Why are threads on Christian universalism so popular?

[Der Alte]

No. That's why if I really believed your exegesis was right I'd be an atheist. The exegetical argument matters for me. But if the question is why people are attracted to universalism it's because they consider Christianity with ECT self-contradictory, and they'd like for other reasons to believe that it's not.
Many people grew up believing in hell. We don't typically reconsider that kind of belief without some reason. I believe in most cases the reason is a moral concern, not stumbling on some better exegesis. Once you think there's a problem with ECT, it's then natural to ask: does this invalidate Christianity, or can one find some reasonable understanding of Christianity that doesn't include ECT? That's where the popularity of universalism came from, which was the question here.
There is a followon question of whether one can reasonably understand Christianity as not including ECT. That's what you keep talking about. But you're not addressing the question that was originally asked, about why people are interested in universalism. There have been plenty of threads in which you argued that ECT is inherent in Christianity. I don't agree with you, but that's not the question for this thread.

I do not use the term ECT it's not biblical. I first attended Sunday School when FDR was president. The only thing I remember was how good the red Koolaide tasted. I attended Sunday School sporadically through my childhood especially when near my paternal grandmother. I did not become a Christian until my mid 20s when LBJ was president. Unlike many others I did not have any denominational baggage to unload. I questioned everything from day one. I can understand the attraction UR has, people can live like the devil and believe they will still be saved. Unfortunately neither the Father nor Jesus ever say unequivocally that all mankind will be saved.

 

[hedrick]

I can understand the attraction UR has, people can live like the devil and believe they will still be saved. Unfortunately neither the Father nor Jesus ever say unequivocally that all mankind will be saved.

If you think that’s the attraction, you’ve badly misjudged your fellow Christians.

 

[Der Alte]

If you think that’s the attraction, you’ve badly misjudged your fellow Christians.

I doubt that you speak for all believers in UR. I'm still waiting for some scripture where the Father or Jesus, themselves, unequivocally state that all mankind will be saved.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I do not use the term ECT it's not biblical.

Sure it is. Luke 16:19-32 describes the conscious torment of the rich man being punished which he's fully conscious of. In Matthew 25:46 Jesus says eternal punishment. Which adds up to eternal conscious torment.

 

[Der Alte]

Sure it is. Luke 16:19-32 describes the conscious torment of the rich man being punished which he's fully conscious of. In Matthew 25:46 Jesus says eternal punishment. Which adds up to eternal conscious torment.

The phrase "eternal conscious torment" is NOT scriptural it does not occur anywhere in the entire Bible. In discussing scripture I prefer to use only words/terms which actually occur in scripture. "Punishment" is "the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense." "Torment" is "cause to experience severe mental or physical suffering."
When did Abraham say the torment of the rich man in Hades would end?

 

[misput]

Reconciliation reconciles.

Hay folks! this seems to be one of those things we are missing something on but have faith, God knows : )

 

[Ceallaigh]

The phrase "eternal conscious torment" is NOT scriptural it does not occur anywhere in the entire Bible. In discussing scripture I prefer to use only words/terms which actually occur in scripture. "Punishment" is "the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense." "Torment" is "cause to experience severe mental or physical suffering."
When did Abraham say the torment of the rich man in Hades would end?

The rich man will be in conscious torment in Hades until he's thrown into the Lake of Fire where he will be in fully conscious torment night and day forever and ever.

 

[Der Alte]

The rich man will be in conscious torment in Hades until he's thrown into the Lake of Fire where he will be in fully conscious torment night and day forever and ever.

The part I highlighted in red is not supported by scripture.

 

[Ceallaigh]

The part I highlighted in red is not supported by scripture.

"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15

 

[Der Alte]

"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15

Out-of-context.

Revelation 20:11-15
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

 

[misput]

U guys realize u have the scripture contradicting itself? Any solutions?

 

[Der Alte]

U guys realize u have the scripture contradicting itself? Any solutions?

Be more specific please?

 

[misput]

Be more specific please?

Just my observation. Sorry I can't be more specific without being dragged into your debate and I don't have the answer.

 

[Der Alte]

Just my observation. Sorry I can't be more specific without being dragged into your debate and I don't have the answer.

You say that I have scripture contradicting itself but you can't answer how?

 

[misput]

You say that I have scripture contradicting itself but you can't answer how?

Sorry, I have been unclear. What I am getting at is a very good case can be made for either side of this subject and I have yet to see anyone harmonize the scripture on it, including me.

 

[Der Alte]

Sorry, I have been unclear. What I am getting at is a very good case can be made for either side of this subject and I have yet to see anyone harmonize the scripture on it, including me.

I admit that many arguments have been made for both sides but NOT "very good" ones if one reads the scripture and puts aside any assumptions/presuppositions they may have. While the lake of fire [LOF] is called "the second death" twice Rev 20:14, Rev 21:8 Rev. never says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF, then they/it dies.

Revelation 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The "false prophet" was a person he, the devil and the beast are thrown into the LOF but they don't die, they are tormented day and night forever and ever.
Also in the last book, last chapter

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still....
Revelation 22:15
(15) For without [the new Jerusalem]are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. cf. Rev 21:8​

 

[Ceallaigh]

Out-of-context.

Revelation 20:11-15​

(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.​

(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.​

(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.​

(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

Are you saying the rich man in Luke 16:19-32 will not be among those who are judged and thrown into the lake of fire?

 

[misput]

I admit that many arguments have been made for both sides but NOT "very good" ones if one reads the scripture and puts aside any assumptions/presuppositions they may have. While the lake of fire [LOF] is called "the second death" twice Rev 20:14, Rev 21:8 Rev. never says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF, then they/it dies.

Revelation 20:10​

(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The "false prophet" was a person he, the devil and the beast are thrown into the LOF but they don't die, they are tormented day and night forever and ever.
Also in the last book, last chapter

Revelation 22:11​

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still....​

Revelation 22:15​

(15) For without [the new Jerusalem]are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. cf. Rev 21:8​

I suppose we define "very good" differently.

 

[Der Alte]

I suppose we define "very good" differently.

Not if one applies the vss. I posted in my post #476.

 

[misput]

Not if one applies the vss. I posted in my post #476.

If that satisfies your kneed to know, good for u. I just think we are missing something on this subject as well as several others. God has it all figured out, we don"t.