Why do "Progressives" have the most taboos?

Marcel_Prix

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Hey guys,
This is something I've realized Liberals start from the "Sex,Alcohol, Rock and Rolls." Attitude, however, they soon devolved into dislike anyone who questions, "Intersectionality." A lot of this Clowns think they are "edgy" by being blasphemous about Religion and Religious people. Since they believe religious people have a lot of "taboos."

However, the opposite is the case. "Progressives" since to have the most taboos. They make fun of Religions and think doing so is edgy. However, they have tons of taboos from being unable to joke around about minorities even more extreme to being unable of talking about overweight people or disabled people.
 

lismore

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Hey guys,
However, they have tons of taboos from being unable to joke around about minorities even more extreme to being unable of talking about overweight people or disabled people.

I wouldn't recommend any Christian to joke about minorities, overweight or disabled people either. God Bless :)
 
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FireDragon76

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You're confusing "1960's counter culture" with "liberal". They aren't the same thing.

"Talking about overweight or disabled people"? You mean ridiculing people? Since when is that a Christian value?
 
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Marcel_Prix

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You're confusing "1960's counter culture" with "liberal". They aren't the same thing.

"Talking about overweight or disabled people"? You mean ridiculing people? Since when is that a Christian value?

Could you expand more on the first point? Don't you think there's a difference between Liberal and Progressive? But if you further want to distinguish then there could be Countercultural, Liberal and Progressive.

On the second point, what I mean is that based on my observations it seems that around the world people used to joke about these topics and take it in a light hearted way be them secular or religious. And Some overweight and disable people did not care too much about that. And themselves would joke about it.

Its when a society starts introducing "taboos" that it makes things very different. Slavoj Zizek has a long discussion on this topic on one of his conferences. This approach to Conversation is neither religious nor secular instead is "Anti-Puritan," "Anti-Purist."
 
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Tskjesusfreak

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Counterculturalism is just being what ever the opposite of the mainstream culture is. There is cultural right wing is the new Counterculture movement.

Right now, Counterculture consists of:
Trump supporters
Conservatives
Theological Conservative* Protestants
Roman Catholicism (pre 2010)
Anti SJW Athiesm (Carl Benjamin / Sargon of Akkad)
Anyone that slightly disagrees with progressives**

*in a religious sense not a political sense.
**I'm talking about cultural progressives not political progressive because one can be culturally extremely conservative but hold to most progressive politics.
 
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FireDragon76

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Could you expand more on the first point? Don't you think there's a difference between Liberal and Progressive? But if you further want to distinguish then there could be Countercultural, Liberal and Progressive.

In the American context, liberal and progressive are often used interchangeably.

On the second point, what I mean is that based on my observations it seems that around the world people used to joke about these topics and take it in a light hearted way be them secular or religious. And Some overweight and disable people did not care too much about that. And themselves would joke about it.

I'm disabled myself. I don't crack jokes about it, neither do most disabled people I know. Our lives aren't punchlines.

People used to do alot of horrible things. Slavery, bear bating, midget tossing, etc. Now those are generally considered morally depraved. Standards change as people learn new things about the world and other people.

Its when a society starts introducing "taboos" that it makes things very different. Slavoj Zizek has a long discussion on this topic on one of his conferences. This approach to Conversation is neither religious nor secular instead is "Anti-Puritan," "Anti-Purist."

Zizek is also careful to not personally attack anymore. What he talks about are generally abstractions, not concrete details of peoples lives.
 
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gaara4158

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Hey guys,
This is something I've realized Liberals start from the "Sex,Alcohol, Rock and Rolls." Attitude, however, they soon devolved into dislike anyone who questions, "Intersectionality." A lot of this Clowns think they are "edgy" by being blasphemous about Religion and Religious people. Since they believe religious people have a lot of "taboos."

However, the opposite is the case. "Progressives" since to have the most taboos. They make fun of Religions and think doing so is edgy. However, they have tons of taboos from being unable to joke around about minorities even more extreme to being unable of talking about overweight people or disabled people.
If your humor which leans heavily on ridiculing people whose lives are markedly more difficult than your own isn’t being well-received these days, that’s your own problem, not that of “progressives.”

Further, to engage the general spirit of your question, it has never been a claim of modern progressives that they don’t have taboos. Rather, the principles that determine what is taboo and what is normal under progressive political groups are guided by more of a secular humanist ideology than a fundamentalist Christian ideology. It’s not that there are fewer taboos in either camp, it’s that the taboos are different.
 
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stevil

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Hey guys,
This is something I've realized Liberals start from the "Sex,Alcohol, Rock and Rolls." Attitude,
What??????
however, they soon devolved into dislike anyone who questions, "Intersectionality."
Huh????

A lot of this Clowns think they are "edgy" by being blasphemous about Religion and Religious people.
What has this got to do with Liberals?

Since they believe religious people have a lot of "taboos."
Religious people do have a lot of taboos

However, the opposite is the case. "Progressives" since to have the most taboos. They make fun of Religions and think doing so is edgy.
Quite the generalisation there.
However, they have tons of taboos from being unable to joke around about minorities, even more extreme to being unable of talking about overweight people or disabled people.
Typically liberals respect others, so they wouldn't typically lean towards discrimination or put downs of minorities. And yeah that respect goes towards people of various races, BMI or disabilities. How dare they?! What horrible people those liberals are.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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It's because they started doing the exact thing Obama warned about.


In another speech, he referred to what he saw bubbling up in his party as a "circular firing squad"

Where they seriously missed the mark is that in order for actual "progress" to take place, there needs to be the free exchange of ideas, no matter how controversial some individuals find them.

Somewhere along the way, it went from the attitude of "sunlight is the best disinfectant...let them expose their own views to the public, and we'll slam dunk on them" to "we find that so offensive, that you shouldn't be able to even say that in front of other people"

We went from progressive colleges in the 60's hosting debates between George Lincoln Rockwell (former leader of the American Nazi Party) and a member of the Nation of Islam, to the point where Jerry Seinfeld said he won't do college campuses anymore, and someone as tame as Ben Shapiro needs 3 dozen police officers to protect him from rioters after a college speech.

There are a couple of explanations for this
A) Some of the things far-left progressives are pushing for aren't all that sound, so they know they can't win a debate in the marketplace of ideas, so they'd prefer if the other side wasn't even allowed to participate at all. If they had a solid position and wanted to own the other side, they should be chomping at the bit to debate the opposing side in a very public way. For instance, do you think any astrophysicists are afraid to debate a flat earther? Can you ever imagine a nobel prize winner in physics called for flat-earthers to be censored and silenced? Not likely, they'd love to get on a debate stage with them.

B) Some people really have become so over-sensitive that they can't even handle being exposed to an idea they don't like... I've heard a few people refer to them as "emotional hemophiliacs", where merely hearing an idea that offends them they somehow equate with "violence"


Or maybe it's a little combination of both...


The attitude shifted from "progress via changing hearts and minds" to "progress using force" (which is actually a hollow form of progress, because the people who weren't on-board haven't actually changed their mind on anything, they've just been forced to shut up and become bitter, which actually creates more disenfranchised extremists)
 
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gaara4158

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It's because they started doing the exact thing Obama warned about.


In another speech, he referred to what he saw bubbling up in his party as a "circular firing squad"

Where they seriously missed the mark is that in order for actual "progress" to take place, there needs to be the free exchange of ideas, no matter how controversial some individuals find them.

Somewhere along the way, it went from the attitude of "sunlight is the best disinfectant...let them expose their own views to the public, and we'll slam dunk on them" to "we find that so offensive, that you shouldn't be able to even say that in front of other people"

We went from progressive colleges in the 60's hosting debates between George Lincoln Rockwell (former leader of the American Nazi Party) and a member of the Nation of Islam, to the point where Jerry Seinfeld said he won't do college campuses anymore, and someone as tame as Ben Shapiro needs 3 dozen police officers to protect him from rioters after a college speech.

There are a couple of explanations for this
A) Some of the things far-left progressives are pushing for aren't all that sound, so they know they can't win a debate in the marketplace of ideas, so they'd prefer if the other side wasn't even allowed to participate at all. If they had a solid position and wanted to own the other side, they should be chomping at the bit to debate the opposing side in a very public way. For instance, do you think any astrophysicists are afraid to debate a flat earther? Can you ever imagine a nobel prize winner in physics called for flat-earthers to be censored and silenced? Not likely, they'd love to get on a debate stage with them.

B) Some people really have become so over-sensitive that they can't even handle being exposed to an idea they don't like... I've heard a few people refer to them as "emotional hemophiliacs", where merely hearing an idea that offends them they somehow equate with "violence"


Or maybe it's a little combination of both...


The attitude shifted from "progress via changing hearts and minds" to "progress using force" (which is actually a hollow form of progress, because the people who weren't on-board haven't actually changed their mind on anything, they've just been forced to shut up and become bitter, which actually creates more disenfranchised extremists)
This just doesn’t ring true. There’s a thriving debate community amongst the left online, and they regularly engage full-on racists, sexists, nazis, fascists, and even conservatives. Left-leaning mainstream political pundits like Cenk Uygur, Kyle Kulinski, and Hasan Piker have repeatedly participated in public debates with right-wing media figures. If there is an element amongst the left that wishes to protest the presence of right-wing pundits at their schools, on their shows, or on social media, that’s not Big Censorship, that is the free marketplace of ideas rejecting these speakers. In fact, when Ben Shapiro needs a sizable police escort to a speaking engagement at a university, that’s him using the public resources to act against the free market. If he were so interested in letting bad ideas die he’d just leave.

But even without these telltale signs of the right’s failure to capture the public hearts and minds, the idea that the only means necessary to suppress bad ideas is to give them a platform seems incredibly naïve to me. Do we really want to claim that no bad idea has ever taken hold of a population and wrought havoc? That’s obviously not the case. It stands to reason, then, that tempering the kinds of ideas that are given the time of day on far-reaching media platforms is not just a good idea, but fundamental to a free society.

Admittedly, this is where we can go wrong. There is disagreement as to where the line between acceptable and unacceptable subject matter for debate lies. The meta-debate takes up probably too much bandwidth in lefty circles, and that’s where the circular firing squad comes in. Everyone’s purity testing everyone else and forming cliques and sub-communities that view other lefties as dangerous as the right.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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This just doesn’t ring true. There’s a thriving debate community amongst the left online, and they regularly engage full-on racists, sexists, nazis, fascists, and even conservatives. Left-leaning mainstream political pundits like Cenk Uygur, Kyle Kulinski, and Hasan Piker have repeatedly participated in public debates with right-wing media figures. If there is an element amongst the left that wishes to protest the presence of right-wing pundits at their schools, on their shows, or on social media, that’s not Big Censorship, that is the free marketplace of ideas rejecting these speakers. In fact, when Ben Shapiro needs a sizable police escort to a speaking engagement at a university, that’s him using the public resources to act against the free market. If he were so interested in letting bad ideas die he’d just leave.

The fact that you can find a few from TYT who are willing to debate (which is kind of their thing, they're like a left-leaning daily wire), doesn't negate the overarching idea. Cenk is one of the people who have publicly debated Shapiro on more than one occasion (and has also debated people like Tucker Carlson and Dinesh D'souza). He didn't try to start a petition to have them disinvited from PolitiCon, he said "their ideas are wrong, and I have a rebuttal to each of them".

The notion that so many on the left (especially in the realm of college campuses) will band together to shut down a speech shows that something has changed...they were the party of anti-censorship a few decades ago.

College-aged liberals should try to be more like Cenk, and less like their freshman year Philosophy professor.

I think it ties into what I said before, the ideas progressives used to argue for & against were positions that were a lot easier to defend in a spirited public debate, largely because they were grounded in static principles that could be easily defined and were consistent, as to where a lot of what's discussed these days is in the realm of abstracts and are talked about in conditional contexts where "it depends on who the group is being discussed and where they rank on the intersectional hierarchy"

A example of that would be Bill Maher being disinvited at Berkeley. Being able to criticize religious institutions if they're infringing on the secular human rights of citizens (even if it hurts someone's feelings) would've been a pre-2000 progressive principle. However, that shifted into "religion can be criticized as long as it's a religion that's made up of mostly non-marginalized people, if it's a religion made up of people who are in a protected class, then criticism equates to Islamaphobia".

An example of the "abstracts" I referred to would be debates on gender/pronouns. Some progressives on the farther left end of the spectrum seem to be very passionate about the subject, but don't seem to be able to define their position, or the position changes so much, so often, that it would be very tough to debate it from their perspective.

I know people have tried to draw some parallels between the fight for gay equality and this subject, but they're actually quite different in that the former could be (as I noted before) clearly defined and were rooted in some static principles, as to where the latter is rooted in conditional abstracts.

The defense for gay equality was a simple one to define
"A person being attracted to someone of the same sex shouldn't have any impact on employment, the ability to enter into a marriage contract, or adopt children" - then the other side can disagree, and they can hash it out

The modern-day debates on gender related topics are quite different
"Transgender women are women, and if this person makes up a new pronoun, you have to have to refer to them as that at their request, and if you fail to agree to either of those, you're a bigot" - yet, they refuse to define their terms in any meaningful way


Another way things have changed is that it changed from an emphasis on defending negative rights (that oblige inaction), to asserting positive rights (that require someone else to do something for you).
 
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gaara4158

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The fact that you can find a few from TYT who are willing to debate (which is kind of their thing, they're like a left-leaning daily wire), doesn't negate the overarching idea. Cenk is one of the people who have publicly debated Shapiro on more than one occasion (and has also debated people like Tucker Carlson and Dinesh D'souza). He didn't try to start a petition to have them disinvited from PolitiCon, he said "their ideas are wrong, and I have a rebuttal to each of them".

The notion that so many on the left (especially in the realm of college campuses) will band together to shut down a speech shows that something has changed...they were the party of anti-censorship a few decades ago.

College-aged liberals should try to be more like Cenk, and less like their freshman year Philosophy professor.

I think it ties into what I said before, the ideas progressives used to argue for & against were positions that were a lot easier to defend in a spirited public debate, largely because they were grounded in static principles that could be easily defined and were consistent, as to where a lot of what's discussed these days is in the realm of abstracts and are talked about in conditional contexts where "it depends on who the group is being discussed and where they rank on the intersectional hierarchy"

A example of that would be Bill Maher being disinvited at Berkeley. Being able to criticize religious institutions if they're infringing on the secular human rights of citizens (even if it hurts someone's feelings) would've been a pre-2000 progressive principle. However, that shifted into "religion can be criticized as long as it's a religion that's made up of mostly non-marginalized people, if it's a religion made up of people who are in a protected class, then criticism equates to Islamaphobia".

An example of the "abstracts" I referred to would be debates on gender/pronouns. Some progressives on the farther left end of the spectrum seem to be very passionate about the subject, but don't seem to be able to define their position, or the position changes so much, so often, that it would be very tough to debate it from their perspective.

I know people have tried to draw some parallels between the fight for gay equality and this subject, but they're actually quite different in that the former could be (as I noted before) clearly defined and were rooted in some static principles, as to where the latter is rooted in conditional abstracts.

The defense for gay equality was a simple one to define
"A person being attracted to someone of the same sex shouldn't have any impact on employment, the ability to enter into a marriage contract, or adopt children" - then the other side can disagree, and they can hash it out

The modern-day debates on gender related topics are quite different
"Transgender women are women, and if this person makes up a new pronoun, you have to have to refer to them as that at their request, and if you fail to agree to either of those, you're a bigot" - yet, they refuse to define their terms in any meaningful way


Another way things have changed is that it changed from an emphasis on defending negative rights (that oblige inaction), to asserting positive rights (that require someone else to do something for you).
I can appreciate the effort you put in to crafting such a long reply, but it’s a little disappointing that you spend most of it harping on a point I’ve already addressed - that the free marketplace of ideas has rejected right-wing speakers, as evidenced by would-be audiences protesting outside their events. It’s not censorship when no one wants to buy what you’re selling. It’s failure.

Further, it’s a little silly to complain that “no one wants to debate the debaters on the right - except the debaters on the left!” Like, yeah. Did you want the professional media-trained right -wing pundits to stick to debating laypeople? There’s a reason Ben Shapiro’s college debate format isn’t respected among actual academics.

I will give you one concession, though, and that’s the left’s tendency to get caught up in defense of rather nebulous and untested ideas such as neo-pronouns and xeno-genders. It’s an overcorrection aimed at avoiding repeating the undue attacks gender-nonconforming people have historically suffered, not unlike the modern patriotic reverence we in the US give to veterans in response to the neglect and disdain Vietnam veterans received. Just as we reflexively thank a veteran for his service even though he may not have contributed anything of value during his time in, we reflexively come to the defense of anyone expressing a different gender experience, even if the theory isn’t entirely fleshed out.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I can appreciate the effort you put in to crafting such a long reply, but it’s a little disappointing that you spend most of it harping on a point I’ve already addressed - that the free marketplace of ideas has rejected right-wing speakers, as evidenced by would-be audiences protesting outside their events. It’s not censorship when no one wants to buy what you’re selling. It’s failure.

Further, it’s a little silly to complain that “no one wants to debate the debaters on the right - except the debaters on the left!” Like, yeah. Did you want the professional media-trained right -wing pundits to stick to debating laypeople? There’s a reason Ben Shapiro’s college debate format isn’t respected among actual academics.

I will give you one concession, though, and that’s the left’s tendency to get caught up in defense of rather nebulous and untested ideas such as neo-pronouns and xeno-genders. It’s an overcorrection aimed at avoiding repeating the undue attacks gender-nonconforming people have historically suffered, not unlike the modern patriotic reverence we in the US give to veterans in response to the neglect and disdain Vietnam veterans received. Just as we reflexively thank a veteran for his service even though he may not have contributed anything of value during his time in, we reflexively come to the defense of anyone expressing a different gender experience, even if the theory isn’t entirely fleshed out.
...but if you're preemptively shutting down a person before they can even get on the stage, has it even reached the full "marketplace" yet?

It's sort of like a regional-majority group forbidding a person from buying/selling product XYZ, and then saying "see, nobody wants this, the market has spoken" before all consumers were even given the option. Maybe the maker of XYZ doesn't need the overwhelming majority to like/want their product, maybe their model relies on the idea that if 5% of the people in a region are on-board, that's good enough.

Now, sure, many of the kids at Berkeley were probably already familiar with a lot of Ben's positions enough to know that they personally don't like his ideas (or at least thought they were 100% familiar with him due to 3 minute youtube clips they've seen), but the notion of "I don't like it, so I'm going to prevent him from speaking to anyone else who may be curious or on the fence", would be, at the very least, censorship-adjacent.

There's a difference between "We don't like this, so we're not going to watch it" vs. "We don't like this, so we're going to make sure nobody else can see it either because we can't risk someone else joining the other side"
 
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RocksInMyHead

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The fact that you can find a few from TYT who are willing to debate (which is kind of their thing, they're like a left-leaning daily wire), doesn't negate the overarching idea. Cenk is one of the people who have publicly debated Shapiro on more than one occasion (and has also debated people like Tucker Carlson and Dinesh D'souza). He didn't try to start a petition to have them disinvited from PolitiCon, he said "their ideas are wrong, and I have a rebuttal to each of them".

The notion that so many on the left (especially in the realm of college campuses) will band together to shut down a speech shows that something has changed...they were the party of anti-censorship a few decades ago.

College-aged liberals should try to be more like Cenk, and less like their freshman year Philosophy professor.

I think it ties into what I said before, the ideas progressives used to argue for & against were positions that were a lot easier to defend in a spirited public debate, largely because they were grounded in static principles that could be easily defined and were consistent, as to where a lot of what's discussed these days is in the realm of abstracts and are talked about in conditional contexts where "it depends on who the group is being discussed and where they rank on the intersectional hierarchy"

A example of that would be Bill Maher being disinvited at Berkeley. Being able to criticize religious institutions if they're infringing on the secular human rights of citizens (even if it hurts someone's feelings) would've been a pre-2000 progressive principle. However, that shifted into "religion can be criticized as long as it's a religion that's made up of mostly non-marginalized people, if it's a religion made up of people who are in a protected class, then criticism equates to Islamaphobia".

An example of the "abstracts" I referred to would be debates on gender/pronouns. Some progressives on the farther left end of the spectrum seem to be very passionate about the subject, but don't seem to be able to define their position, or the position changes so much, so often, that it would be very tough to debate it from their perspective.

I know people have tried to draw some parallels between the fight for gay equality and this subject, but they're actually quite different in that the former could be (as I noted before) clearly defined and were rooted in some static principles, as to where the latter is rooted in conditional abstracts.

The defense for gay equality was a simple one to define
"A person being attracted to someone of the same sex shouldn't have any impact on employment, the ability to enter into a marriage contract, or adopt children" - then the other side can disagree, and they can hash it out

The modern-day debates on gender related topics are quite different
"Transgender women are women, and if this person makes up a new pronoun, you have to have to refer to them as that at their request, and if you fail to agree to either of those, you're a bigot" - yet, they refuse to define their terms in any meaningful way


Another way things have changed is that it changed from an emphasis on defending negative rights (that oblige inaction), to asserting positive rights (that require someone else to do something for you).
I tend to agree with your observations, but I'll try to offer some explanation and clarification as to why things are trending that way.

Lots of stuff is currently in flux - we have cultural battles ongoing over race, gender, sexuality, etc, and all of these intersect in various ways that aren't fully understood yet. They can also be incredibly complex. However, in online debates, people frequently have little patience for breaking down complex issues, and tend to generalize based on edge cases. This leads to overcorrection and/or an unintentional focus on those edge cases. Those edge cases are difficult to defend (and maybe shouldn't be defended in some cases), but because they are presented as the default position, people feel obligated to defend them.

A significant number of "arguments" these days are also based on completely false misinformation - which is difficult, if not impossible, to refute without a deep dive into the science or data. And even if you do go to the effort of doing that, people will continue to repeat that misinformation because they heard it from a trusted source and don't have the interest or ability to verify it. Therefore, the instinct is to suppress that misinformation, because debating it without extensive preparation is impossible.
 
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gaara4158

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...but if you're preemptively shutting down a person before they can even get on the stage, has it even reached the full "marketplace" yet?

It's sort of like a regional-majority group forbidding a person from buying/selling product XYZ, and then saying "see, nobody wants this, the market has spoken" before all consumers were even given the option. Maybe the maker of XYZ doesn't need the overwhelming majority to like/want their product, maybe their model relies on the idea that if 5% of the people in a region are on-board, that's good enough.

Now, sure, many of the kids at Berkeley were probably already familiar with a lot of Ben's positions enough to know that they personally don't like his ideas (or at least thought they were 100% familiar with him due to 3 minute youtube clips they've seen), but the notion of "I don't like it, so I'm going to prevent him from speaking to anyone else who may be curious or on the fence", would be, at the very least, censorship-adjacent.

There's a difference between "We don't like this, so we're not going to watch it" vs. "We don't like this, so we're going to make sure nobody else can see it either because we can't risk someone else joining the other side"
If the goal of protesting a Shapiro event is to forcibly shut it down - which I’m not convinced it is - then sure, we could consider that a mild (if ineffective) form of censorship. His ability to reach hundreds of millions of people through his media company is unaffected by these protests - he’s just being denied a very particular platform for one afternoon. Rather, I think the protesters want to send the opposite message that a sold-out concert hall would send: people don’t want him there, and they actively oppose the auditorium being used for his purposes that day. They’re not just uninterested, they’re upset. I, too, wish people with bad ideas wouldn’t share them in front of large crowds.

A significant number of "arguments" these days are also based on completely false misinformation - which is difficult, if not impossible, to refute without a deep dive into the science or data. And even if you do go to the effort of doing that, people will continue to repeat that misinformation because they heard it from a trusted source and don't have the interest or ability to verify it. Therefore, the instinct is to suppress that misinformation, because debating it without extensive preparation is impossible.
Exactly. This is called Brandolini’s law, referring to the amount of effort it takes to supply misinformation versus the effort it takes to disprove it. There comes a point where it is more efficacious to prevent them from spreading it in the first place rather than dealing with the fallout.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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A significant number of "arguments" these days are also based on completely false misinformation - which is difficult, if not impossible, to refute without a deep dive into the science or data. And even if you do go to the effort of doing that, people will continue to repeat that misinformation because they heard it from a trusted source and don't have the interest or ability to verify it. Therefore, the instinct is to suppress that misinformation, because debating it without extensive preparation is impossible.
That could be the case in a few select instances... but in some instances, taking the approach of suppression is what I would call intellectual laziness.

If the "deep dive into the data" required is really all that "deep", then that would be indicative of a concept that maybe isn't all that ridiculous on its surface and worth addressing, or at least worth debating.

IE: if it's something that takes the knowledge of a true subject matter expert in order to fully understand, then the appropriate course of action would be to get subject matter experts on the debate stage so people can see the exchange.

If it is something utterly ridiculous, then the ridiculous person shouldn't be shut out of public debate simply because other people find it too arduous to do a little research on the topic and formulate a coherent rebuttal.

It almost takes as much effort to form an argument in favor shutting down a silly idea (so nobody else can be exposed to it) as it would just to research what the proper rebuttal would be to their silly idea.

And I believe the latter is a more strongly convincing approach to get people on the right side.

If the people who spent countless hours trying to get Rogan de-platformed for having Robert Malone on would've spent the same amount of time looking at the data surrounding the topic, they would've been armed with the rebuttals to shoot down the incorrect information.

If the goal of protesting a Shapiro event is to forcibly shut it down - which I’m not convinced it is - then sure, we could consider that a mild (if ineffective) form of censorship. His ability to reach hundreds of millions of people through his media company is unaffected by these protests - he’s just being denied a very particular platform for one afternoon. Rather, I think the protesters want to send the opposite message that a sold-out concert hall would send: people don’t want him there, and they actively oppose the auditorium being used for his purposes that day. They’re not just uninterested, they’re upset. I, too, wish people with bad ideas wouldn’t share them in front of large crowds.
I'd rather have the ideas intermingled than have everyone going off into their own silos and never being exposed to anything "different".

I forget who said it, but I've heard more than a few people express the sentiments:
"You defeat bad speech with good speech"
and
"If you don't even show up to debate, then you've already lost in the eyes of a large segment of the public"

I agree with both of those sentiments.
 
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gaara4158

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I'd rather have the ideas intermingled than have everyone going off into their own silos and never being exposed to anything "different".

I forget who said it, but I've heard more than a few people express the sentiments:
"You defeat bad speech with good speech"
and
"If you don't even show up to debate, then you've already lost in the eyes of a large segment of the public"

I agree with both of those sentiments.
Joe Rogan likes to repeat the first one you quoted. But in my initial reply, I think I dispensed with this sort of naïve thinking. Historically, good speech alone has been inadequate to counteract the devastating effects of bad speech, especially when the path of least intellectual resistance is the one following all the misinformation.
 
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gaara4158

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That could be the case in a few select instances... but in some instances, taking the approach of suppression is what I would call intellectual laziness.

If the "deep dive into the data" required is really all that "deep", then that would be indicative of a concept that maybe isn't all that ridiculous on its surface and worth addressing, or at least worth debating.

IE: if it's something that takes the knowledge of a true subject matter expert in order to fully understand, then the appropriate course of action would be to get subject matter experts on the debate stage so people can see the exchange.
The problem with this is people aren’t going to pay attention for long enough to see the full rebuttal. As long as the misinformation is intuitive or self-serving enough, people are going to settle for it over the complex and nuanced rebuttal.
 
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I wouldn't recommend any Christian to joke about minorities, overweight or disabled people either. God Bless :)
I agree.

People tend to make fun of fat guys like me until they are looking for a good restaurant - then we're their best friend.
 
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