Why are threads on Christian universalism so popular?

[Aussie Pete]

Yes, He does. Good testimony.

I think that no "one size fits all" is so true. I've believed in Jesus since being a small child, but the need for salvation was new to me when I went to an evangelical crusade, as a 15-year old girl, in the sixties. The strong 'You're going to hell if you die tonight' message was terrifying but led to guilt about things which weren't sin. However a much kinder approach, when I was 20, led me to salvation. Your experience was obviously different so I guess the Lord uses whatever is needed with all of us.

I believe that the parable of the sower is applicable. I started work at 15. Some of the workers were Christian. I took God's name in vain a lot. One of the younger ones rebuked me. I was convicted. Another family invited me for dinner. Their son was off to youth group. I could not imagine why anyone would voluntarily go to a Christian meeting. I joined the Navy when I was just 16. To get off the base, I went to a Billy Graham crusade. I even "made a decision". It did not stick. I don't remember a word of the message. The word was sown, but my heart was not ready to receive. I was ready just before my 21st. This time, I did receive Christ, and I was transformed immediately. I don't know if I would have seen my 21st if not for Jesus.

 

[Hmm]

Well racism is always bad and people should be treated with love and respect. However Christians should not aim to be popular, but to expound Biblical truth. There is a gulf between society and Christianity. The Church should preach the Christian message, which involves repentance for sin and being born again into a relationship with God and growth in Biblical living.

Agreed.

is not hatred which causes Christians to warn about hell, but love.

Universalists too warn about hell, although they don't use the word because it is not a biblical word. They see it as a process of remedy or correction which could well be very painful and go on for a long time, an 'age', and so it's something best to be avoided if at all possible.

I may talk about the hope of Heaven, through salvation, and that the alternative will not be good, but I see concentrating on ECT as a last resort when all else has failed.

But you can't scare people into loving God so how is this ever a last resort?

 

[rebornfree]

Universalists too warn about hell, although they don't use the word because it is not a biblical word. They see it as a process of remedy or correction which could well be very painful and go on for a long time, an 'age', and so it's something best to be avoided if at all possible.

One thing I want to do this summer is study the Biblical words which we refer to as 'hell': Hades, Sheol, Gehenna etc. to see what they really mean. The process of correction you describe sounds like purgatory. Is it the same thing? Is it in the Bible?

But you can't scare people into loving God so how is this ever a last resort?

Well, I think some people would say that you can. If the threat of hell, alongside conviction of sin, is what is needed for them to repent then perhaps it is a justifiable method of evangelism. It's not one I like to use though as I was terrified when I first heard that people went to hell and it caused me to be scared of quite innocent things. I prefer friendship evangelism and things like the Alpha Course.

 

[Hmm]

The process of correction you describe sounds like purgatory. Is it the same thing? Is it in
the Bible?

As I understand it, the Catholic understanding of purgatory is that everyone in purgatory is heaven bound. This seems not dissimilar to the universalist belief that we will all eventually.br restored so that God will be "all in all".

But I don't see hell as a waiting room, if that suggestion's there in purgatory. I think of it more as what happens when somebody hits rock bottom in this life. It's a common enough story that someone's life just spirals more and more out of control. Sometimes they have a "gutter moment" and recognise this lack of control and how their own efforts to lift themselves up dont work. Then they see God and his love and care for them and their lives slowly begin to rebuild. They'll often say in retrospect.that hitting rock bottom was the best thing that happened to them because that's how they found their true lives. That's hell's purpose IMO.

Is it in the Bible?

I'd say it is and that the Bible describes "hell" as not eternal (aionios - lasting.fir an age/eon) and remedial (kolasis - not done for the sake of punishment but for corrective purposes

Evidence includes the continual use of punishment from God as remedial in the OT, the fact that Jesus says we will all be salted with fire and that the gates to Jerusalem will always remain open. Some verses:

“Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny” (Mt 5:26).
“if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Cor 3:12-15)

I prefer friendship evangelism and things like the Alpha Course

I see you're from England too. I've been on the Alpha Course too and think it's a good course if it's run non-directionally as it's designed to be (I lead a course once).

 

[BravoM]

It's easier to buy into the hippie nonsense, that God isn't that "mean", and the absurd idea that "everyone goes to Heaven. Eventually.".
Their refusal to change showing their preference and obsession with their sins and poor choices. They've made their own subjective, modern Jesus for so long they've brainwashed themselves.

 

[Der Alte]

The OP question is "Why are threads on Christian universalism so popular?"
IMHO Some people don't read the whole Bible they only read the handful of vss. which appear to support "Universalism" and which their "leaders/pastors/teachers/scholars," tell them to read. Let us take Matthew 25:46, for instance.

Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment[kolasis]: but the righteous into life eternal.​

The "Hell No!" crowd will argue that "aionios" translated "everlasting" does not mean "everlasting/eternal" it really means "age long" or some such.
That crowd also claims that ""kolasis" translated "punishment" only means "correction." That is a lexical fallacy. "Kolasis" is derived from a word that does mean correction but it is a lexical fallacy to insist that the derived word means exactly the same thing as the root word.
The word "kolasis" translated "punishment" occurs only twice in the NT.

1 John 4:18
(18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[kolasis] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

Note in this vs. the person who has "kolasis" is NOT corrected i.e. "is not made perfect."
Now about the meaning of "aionios"

John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionios] life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life.​

In these two vss. Jesus parallels "aionios" with "shall not perish," twice. If "aionios" does not inherently mean "eternal. everlasting, unending" etc. Jesus could not have used it in parallel to "shall not perish."
Full list of 10 vss. where Jesus defines/describes the word "aionios" as eternal/for ever.
Luke 1:33, John 6:58, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 6:27, John 8:51

 

[hedrick]

The OP question is "Why are threads on Christian universalism so popular?"
IMHO Some people don't read the whole Bible they only read the handful of vss. which appear to support "Universalism" and which their "leaders/pastors/teachers/scholars," tell them to read. Let us take Matthew 25:46, for instance.

Matthew 25:46​

(46) And these shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment[kolasis]: but the righteous into life eternal.​

The "Hell No!" crowd will argue that "aionios" translated "everlasting" does not mean "everlasting/eternal" it really means "age long" or some such.
That crowd also claims that ""kolasis" translated "punishment" only means "correction." That is a lexical fallacy. "Kolasis" is derived from a word that does mean correction but it is a lexical fallacy to insist that the derived word means exactly the same thing as the root word.
The word "kolasis" translated "punishment" occurs only twice in the NT.

1 John 4:18​

(18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[kolasis] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

Note in this vs. the person who has "kolasis" is NOT corrected i.e. "is not made perfect."
Now about the meaning of "aionios"

John 3:15-16​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionios] life.​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life.​

In these two vss. Jesus parallels "aionios" with "shall not perish," twice. If "aionios" does not inherently mean "eternal. everlasting, unending" etc. Jesus could not have used it in parallel to "shall not perish."
Full list of 10 vss. where Jesus defines/describes the word "aionios" as eternal/for ever.
Luke 1:33, John 6:58, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 6:27, John 8:51

Universalism is a common concern because eternal torment is immoral. It doesn’t start with exegesis, but with concerns about what Christianity says about God’s character.

 

[Ceallaigh]

There are lots of Christian unversalist who were non-universalists for a long time and had years extensive Bible study and even seminary under their belt. Some were even PhD theologians and scholars, before they started believing in Chrisatian universalism. And most are still Baptist or Lutheran or Catholic or Eastern Orthodox in every sense otherwise.

 

[Der Alte]

Universalism is a common concern because eternal torment is immoral. It doesn’t start with exegesis, but with concerns about what Christianity says about God’s character.

I prefer to discuss Biblical terms vice pejorative extra Biblical terms. In Matt 25:46 Jesus said "eternal punishment."

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, linked below, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.​

…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correct.”​

Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correct” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.​

Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”​

Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”​

The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T. 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.​

…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 yrs +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.​

John 3:15-16
Matthew 7:21-23
Matthew 25:46
Jeremiah 13:11-14
Romans 1:24
Romans 1:26
Romans 1:28

 

[Der Alte]

There are lots of Christian unversalist who were non-universalists for a long time and had years extensive Bible study and even seminary under their belt. Some were even PhD theologians and scholars, before they started believing in Chrisatian universalism. And most are still Baptist or Lutheran or Catholic or Eastern Orthodox in every sense otherwise.

Define "lots?" It is very easy to post claims but I would prefer to see credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence. Please see my post #449, immediately above re: "eternal punishment."

 

[Ceallaigh]

Define "lots?" It is very easy to post claims but I would prefer to see credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence.

Just my opinion based on all the universalists I've come across. It seems to me you're itching for a UR debate, but those days are over with. At least for the time being.

Please see my post #449, immediately above re: "eternal punishment."

I've already seen it numerous times.

 

[Der Alte]

Just my opinion based on all the universalists I've come across.
I've already seen it numerous times.

I'm still waiting for some kind of credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence for the claims which were made. Meanwhile I will rely on the words of Jesus. Jesus said "eternal punishment" I believe it, that settles it.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I'm still waiting for some kind of credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence for the claims which were made. Meanwhile I will rely on the words of Jesus. Jesus said "eternal punishment" I believe it, that settles it.

I already told you I'm not going to debate UR. Or any aspects thereof. The URites have been driven away. The well is dry. You won. It's over with.

 

[Der Alte]

I already told you I'm not going to debate UR. Or any aspects thereof. The URites have been driven away. The well is dry. You won. It's over with.

If that is true why your post #448 above supporting UR?

 

[Ceallaigh]

If that is true why your post #448 above supporting UR?

I just stated the types of people who are believers in UR from my perspective. I didn't say that makes them right.

 

[hedrick]

I prefer to discuss Biblical terms vice pejorative extra Biblical terms. In Matt 25:46 Jesus said "eternal punishment."

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB, p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, linked below, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..I doubt there is anyone better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB, p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.​

…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correct.”​

Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correct” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.​

Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”​

Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”​

The word “correction” occurs one time in the N.T. 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.​

…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 yrs +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are more than competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much as English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.​

John 3:15-16
Matthew 7:21-23
Matthew 25:46
Jeremiah 13:11-14
Romans 1:24
Romans 1:26
Romans 1:28

The question is why universalism is popular. You can give all the exegesis you like, and won’t address the question, because it’s not popular because people suddenly think a different exegesis is better. It’s popular because people think the traditional doctrine is immoral. You cant answer that with yet another argument about the meaning of aionios or Kolasa. You have to convince people that unending punishment is something God might actually do. Otherwise if you manage to convince people your exegesis is right you will turn them into atheists, because it will make Christianity incoherent for them.

 

[Der Alte]

The question is why universalism is popular. You can give all the exegesis you like, and won’t address the question, because it’s not popular because people suddenly think a different exegesis is better. It’s popular because people think the traditional doctrine is immoral. You cant answer that with yet another argument about the meaning of aionios or Kolasa. You have to convince people that unending punishment is something God might actually do. Otherwise it doesn’t matter what the NT authors think he would do, even if your exegesis is right. (Fortunately I don’t think it is, or I would be an atheist because it would make Christianity incoherent.)That involves changing peoples basic idea of God and Jesus. In many cases if you succeed you will them into atheists, not traditional Christians. Remember, the existences of evil and hell are the biggest apologetical problem today.

So folks should just ignore scripture and make up their own meaning for the parts they don't like?

 

[Leaf473]

So folks should just ignore scripture and make up their own meaning for the parts they don't like?

Please excuse my jumping in here.

I think UR is interesting because it helps to reconcile different things we know about the character of God in the scriptures.

 

[hedrick]

So folks should just ignore scripture and make up their own meaning for the parts they don't like?

No. That's why if I really believed your exegesis was right I'd be an atheist. The exegetical argument matters for me. But if the question is why people are attracted to universalism it's because they consider Christianity with ECT self-contradictory, and they'd like for other reasons to believe that it's not.

Many people grew up believing in hell. We don't typically reconsider that kind of belief without some reason. I believe in most cases the reason is a moral concern, not stumbling on some better exegesis. Once you think there's a problem with ECT, it's then natural to ask: does this invalidate Christianity, or can one find some reasonable understanding of Christianity that doesn't include ECT? That's where the popularity of universalism came from, which was the question here.

There is a followon question of whether one can reasonably understand Christianity as not including ECT. That's what you keep talking about. But you're not addressing the question that was originally asked, about why people are interested in universalism. There have been plenty of threads in which you argued that ECT is inherent in Christianity. I don't agree with you, but that's not the question for this thread.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Please excuse my jumping in here.

I think UR is interesting because it helps to reconcile different things we know about the character of God in the scriptures.

Reconciliation reconciles.