Why Charismatic groups keep failing.

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Hello JoabAnias,

The "emerging" church means different things to different people. I like to think of it as post-charismatic, or the third wave of the charismatic movement.

I also think of the "emerging" Catholic Charismatic movement as "Cathlimergent". In other words, an "emerging" church with an ecumenical meta-dialogue.

Are you with me up to this point? If you are, then you should start to see why so many Catholic Charismatic groups fail. They are not "Cathlimergent".


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winsome

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Hello JoabAnias,

The "emerging" church means different things to different people. I like to think of it as post-charismatic, or the third wave of the charismatic movement.

I also think of the "emerging" Catholic Charismatic movement as "Cathlimergent". In other words, an "emerging" church with an ecumenical meta-dialogue.

Are you with me up to this point? If you are, then you should start to see why so many Catholic Charismatic groups fail. They are not "Cathlimergent".


.

I don't know what JoabAnias will make of this, but you've lost me.:confused:
 
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JoabAnias

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Hello JoabAnias,

The "emerging" church means different things to different people. I like to think of it as post-charismatic, or the third wave of the charismatic movement.

I also think of the "emerging" Catholic Charismatic movement as "Cathlimergent". In other words, an "emerging" church with an ecumenical meta-dialogue.

Are you with me up to this point? If you are, then you should start to see why so many Catholic Charismatic groups fail. They are not "Cathlimergent".


.

Can you put this in Catholic terms?
 
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Shekinah Glory
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Can you put this in Catholic terms?

Hello guys,

I already did! Read message #34 again. I will ask it again; why don't Catholics stick with the Tridentine Latin Mass with its strict Rubrics if they think that they are not an "emerging" church?

It looks like the real reason why Catholic Charismatic groups fail is because of an identify crisis caused by a growing generative friendship with Protestant Charismatics?

That should be easy to understand.



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JoabAnias

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Hello guys,

I already did! Read message #34 again. I will ask it again; why don't Catholics stick with the Tridentine Latin Mass with its strict Rubrics if they think that they are not an "emerging" church?

Sorry, those aren't Catholic terms. They are protestant as you said.
It looks like the real reason why Catholic Charismatic groups fail is because of an identify crisis caused by a growing generative friendship with Protestant Charismatics?

That should be easy to understand.

I haven't seen that. I have seen protestants enter a Catholic Charismatic group and become fully Catholic and no longer identify with the protestant aspects any more though.

Thanks for making it simple for us. :p ^_^

Gotta run.
 
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Hi Joab,

The Emerging Church has no defined sacramental theology, plus Catholics believe that it is the Sacraments which are the means by which each person is united to Christ. That is why I keep asking why you guys don't stick with the Tridentine Latin Mass with its Rubrics and Sacraments.

Staying on topic, there is a danger psychologists call “a false sense of group” which comes about when you force it or try to “play community” when you are really not one. I have been at a few Catholic Charismatic Healing Mass', and that is the impression that get. The Catholic Charismatics are playing community when they really are not one. The Healing Service ends up with the Sacraments, so the Sacraments are central to the Catholic community. It's kind of like, you can't have it both ways at the same time. You can't emerge and have the Sacraments at the same time.

However, like I mentioned eariler, the "emerging" church attempts to get beyond the traditional debates and constraints of Christianity. I think we can agree that the Catholic Charismatics are attempting to do just that? Emerge beyond the traditional debates and constraints, so that they can emerge as Charismaics. But of course, many of the Charismatic groups fail while they attempt to emerge. That applies to both Catholic and Protestant groups.


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JoabAnias

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Hi Joab,

The Emerging Church has no defined sacramental theology, plus Catholics believe that it is the Sacraments which are the means by which each person is united to Christ. That is why I keep asking why you guys don't stick with the Tridentine Latin Mass with its Rubrics and Sacraments.

The sacraments are always the same. I think to grasp the answer to your question would require a study of the Popes. Particularly John XXIII and Paul IV.

Staying on topic, there is a danger psychologists call “a false sense of group” which comes about when you force it or try to “play community” when you are really not one. I have been at a few Catholic Charismatic Healing Mass', and that is the impression that get. The Catholic Charismatics are playing community when they really are not one. The Healing Service ends up with the Sacraments, so the Sacraments are central to the Catholic community. It's kind of like, you can't have it both ways at the same time. You can't emerge and have the Sacraments at the same time.

I would tend to agree thats what they are doing with those Masses. One cannot deny healing and the many thousands of ways the Holy Spirit comes to us and touches hearts just the same. The reason this is a false sense of community is the same insincere reason it is in Protestantism. The Sacraments however remain the source and summit of the faith.

However, like I mentioned earlier, the "emerging" church attempts to get beyond the traditional debates and constraints of Christianity. I think we can agree that the Catholic Charismatics are attempting to do just that? Emerge beyond the traditional debates and constraints, so that they can emerge as Charismaics. But of course, many of the Charismatic groups fail while they attempt to emerge. That applies to both Catholic and Protestant groups.

The Church emerged once and for all. There are no traditional constraints of Christianity. God is not a constraint, He is true freedom. Did you read the links I gave you earlier?
 
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Joab,

Like most other emerging church people I do not like to be “constrained” by doctrine. Such limitations seem to be a relic of the past Church and are not important. Your suggested reading has over 400 pages, so I will pass.

The reason I brought the "emerging" church into this Catholic Section is becasue, in my opinon, the "emerging" church is a redefinition of Protestantism. I believe that it's the prelude to an unconditionl surrender to Roman Catholicism. It's Catholic friendly, but I have never heard a layperson say kind words about the movement.

I think you would be suprised to see how many Roman Catholic elements are used in an "emergent" church. Some Protestants are praying rosaries, some churches have candles, and even some catholic mysticism in the "emergent" churches. The church that I attend has a little chapel off to one side with a crucifix up front and about 6 rows of pews. It's looks catholic.

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JoabAnias

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Joab,

Like most other emerging church people I do not like to be “constrained” by doctrine. Such limitations seem to be a relic of the past Church and are not important. Your suggested reading has over 400 pages, so I will pass.

The reason I brought the "emerging" church into this Catholic Section is becasue, in my opinon, the "emerging" church is a redefinition of Protestantism. I believe that it's the prelude to an unconditionl surrender to Roman Catholicism. It's Catholic friendly, but I have never heard a layperson say kind words about the movement.

I think you would be suprised to see how many Roman Catholic elements are used in an "emergent" church. Some Protestants are praying rosaries, some churches have candles, and even some catholic mysticism in the "emergent" churches. The church that I attend has a little chapel off to one side with a crucifix up front and about 6 rows of pews. It's looks catholic.

.

Why do you think I would be surprised?

Do you find God's commands and ordinances constraining?

Protestantism has been trying to re-invent the wheel since the Judaizers.

People find their way home all the time.

Will that ever happen en-mass? Sure it does.

I have thought it might as you say, after the EO, Anglican and Lutherans but really only God knows. This was years ago. Since then I have learned not to try to predict the future. I just try to trust God. ;)

The point of the reference from Cardinal Newman was the development of doctrine and the difference between doctrine and dogma to explain why things develop and why its a good thing for their to be various rites in the Church.

You may not be aware, but there are many more than the TLM and NO. All with valid sacraments. There are 23 distinct Apostolic Catholic Churches that share one or more of those many different rites. Only the Roman Catholic Church uses the Latin rite.

Perhaps these docs on ecumenism from the Church Magisterium would be an easier read for you:
Ecumenism today: the situation in the Catholic Church
Ut unum sint - Ioannes Paulus PP. II - Encyclical Letter (1995.05.25)
 
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I would tend to agree thats what they are doing with those Masses. One cannot deny healing and the many thousands of ways the Holy Spirit comes to us and touches hearts just the same. The reason this is a false sense of community is the same insincere reason it is in Protestantism. The Sacraments however remain the source and summit of the faith.

"Healing Masses" are not different in essence to any other Mass. In my experience in England they are a standard Mass with a healing service afterwards. About 10 years ago, in one I regularly attended, general prayers for healing were said after communion but then an instruction came from Rome that there were to be no such insertions in the Mass. It was immediately stopped and all general and individual prayers for healing were said after Mass concluded.
 
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winsome

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The reason I brought the "emerging" church into this Catholic Section is becasue, in my opinon, the "emerging" church is a redefinition of Protestantism. I believe that it's the prelude to an unconditionl surrender to Roman Catholicism. It's Catholic friendly, but I have never heard a layperson say kind words about the movement.

I think you would be suprised to see how many Roman Catholic elements are used in an "emergent" church. Some Protestants are praying rosaries, some churches have candles, and even some catholic mysticism in the "emergent" churches. The church that I attend has a little chapel off to one side with a crucifix up front and about 6 rows of pews. It's looks catholic.
.

In England the Anglican Church has a wide range of practices. "High" Anglicanism venerates Mary, says the rosary, baptises, confirms, has communion services etc. But this is nothing to do with "emerging churches". It's more an effect of the Oxford movement of the 19th Century of which Blessed John Henry Newman was a leading proponent before he converted to Catholicism.
 
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JoabAnias

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"Healing Masses" are not different in essence to any other Mass. In my experience in England they are a standard Mass with a healing service afterwards. About 10 years ago, in one I regularly attended, general prayers for healing were said after communion but then an instruction came from Rome that there were to be no such insertions in the Mass. It was immediately stopped and all general and individual prayers for healing were said after Mass concluded.

I haven't been to one in over 10 years. The last one I went to, I recall a bunch of folks pretending to lay down on the floor as some sort of gift from God. I don't buy it. Thats not to slight the "healing Mass" though. Just that emotional spiritism.

I don't know if there is some permission from a Bishop to do those Masses or not but I do know what the rubrics and canons say right now and unfortunately, no one owns the Mass so doesn't have the right to change it up at will without the guidance and consensus of the Magisterium. Somehow I doubt that is considered in many of these healing masses.

Have you ever heard of Fr.McDonogh? He died in Ma. a year or so ago. He used to have a healing Mass televised on Boston Catholic TV from which bona fide healings are claimed to have taken place. Another would be Sr. McKenna. I think the gift of healing is really rare, tongues and interpretation even more rare, and that there is no such thing as "utterances" as they come from within but that it is good and efficacious to be prayed over by anyone and or anointed by a deacon, priest or bishop.
 
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winsome

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I haven't been to one in over 10 years. The last one I went to, I recall a bunch of folks pretending to lay down on the floor as some sort of gift from God. I don't buy it. Thats not to slight the "healing Mass" though. Just that emotional spiritism.

I don't know if there is some permission from a Bishop to do those Masses or not but I do know what the rubrics and canons say right now and unfortunately, no one owns the Mass so doesn't have the right to change it up at will without the guidance and consensus of the Magisterium. Somehow I doubt that is considered in many of these healing masses.

Have you ever heard of Fr.McDonogh? He died in Ma. a year or so ago. He used to have a healing Mass televised on Boston Catholic TV from which bona fide healings are claimed to have taken place. Another would be Sr. McKenna. I think the gift of healing is really rare, tongues and interpretation even more rare, and that there is no such thing as "utterances" as they come from within but that it is good and efficacious to be prayed over by anyone and or anointed by a deacon, priest or bishop.

I haven't heard of Fr, McDonogh but I have heard of Sr. Briege McKenna.

The leader of the prayer meeting I used top go to had a gift of healing and I know of others. I know several significant healing have taken place.

The leadership and pastoring is so important and I think lack of either can cause groups either to fail or go off track.
 
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In England the Anglican Church has a wide range of practices. "High" Anglicanism venerates Mary, says the rosary, baptises, confirms, has communion services etc. But this is nothing to do with "emerging churches". It's more an effect of the Oxford movement of the 19th Century of which Blessed John Henry Newman was a leading proponent before he converted to Catholicism.

Hello winsome,

Yes, as "Joab" pointed out, the Emergent Church movement has been accused of marketing Catholicism. Also, at times Eastern mysticism has been mixed in with Catholic mysticism during Charismatic worship. That seems to be what happened during the Torono Blessing?bb

.
 
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JoabAnias

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I haven't heard of Fr, McDonogh but I have heard of Sr. Briege McKenna.

The leader of the prayer meeting I used top go to had a gift of healing and I know of others. I know several significant healing have taken place.

The leadership and pastoring is so important and I think lack of either can cause groups either to fail or go off track.

I have heard of others too like Lorraine Louvat who has an interesting story: Welcome to the LifeSong Healing Ministry

She is on an old farm in the woods that used to be in my great grandfathers side of the family.

I think your right on the money about following the Church. Though I have never seen a real healing, I don't doubt they occur. How could I? I find it interesting in what context they are claimed to sometimes take place. I am a firm believer that to much thinking can stop Gods grace and we need to reject all anxiety that takes attention away from Him so that we only hear his voice within our soul. God does not expect us to be prefect but He does expect us to do our best. Not everyone has read the rubrics and the canons or is a pastor of souls. ;)
 
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(1 John 2: 27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you; the anointing he gave teaches you everything: you are anointed with truth, not with a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”

The people on this part of the forum say they are spirit filled. Can any of you tell me how the Holy Spirit has personally taught you about God?
 
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Hello winsome,

Yes, as "Joab" pointed out, the Emergent Church movement has been accused of marketing Catholicism. Also, at times Eastern mysticism has been mixed in with Catholic mysticism during Charismatic worship. That seems to be what happened during the Torono Blessing?bb

.


I think that there are two things that you are seeing.

#1 - The Spirit is the same in every age and across all denominations etc. As a result those who try to follow the Spirit and try to emerse themselves in the Spirit, will always have some similarities.

This is why elements of the charismatic movement, even among hardcore protestants resemble the mysticism of both Catholic and Orthodox Churches at various points.

As it is said, there is nothing new under the sun. The Charismatic movement is simply a renewal of the same mysticism which has always been an essential part of the Church.

For many protestants, they are incapable (at least so far) of fully accepting Catholicism because of what they have been raised in and what they have been taught.
However, the Spirit leads them as they are able to accept and thus they accept things which are essentially 'Catholic' because they don't know they are Catholic.

One of the things which was an early influence in my own journey back to the traditional Church was a conversation I had online with an Eastern Orthodox person.
I had expected that I would have nothing in common with the Eastern Orthodox at all... yet when I dug into it, I found my theology in many ways was almost identical to his.
At that time I didn't see all the differences which still remained because my eyes weren't yet open to see and fully understand the true historic and catholic faith.
There were only a few things that I disagreed on, such as infant baptism etc.

However, bit by bit, as I have come to understand more and more, those things have fallen into place, and I've also begun to see more and more the vast amount of stuff I was completely unaware of because it simply didn't exist in my protestant worldview.

Anyway... my point is that the movement of the Spirit in the protestant community draws them closer to Catholicism without them realizing it. They don't realize it simply because they don't know the history and don't really know catholicism... or because they have an overt anti-catholic bias, and would not accept it if it came to them as "catholic".

I believe there is a definite movement back towards the traditional faith as a result of the Charismatic movement. I think a lot of charismatics in particular are getting to the point where they are feeling the limitations of protestant theology and practice and its leaving them feeling as though they are missing something. More and more, as a result are looking back to the traditional, historic faith.

#2 - is that with any genuine move of God, there is likely to be counterfiets of the devil. This has been abundantly evident in the charismatic movement which has spawned numerous false prophets, and errant teachings.

You find the same thing in the history of the Church, where mystic teachers frequently warn of the dangers that lead many would-be mystics off into error and deception.

I believe that this is also the case with the emergent church movement.

Many evangelical protestants, especially among the younger generations, are feeling a sense of emptiness, or something missing.. or general lack of fulfillment and disappointment with the evangelical protestant church. Evangelical faith promises personal relationship.. but in the end, they have found what it delivers to be short of the mark.

The result is, just as many have begun to turn back to the historic faith, so also many are turning to the emergent church.

The emergent church often does offer some of the trappings of the historic faith, and it is open to dialogue with Catholics and Orthodox etc. In fact there was even a theological movement somewhat associated with the emergent movement called neo-orthodoxy. However, in the end this whole movement is flawed because it is fundamentally based on bad philosophy. Specifically, it is post-modern at its core.

It offers some of the trappings of the traditional faith because it recognizes that they contain something that people are looking for. Yet its roots are poisoned by the core ideas and motivations upon which is it based.

It is very possible, perhaps even likely that the emergent church will be a way point, or a stop-over for some people on their way back to the historic faith.

Its openness to catholicism may be a good thing.. but really this is at least partly only because it is open to everything. The emergent church doesn't really recognize true authority whether it be bible or church. To the emergent church everything is just a conversation, and we discover meaning through the conversation.

This is based upon, or is an adaption of the post-modern idea that there is no objective, external meaning. There is no transcendant meaning. There is only meaning within each person.

I do believe that the emergent church is fundamentally a transitional movement. Just like moral relativism.. its not a self-sustaining idea. It is designed to destroy one morality, so that it may eventually be replaced with another.

You can see this in the world today. Moral relativism was the defining philosophy of the last generation. However, if you look at politics and the world now, we are being baraged by moral imperatives all the time. The same people who once said "who are you to tell me what is right or wrong!" now say "This is right and good and it must be followed!"

The only difference is instead of Judeo-Christian morality, they now push politically determined morality.

(for example, in the public sector it was once considered a sin to be homosexual. Then relativity said that no one was right or wrong. Now it is considered a sin to oppose homosexuality)

really, this is simply a matter of who has the upper hand in the public sector. No one was ever really a relativist. Relativism was just a weapon they used while they didn't have power.

The same will eventually happen with the emergent church. Its conversationally determined meaning and lack of authoritative doctrine will eventually be replaced with a meaning determined from the top and authoritarian doctrine.. it will just be different than what existed before.
 
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JoabAnias

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(1 John 2: 27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you; the anointing he gave teaches you everything: you are anointed with truth, not with a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”

The people on this part of the forum say they are spirit filled. Can any of you tell me how the Holy Spirit has personally taught you about God?

I can sum it up for me.

Unimaginable gifts such as;

Knowledge of history, self and the gifts and fruits of the Spirit and how God thinks by opening the understanding of the Word.

Virtues of Wisdom, Humility Prudence, Temperance, Discernment - of Spirits, etc etc.

And perhaps most importantly, praxis of prayer and the Sacraments given us by Jesus and detachment from worldly desires.

A will (which is a choice) to be united to Gods will is to desire to live Baptism of both water and the Spirit and true freedom and joy on Earth as much as is possible because being here is also a necessary trial.

With God's justification and cooperation with his free flowing grace, suffering those trials of sanctification have substantial meaning and the urning to be united with God in heaven outweighs all flesh.

Faith that leads to Hope that lead to Love.
 
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45 minutes of denominational service trumps....
1.5-2 hours of praise, worship, and the presence of God????

You have an "Opinion" of what is going on.....being on the outside, looking in....
not on the inside, being touched by the glory of God from without....

Jesus said our yardstick is the fruit....of their faith, correct?
Philippians 3.8 good-holy-lovel;-of good report-true....

When some one does an about face and lives right, God was in the building
 
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