accurate information of value in interpreting Genesis from an academic point of view.

In 1996, Kenneth A. Mathews’ 528-page commentary on Genesis 1-11:26 was published. This is a mid-level work written for readers who are not fluent in Biblical Hebrew (the Hebrew words are translated) and who are seeking much less detailed information of value in interpreting Genesis from a Southern Baptist point of view.

In 2022, Mathews’ 622-page commentary on Genesis 1-11 was published, and Mathews tells us in his preface to this volume that it is a revision of his earlier volume written to reflect the many recent studies on Genesis 1-11 that were published since 1996.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Another Chrtistian put it this way: The Bible is God's revelation, science is man's invention.

This plays on a category error, pitting science against the Bible. The former is human interpretation, the latter is divine revelation—two categorically different things. The proper contrast would be either science and theology (both human interpretations), or nature and scripture (both divine revelations). Consider the following quote from Robert C. Newman (emphasis mine):

As far as my view of the integration of science and theology is concerned, I have a few comments to make. Initially, I like the phrase "science and theology." It is common in these discussions to talk instead of "science and the Bible," and while our concern in this book is that our theology be truly biblical, the terms "science" and "Bible" are not parallel. Science can be understood as a method, an institution, or a body of knowledge. In this it is parallel to "theology" rather than to "Bible." Science is a method or institution that investigates nature, and it is also the body of knowledge that results from this study. Theology (at least biblical or exegetical theology) is a method or institution that investigates the Bible and also the resultant body of knowledge. Theology studies God's special revelation in Scripture, while science studies God's general revelation in nature. If biblical Christianity is true (as I believe), then the God who cannot lie has revealed himself both in nature and in Scripture. Thus, both science and theology should provide input to an accurate view of reality, and we may expect them to overlap in many areas.
​

Robert C. Newman, "Progressive Creationism," in J. P. Moreland and John Mark Reynolds, eds., Three Views on Creation and Evolution (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1999), 117.

 

[atpollard]

Why is the age of the earth an important matter to you (if it is)?

What is the most important thing that knowing the age of the earth will tell you?

How many candles to place on the Earth Day Birthday Cake!

 

[didactics]

And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.

He was to guard the garden. Guard it from WHAT? Guard it from WHO?
We have to conclude Adam was also to have dominion over a more subtle creation who was there slandering God and twisting the truth
with a LIE.

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other animal of the field that Jehovah God had made. And he said to the woman, Did God really say, You shall not eat of any tree of the garden? (Gen. 3:1)

"Adam, we don't care how crafty this creature was. We don't care how perhaps subtle or beautiful this being. YOU were ordained to have
dominion of EVERY creature. YOU were appointed to guard God's interests on the earth."

This subtle being was somehow related to the evil spirit in the air which remained from a previous overthrow.
They helplessly looked on with interest to this new situation. Sought opportunity to thwart God's new arrangement.
He was the Avenger filled with vengence for the Creator depriving him of his dominion.

God would not deal directly with a creature, God would deal with one rebellion creature with another obedient creature.
Therefore God not wanting to directly put Satan down, created a triangular situation.

God is at the top of this triangle. On one side is Satan. On the other side is man.
Which way man decides to choose to go will determine things.
On one hand man can remain under God's government.
On the other hand man may choose to join the opposition party.

The rest is history as far as Adam's choice.
But fortunately it is impossible to defeat God.
And Christ, the second man - the last Adam came to head up the new race and fully accomplish the execution of Satan.

The writer of Hebrews alludes to Psalm 8 a creation Psalm, showing that Jesus is what God meant by man.
You have made Him a little inferior to the angels; You have crowned Him with glory and honor and have set Him over the works of Your hands;

He 2:8You have subjected all things under His feet.” For in subjecting all things to Him, He left nothing unsubject to Him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to Him,

He 2:9But we see Jesus, who was made a little inferior to the angels because of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death on behalf of everything.

He 2:10For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Since therefore the children have shared in blood and flesh, He also Himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death He might destroy him who has the might of death, that is, the devil, (v. 14)

Have you ever read this life changing book - "The Glorious Church" by Brother Watchman Nee?
See if starting on a few pages you are able to put it down. I couldn't when I started reading it years ago.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books/reader.php?id=-wEriV1dwqao

(Sorry Above & Beyond. I couldn't resist)

This sounds like the gap theory to me.

"a form of old Earth creationism that posits that the six-yom creation period, as described in the Book of Genesis, involved six literal 24-hour days (light being "day" and dark "night" as God specified), but that there was a gap of time between two distinct creations in the first and the second verses of Genesis, which the theory states explains many scientific observations, including the age of the Earth." (wikipedia)


But my objection is that Adam can simply be a guard against an unknown enemy. In just the same way that angels were created as guards to begin with, as they are called cherubim. The first reference to the "cherubim" is in Gen. 3:24. Satan was once a cherub (see Ezek. 28:14-16).

 

[Phoneman-777]

Why is the age of the earth an important matter to you (if it is)?

What is the most important thing that knowing the age of the earth will tell you?

Truth keeps us from error. If we know everything was created in six days and God rested on the seventh day, we won't be deceived into following the Beast which says the first 11 chapters of Genesis are allegorical.

 

[oikonomia]

Truth keeps us from error. If we know everything was created in six days and God rested on the seventh day, we won't be deceived into following the Beast which says the first 11 chapters of Genesis are allegorical.

Well, I do not want to have anything to do with the Beast.

But God can use historical things to also carried allegorical meaning.
Am I right that is it not always an either / or situation?

The ark of Noah, I take as historical.
I take it also as a symbol of Christ and the church.

Manna from heaven, I take as historical.
I also take it as a symbol of Christ the bread which came down from heavem in John chapter 6.

The ark of the covenant, I take as historical.
I also take it as a symbol of Christ.

The Tower of Babel I take as a historical artifact.
I also take it to represent the entire human history of man declaring independence from God.

 

[oikonomia]

This sounds like the gap theory to me.

Yes some call it Gap Theory.

"a form of old Earth creationism that posits that the six-yom creation period,

If you want to call my view Gap Theory, it is not to be confused with Day Age Theory.
I do think the six days are six typical solar days.

Day Age Interpretation is that each day (yom) represents a epoch of longer time. Astrophysicist and Christian Hugh Ross is big on this.
"Reasons to Believe" is his outfit.
I teach that there is an interval of unspecified time between when God created heaven and earth in the beginning and the events of His
making a new world for man in six days.

as described in the Book of Genesis, involved six literal 24-hour days (light being "day" and dark "night" as God specified), but that there was a gap of time between two distinct creations in the first and the second verses of Genesis, which the theory states explains many scientific observations, including the age of the Earth." (wikipedia)

Gap Theory presented by some, like Author Custance, G.H. Pember, Donald Barnhouse, respect the six days are indeed six typical solar days of 24 hours.

The Interval of unspecified time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 is different from Day Age interpretation.
If some employ a combination of both at the same time, you may lump the two views together.
I don't know who lumps the two matters together.

I am happy with the obvious (to me) viewpoint that Moses meant to convey six 24 hour days.

If you ask some YEC readers HOW to they get the idea that the serpent is or is related to Satan,
they would quickly indicate that that undestanding is gathered from other parts of the Bible.

Then I may ask them "What then am I doing that you are not doing?"
For I also find reasons to understand a gap of unspecified time interval from OTHER portions of the Bible.

But my objection is that Adam can simply be a guard against an unknown enemy.

Yes. Unknown until such an enemy made himself known.
As soon as the serpent spoke questioning God's motive, God's heart, and God's word, he exposed himself as the enemy of God.

In just the same way that angels were created as guards to begin with, as they are called cherubim. The first reference to the "cherubim" is in Gen. 3:24. Satan was once a cherub (see Ezek. 28:14-16).

He certainly is exposed in Ezekial 28?
And in Isaiah 14 he is also exposed.

 

[didactics]

Yes. Unknown until such an enemy made himself known.
As soon as the serpent spoke questioning God's motive, God's heart, and God's word, he exposed himself as the enemy of God.

He certainly is exposed in Ezekial 28?
And in Isaiah 14 he is also exposed.

Maybe I have not made my point clear enough. My point is that you don't need some long previous past of Satan's career as a rebellion previous to the creation of Adam.

I think the Bible reveals a pre-Adamic world. And though this is not spoken about much, it is important.
It makes naked the enemy of God, Satan, as to his career, past, and the reason for Satan's insane jealousy and hatred of man.

The most important thing about this earth age matter is the previous origin and career of our enemy.
How long ago that pre-Adamic kingdom was is not important to me.
But that he rose and fell before man is created should not be obscured.
Placing this creature simultaneously in Eden with Adam confuses and obscures Satan's origin.

As you have said here earlier, you point to a pre-Adamic kingdom. The Gap Theory or the ruin and reconstruction theory usually has a judgment, also known as the Luciferic flood named after the angel who became the devil-- a flood because of the statement of Genesis 1:2 - the earth was covered by water. But I think it is reasonable to assume enough time for an angelic rebellion without such a pre-Adamic world-- a rebellion to take place after day six of creation. Angels are highly intelligent, don't need to sleep and can oversee things without being in a physical body, enough time for jealousy to take root for Satan's origin.

 

[Jamdoc]

Why is the age of the earth an important matter to you (if it is)?

What is the most important thing that knowing the age of the earth will tell you?

because it's foundation.
without the foundation that God is creator of everything then why does God get to determine what actions and thoughts are sin? Why does He get to judge people and condemn them? If there is no God and thus no judgement and condemnation, then what does Jesus save you from?

So now you get into the weeds. If Genesis 1 is telling you 6 days of creation and really tells you the world is 6000 years old, but there is evidence everywhere that the Earth is older, then it makes it seem like the bible is lying. If the foundation of the Gospel (God is creator and thus has the authority to deem thoughts and actions as sin and judge them and condemn them) is considered a lie, then the gospel has nowhere to take root.

People who take literal 6 day 6000 year old creationism will then flip around and say that God put all this evidence that the Earth is older, but really it's 6000 years old. To which I say .. why? Why would God put ample evidence on Earth to attempt to disprove His own word's literal interpretation and thus "trick" people into being Atheists? It doesn't sit right with the nature of God that God does not lie, and creation itself is to bear witness to Him being the creator.

It's something I struggle with myself. Why does Earth seem so old if it's so young?

My fallback has been Proverbs 25:2. God does not disclose everything. So He told Moses the creation story in order to suit His purpose to an uneducated people, not scientists. It was sufficient to establish why He should be worshiped by Moses but does not disclose the full history of the world, it's a cliff notes for dummies version basically.

Possibilities I've considered: This isn't the first time that God has created and destroyed Earth. There is evidence of multiple mass extinction events in Earth's history. God plans to destroy the world and remake it again too.

There's also the day/age theory and the gap theory.
I'm content to say there are possibilities and I don't know which. If God has concealed that knowledge then He has reason to.
But what I don't accept is that God would put fake evidence everywhere to mislead people. The natural world is supposed to be the general revelation that convicts everyone of sin so that nobody is undeservedly sent to hell.

 

[oikonomia]

Maybe I have not made my point clear enough. My point is that you don't need some long previous past of Satan's career as a rebellion previous to the creation of Adam.

As of yet, I rarely see those who rather scoff at a pre-adamic career of this being, to understand spiritual warfare.
But I am welcomed for you, if you object to a pre-adamic rebellion, to show me differently.

It could happen.

As you have said here earlier, you point to a pre-Adamic kingdom. The Gap Theory or the ruin and reconstruction theory usually has a judgment, also known as the Luciferic flood named after the angel who became the devil

Yes, destruction of that former dominion, rendering the earth without form and void, is what I would teach.

-- a flood because of the statement of Genesis 1:2 - the earth was covered by water.

Yes, the sea is an indication of a holding place for the demonic spirits.

When the unclean spirit goes out from the man, it roams through waterless places, seeking rest, and does not find it. (Matt. 12:43)
The "waterless places" is anywhere on land away from the designated confining prison to which the demons were assigned.
I believe that is the sea.

When Jesus expelled the demons into the swine, they drove the swine in frantic escape down into the sea where they drowned.
My opinion is that the demons, in frantic hurryto get away from the Son of God, sought to take with them their new possessed bodies of the pigs back down with them to the sea. Land animals not being able to live in the sea, of course they died. And the demons returened to the place of water, the sea, where they are suppose to stay.

And behold, they cried out, saying, What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have You come here before the time to torment us?
Now there was, a good way off from them, a herd of many hogs feeding.
And the demons entreated Him, saying, If You cast us out, send us into the herd of hogs.
And He said to them, Go! And they came out and went into the hogs. And behold, the whole herd rushed down the steep slope into the sea, and they died in the waters. (Matt. 8:28-32)

There is a kind of hierarchy of preferences I detect in demon behavior. The demons are not fallen angels.
They are pre-adamic beings who lost their bodies and were ordained by God to be confined to the sea or the abyss.
However -

1.) The demons would prefer that they were never deprived of their own bodies (which they lost in pre-adamic judgment).
2.) If they cannot have THOSE original bodies they seek human bodies.
3.) If they cannot have human bodies they will settle for pigs bodies. Or animal bodies of some type.
3.) If they can have pig's bodies back in the sea they prefer that.
4.) Above all they wish to avoid being tormented by God's final judgment at the end of the age.

And the fact that there is no more sea in the new heaven and new earth indicate no remaining remnant of that rebellion or of death.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more. (Rev. 21:1)

But I think it is reasonable to assume enough time for an angelic rebellion without such a pre-Adamic world

Well, you would have to imagine such a cataclymic contaversy hatched in a few days.
I think for a being to actually seek to challenge God took a longer time to be revealed.
I consider Paul's warning about evil men in the church. Eventually evil intentions cannot be hidden but are exposed with the passage of time.

The sins of some men are openly manifest, going before to judgment; and for others, they also follow after.
Likewise also the good works are openly manifest, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden. (2 Tim. 5:24,25)

That is concerning much weaker, much less intelligent human beings.
But what about a powerful being like the Daystar who came out of the shoot "full of wisdom?"

. . . O you who sealed up perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty, (Ezek. 28:12)

You were the anointed cherub who covered the Ark; indeed I set you, so that you were upon the holy mountain of God; you walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. (vs. 14,15)

Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness. (v.17a)

My opinion is that it probably took epoch for this mammoth contraversy to be conceived, ferment, and be exposed.
My feeling is that less that a few solar days within the six days say the unfolding of this conflict - a great being with his hosts of deceived hordes to actually challenge God.

You submit -
-- a rebellion to take place after day six of creation. Angels are highly intelligent, don't need to sleep and can oversee things without being in a physical body, enough time for jealousy to take root for Satan's origin.

But the rebellion had to have taken place for the serpent to LIE and slander God.

And there is STILL the problem of TWO deputy authorites created by God in the Eden of Genesis.
Absolutely NOTHING is said about this glorious beautiful, wise, kingly like priest being, anointed Cherub being somewhere in the garden of Eden in Genesis.

You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, diamond, chrysolite, onyx, jasper, sapphire, carbuncle, and emerald, with gold. The workmanship of your tambourines and your pipes was prepared with you on the day that you were created. (Ezek. 28:13)

This must be a previous Eden, the garden of God.
I do not believe God created man in His image and likeness invested with reigning authority ALONG WITH another authoritative creature in the same Eden. It makes more sense biblically that these two economies were not concurrent. One arrangement that rotted in failure was followed by another. Satan rebelled and God created man afterwards to cooperate with His eternal purpose.

Response?

 

[oikonomia]

This plays on a category error, pitting science against the Bible.

I mean when Science is assumed the only way man can know truth, then the contrast is necessary.
You know some say only through Science can truth be known.

The former is human interpretation, the latter is divine revelation—two categorically different things. The proper contrast would be either science and theology (both human interpretations), or nature and scripture (both divine revelations). Consider the following quote from Robert C. Newman (emphasis mine):

​

As far as my view of the integration of science and theology is concerned, I have a few comments to make. Initially, I like the phrase "science and theology." It is common in these discussions to talk instead of "science and the Bible," and while our concern in this book is that our theology be truly biblical, the terms "science" and "Bible" are not parallel.​

But when people like Richard Dawkins try to force them as necessrily polar opposites, the contrast should be highlighted.

Science can be understood as a method, an institution, or a body of knowledge. In this it is parallel to "theology" rather than to "Bible."​

I agree. Again, some atheists will not permit this parallel. Then Christians should confess their attitude.
One is from man's methods and the other from God's speaking. We do not believe He lies or is fallible.

An argument from authority is not necessarily a wrong argument. It is just not a rigorous argument academically.

Science is a method or institution that investigates nature, and it is also the body of knowledge that results from this study. Theology (at least biblical or exegetical theology) is a method or institution that investigates the Bible and also the resultant body of knowledge. Theology studies God's special revelation in Scripture, while science studies God's general revelation in nature. If biblical Christianity is true (as I believe), then the God who cannot lie has revealed himself both in nature and in Scripture. Thus, both science and theology should provide input to an accurate view of reality, and we may expect them to overlap in many areas.​

​

Robert C. Newman, "Progressive Creationism," in J. P. Moreland and John Mark Reynolds, eds., Three Views on Creation and Evolution (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1999), 117.

Thankyou. I have respect for J.P. Moreland as a Christian philosopher.

 

[didactics]

As of yet, I rarely see those who rather scoff at a pre-adamic career of this being, to understand spiritual warfare.
But I am welcomed for you, if you object to a pre-adamic rebellion, to show me differently.

It could happen.

Yes, destruction of that former dominion, rendering the earth without form and void, is what I would teach.

Yes, the sea is an indication of a holding place for the demonic spirits.

When the unclean spirit goes out from the man, it roams through waterless places, seeking rest, and does not find it. (Matt. 12:43)
The "waterless places" is anywhere on land away from the designated confining prison to which the demons were assigned.
I believe that is the sea.

When Jesus expelled the demons into the swine, they drove the swine in frantic escape down into the sea where they drowned.
My opinion is that the demons, in frantic hurryto get away from the Son of God, sought to take with them their new possessed bodies of the pigs back down with them to the sea. Land animals not being able to live in the sea, of course they died. And the demons returened to the place of water, the sea, where they are suppose to stay.

And behold, they cried out, saying, What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have You come here before the time to torment us?
Now there was, a good way off from them, a herd of many hogs feeding.
And the demons entreated Him, saying, If You cast us out, send us into the herd of hogs.
And He said to them, Go! And they came out and went into the hogs. And behold, the whole herd rushed down the steep slope into the sea, and they died in the waters. (Matt. 8:28-32)

There is a kind of hierarchy of preferences I detect in demon behavior. The demons are not fallen angels.
They are pre-adamic beings who lost their bodies and were ordained by God to be confined to the sea or the abyss.
However -

1.) The demons would prefer that they were never deprived of their own bodies (which they lost in pre-adamic judgment).
2.) If they cannot have THOSE original bodies they seek human bodies.
3.) If they cannot have human bodies they will settle for pigs bodies. Or animal bodies of some type.
3.) If they can have pig's bodies back in the sea they prefer that.
4.) Above all they wish to avoid being tormented by God's final judgment at the end of the age.

And the fact that there is no more sea in the new heaven and new earth indicate no remaining remnant of that rebellion or of death.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more. (Rev. 21:1)

Well, you would have to imagine such a cataclymic contaversy hatched in a few days.
I think for a being to actually seek to challenge God took a longer time to be revealed.
I consider Paul's warning about evil men in the church. Eventually evil intentions cannot be hidden but are exposed with the passage of time.

The sins of some men are openly manifest, going before to judgment; and for others, they also follow after.
Likewise also the good works are openly manifest, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden. (2 Tim. 5:24,25)

That is concerning much weaker, much less intelligent human beings.
But what about a powerful being like the Daystar who came out of the shoot "full of wisdom?"

. . . O you who sealed up perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty, (Ezek. 28:12)

You were the anointed cherub who covered the Ark; indeed I set you, so that you were upon the holy mountain of God; you walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. (vs. 14,15)

Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness. (v.17a)

My opinion is that it probably took epoch for this mammoth contraversy to be conceived, ferment, and be exposed.
My feeling is that less that a few solar days within the six days say the unfolding of this conflict - a great being with his hosts of deceived hordes to actually challenge God.

You submit -
-- a rebellion to take place after day six of creation. Angels are highly intelligent, don't need to sleep and can oversee things without being in a physical body, enough time for jealousy to take root for Satan's origin.

But the rebellion had to have taken place for the serpent to LIE and slander God.

And there is STILL the problem of TWO deputy authorites created by God in the Eden of Genesis.
Absolutely NOTHING is said about this glorious beautiful, wise, kingly like priest being, anointed Cherub being somewhere in the garden of Eden in Genesis.

You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, diamond, chrysolite, onyx, jasper, sapphire, carbuncle, and emerald, with gold. The workmanship of your tambourines and your pipes was prepared with you on the day that you were created. (Ezek. 28:13)

This must be a previous Eden, the garden of God.
I do not believe God created man in His image and likeness invested with reigning authority ALONG WITH another authoritative creature in the same Eden. It makes more sense biblically that these two economies were not concurrent. One arrangement that rotted in failure was followed by another. Satan rebelled and God created man afterwards to cooperate with His eternal purpose.

Response?

Well, let me put it this way. There was time for the angelic rebellion to take place after day six of creation AND before the Fall of humanity in Genesis three. And right, Ezekiel 28 seems to be talking about a heavenly place, not an earthly garden that he was cast out of. Or wait... you are saying the garden of God is a previous earthly garden; then we do not agree on that. I just think this garden of God Ezekiel is speaking of is poetic talk for heaven, not a physical garden because angels don't inhabit bodies in their original state but are spiritual beings.


What is interesting though, is what you say here,

"The demons are not fallen angels.
They are pre-adamic beings who lost their bodies and were ordained by God to be confined to the sea or the abyss."

There are examples in Scripture of angels manifesting a body for a purpose, and depending on one's interpretation of Gen. 6:2 some would argue this was a manifestation of demonic beings. I think it is a plausible explanation, but it is reasoned on the idea that demons are fallen angels. I never heard anyone suppose demons are not fallen angels before. That sounds quite confusing honestly. Are you supposing angels were created later? I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I don't see why there should be a problem in taking the 6 day creation literally. Since God is omnipotent he could have created the universe in 6 seconds. Also God would have created a fully developed earth. In other words the earth would have had billions of years of development take place instantaneously. An omnipotent God would work completely outside of our finite concept of time.

 

[oikonomia]

Well, let me put it this way. There was time for the angelic rebellion to take place after day six of creation AND before the Fall of humanity in Genesis three.

So you also see an unspecifiedly length of time interval.

I see it inbetween Genesis 1:1 and verse 2.
You see it inbetween Day#6 and the time Eve's conversation with the serpent.

And right, Ezekiel 28 seems to be talking about a heavenly place, not an earthly garden that he was cast out of.

Now I did not specifically say a heavenly place though.
I think being cast from the mountain of God may refer being cast from the government of God.

I think his jurisdiction extended to below heaven.

Or wait... you are saying the garden of God is a previous earthly garden; then we do not agree on that. I just think this garden of God Ezekiel is speaking of is poetic talk for heaven, not a physical garden because angels don't inhabit bodies in their original state but are spiritual beings.

Some of this is beyond my ability to interpret what little we are told.
I cannot insist I know the nature of the Cherub's body.

The stones of fire upon which the Anointed Cherub walked could be the glorious paved work of saphire Moses saw beneath the feet of God in Exodus

And they saw the God of Israel, and under His feet there was something like a paved work of sapphire, even like heaven itself for clearness. (Exo. 24:10)
comp.
you walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. (Ezek. 28:14b)

He was extremely CLOSE to God Almighty. What a position of high honor.

What is interesting though, is what you say here,

"The demons are not fallen angels.
They are pre-adamic beings who lost their bodies and were ordained by God to be confined to the sea or the abyss."

There are examples in Scripture of angels manifesting a body for a purpose, and depending on one's interpretation of Gen. 6:2 some would argue this was a manifestation of demonic beings. I think it is a plausible explanation, but it is reasoned on the idea that demons are fallen angels. I never heard anyone suppose demons are not fallen angels before. That sounds quite confusing honestly. Are you supposing angels were created later? I'm not sure what you mean.

These angelic "sons of God" who horrendously violated their assigned nature were ESPECIALLY dangerous and CONFINED to the top security part of the abyss. They are the spirits in prison that Jesus in Hades announced His victory over in 1 Peter 3.18-20.

[Christ] . . . being put to death in the flesh, but on the other, made alive in the Spirit;
In which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
Who had formerly disobeyed when the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared; entering into which, a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through by water. (1 Pet. 3:18b-20)

Particularly heineous was their crime for which they have been especially confined in Tartarus, the deepest regions of the abyss.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned but delivered them to gloomy pits, having cast them down to Tartarus, they being kept for judgment; (2 Pet. 2:4)
comp.
And angels who did not keep their own principality but abandoned their own dwelling place, He has kept in eternal bonds under gloom for the judgment of the great day; (Jude 6)

Angels in Noah's day did something particularly offensive to the Creator.
These angels who took form as men to impregnate women to derange the creation of God are set apart from others who still roam the heavenlies.

Now we must discuss the 24 elders of CREATION in Revelation.
This class of very ancient and most elderly of created beings is probably the CLASS from which the Anointed Cherub came.

In Revelation the 24 elders are not the elders of Israel. Nor are they the elders of the church. John who is one of the original twelve disciples SEES them. John is not AMONG them. And surely John is elder among the Christians. So as consistent with the theme of Revelation 4 these elders must be the elders of God's creation. These are the oldest beings God created vested with authority, hence the thrones and crowns.

And around the throne there were twenty-four thrones, and upon the thrones twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and upon their heads golden crowns. (Rev. 4:4)

The twenty-four elders will fall before Him who sits upon the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever; and they will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created. (Rev. 4:10,11)

From this class of the most ancient created beings, before God created man, Satan arose.
This is how I would teach, not that Satan was necessarily one of these 24 elders.
But in principle, Satan came from the class of the eldest of created beings who were vested by the Creator with authority.

 

[oikonomia]

I don't see why there should be a problem in taking the 6 day creation literally. Since God is omnipotent he could have created the universe in 6 seconds. Also God would have created a fully developed earth. In other words the earth would have had billions of years of development take place instantaneously. An omnipotent God would work completely outside of our finite concept of time.

I agree. His power is infinite.

I use to wonder how long it would take at the last judgment to judge all the dead if they be such a great multitude.
Then someone pointed out that God could judge everyone in one instant simultaneously. He is that powerful.

Revelation 20:11,12 -
And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose face earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works.