What the Charismatics have to deal with.

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We could go with what we see in the Bible. The sick healed, the captives set free, hearts turned to God, The Good News proclaimed, prophecy, people dedicating themselves to prayer and the word of God. I'm sure I'm missing a few things.

If there is regular evidence of the correct use of tongues, people being healed of serious medical conditions, demons cast out, and the good news being preached with the result of people turning to Christ, there one could say that the Holy Spirit is involved. I won't make any comments about handling snakes and ingesting poison because I simply don't know how those fit in.

The problem is that there is so much misuse of tongues that it is almost impossible to find a church that is using the gift correctly. Also, none of the prominent healing evangelists can provide evidence of people really being healed of heart failure, cancer, or any other serious illness. Sure there is plenty hoopla involving people being slain in the Spirit, but even though there seems to power to do that, there is not enough power to get the same person healed. There was a Kenneth Copeland video clip of a person being slain in the Spirit falling backwards in his wheelchair, but he still couldn't get out of the wheelchair and start walking. Also, there are people casting demons out where there are no actual demons at all. Just because someone's mother in law is accused of having a demon doesn't mean that she actually has one. Also, there are a lot of motivational speechmaking, but no increase in people turning to Christ.

Even in the School of Supernatural Ministry where healing is taught, you would think that the tutors and students would be able to practice what they teach, but no. They all got Covid and had to close the school down until everyone got well again. So the evidence is overwhelming to support that in most if not all cases, the true work of the Holy Spirit has not got beyond speechmaking about it, rather than the expected powerful outcome as a followup to the talk.

 

[mourningdove~]

There was a Kenneth Copeland video clip of a person being slain in the Spirit falling backwards in his wheelchair, but he still couldn't get out of the wheelchair and start walking.

( ... I know I shouldn't, but I couldn't help but laugh. Thanks for the chuckle!)

 

[ARBITER01]

The problem is that there is so much misuse of tongues that it is almost impossible to find a church that is using the gift correctly.

You've been hanging out in the catholic-lite churches for too long Oscarr.

We regularly have a tongues message with an interpretation following it most Sundays.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You've been hanging out in the catholic-lite churches for too long Oscarr.

We regularly have a tongues message with an interpretation following it most Sundays.

You're in one of those rare churches that is using the gift as Paul taught it.

 

[Pioneer3mm]

I was involved in Pentecostal & Charismatic movement (churches & ministries)..
- many years.
---
I remember..the meeting at the Vineyard church.
- Someone (guest speaker) spoke in tongues.
- I did the interpretation of tongues.
---
After the meeting/service..one fellow was a bit surprised & told me,
- It is unusual/rare..someone speaking in tongues & interpretation..at the meetings.
- Even though..other spiritual gifts were manifested/allowed.

 

[ARBITER01]

I was involved in Pentecostal & Charismatic movement (churches & ministries)..
- many years.
---
I remember..the meeting at the Vineyard church.
- Someone (guest speaker) spoke in tongues.
- I did the interpretation of tongues.
---
After the meeting/service..one fellow was a bit surprised & told me,
- It is unusual/rare..someone speaking in tongues & interpretation..at the meetings.
- Even though..other spiritual gifts were manifested/allowed.

It's a regular occurrence at our church. I'm not bragging or anything, just saying.

Back around 2010 we would normally have 2 or 3 tongues messages with interpretations following each. Sometimes a person with the gift of prophesying would give a message there, but mostly it was tongues and interpretation.

Just one service of 3 tongues messages and interpretations would make my whole week just filled with back to back revelation and teaching from The Holy Spirit. I learned so much by example that way and wrote a lot of stuff down that I was given ideas over. Most of the teaching on the gifts I have was given by revelation during those few years. My prayer life was amazingly strong throughout this period also.

The people badmouthing the gifts are really missing out big time. I understand why they bad mouth them when they have bad examples on tv to point out to everyone, but finding a church where the people know The Holy Spirit and move with Him as He operates the gifts during the service, completely dispels all the hate.

 

[jiminpa]

You've been hanging out in the catholic-lite churches for too long Oscarr.

We regularly have a tongues message with an interpretation following it most Sundays.

It's not the hanging out that is such an issue, though. It's the content of the posts holding some crazy combination of humanism and paganism as the standard for Christianity that's the real issue. But then, that's the standard for Reformed theology.

 

[jiminpa]

If there is regular evidence of the correct use of tongues, people being healed of serious medical conditions, demons cast out, and the good news being preached with the result of people turning to Christ, there one could say that the Holy Spirit is involved. I won't make any comments about handling snakes and ingesting poison because I simply don't know how those fit in.

The problem is that there is so much misuse of tongues that it is almost impossible to find a church that is using the gift correctly. Also, none of the prominent healing evangelists can provide evidence of people really being healed of heart failure, cancer, or any other serious illness. Sure there is plenty hoopla involving people being slain in the Spirit, but even though there seems to power to do that, there is not enough power to get the same person healed. There was a Kenneth Copeland video clip of a person being slain in the Spirit falling backwards in his wheelchair, but he still couldn't get out of the wheelchair and start walking. Also, there are people casting demons out where there are no actual demons at all. Just because someone's mother in law is accused of having a demon doesn't mean that she actually has one. Also, there are a lot of motivational speechmaking, but no increase in people turning to Christ.

Even in the School of Supernatural Ministry where healing is taught, you would think that the tutors and students would be able to practice what they teach, but no. They all got Covid and had to close the school down until everyone got well again. So the evidence is overwhelming to support that in most if not all cases, the true work of the Holy Spirit has not got beyond speechmaking about it, rather than the expected powerful outcome as a followup to the talk.

Did Jesus have the people he healed get doctor certification to prove His validity to the pharisees? They didn't accept what He did. The phonies in this forum aren't looking to believe; they are looking to destroy.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Did Jesus have the people he healed get doctor certification to prove His validity to the pharisees? They didn't accept what He did. The phonies in this forum aren't looking to believe; they are looking to destroy.

When people were healed through Jesus' ministry, they were actually healed and the evidence was right there for all to see. Each healing event was witnessed by many people. The deaf actually did hear, the dumb spoke, the blind saw, and the lame got up and walked. There was no "take it by faith" stuff that is often seen in modern healing conferences. Much of what we see in modern healing events is people being "healed" of back pain, headaches, supposed cancers - conditions that cannot be seen. We don't see people actually being healed of deafness, blindness and lameness. Even the most celebrated healer could not get a guy to get out of his wheelchair even through the guy was 'slain' in the Spirit.

Therefore when a blind guy is healed, the evidence is right there and a doctor's certificate is not needed. The same with a disabled person getting out of his wheelchair and walking normally after years of not being able to walk. But as I said, we don't see actual healing like that that are so obvious that a doctor's certificate is not needed.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I get what your saying @Watchman1 but I think the issue is you are basing your thesis here off of people who are proven phonies and charlatan's. People who actually walk in these gifts are not going to be video taping them to post them on YouTube for views and social clout.

I can speak just from my own personal experience on some of these, not all, but some.

I grew up in a Baptist cessationist church and it took the Lord Jesus personally talking to me, audible voice, and healing me from Mental Illness for me to realize that I had been taught wrong. So I went to a Pentecostal church and asked them to pray over me so I could speak in tongues. Well that particular church did not do altar calls, so they sent me to an elder's house where for 2 hours the man tried to force tongues onto me by repeating phrases and such. I told him I wouldn't do it, that my understanding of the gift is it would be spontaneous like with the first Pentecost. Well he got mad and kicked me out of the house. When I got home I prayed about it and heard on single word, "Pentecost". I asked the Lord for confirmation, and what He told me is that on the day of Pentecost, I would receive the gift of tongues. So I continued praying and persevering. And exactly as I had been told, it happened. I was praying in my prayer closet on the day of Pentecost and just out of no where I went from English to some entirely foreign to me. No forcing, no fakery. Now I'm never used this gift in a church, I've never attended a church that allowed time for this gift to be used unfortunately. I am involved with a house church now and they have regularly used tongues in our meetings with interpretations. There have been prophecies spoken and healings.

I get what you are trying to say about healings, with most healings being the kind that we can't "see". Who I am to question whether they are real or not? If the minister is faking healings just to pad his spiritual resume a little bit then that minister will be dealt with on the day of Judgement and that is not something I should concern myself with. We all know that Jesus said such people would exist and that He would deal with them. But that doesn't mean that all healings with no outward change are fake or false.

I have personally prayed for people that were healed. I take no credit for that of course, it was the Lord working through me, so I know from first hand experience that healings can be real. One was a disabled man who was able to walk without use of a cane again and my wife had a neck issue that was healed while we were talking over the phone.

Now I think this gets at a bigger issue in Christianity though. Why aren't there more healings and miracles and such? Well the cessationist would tell you it's because they aren't needed any more. That the canon of scripture is complete and therefore those things, God witnessing to the gospel by signs and wonders and giftings are no longer needed. That is false. Scripture says that is false, for in 1 Corinthians 1:7, Paul wrote that we would not lack any gift as we await the revelation of Jesus at the end. Even the main verse cessationists use to support their nonsense is being misinterpreted, 1 Corinthians 13:8.

So if they aren't happening and it's not because they aren't available then what is going on? I don't honestly know, at least not in my country. I've heard that overseas in nations where Christians are actively persecuted for their faith that the gifts and miracles are a regular occurance, so perhaps that is something that should be considered. In Western society, Christians have it cushy, there's no desperation for the power of God in our lives. We cry out to God when we are a couple of dollars short for our favorite coffee. We feel persecuted if someone takes our favorite seat in church. People are not pursuiting God as they ought. It's ultimately a lack of faith and not even Jesus could do many works in an environment that lacked faith. I'm ashamed at the things I've heard people say inside churches about their lack of scripture knowledge or discipline in following God. They are being failed, miserably by their leadership, and that is having a direct reflection in their walk with God. God is not showing Himself to them, because they are not reaching out to Him. We want all the power and want to do nothing to attain it. Not that we earn the gifts or that we earn God's favor but the Lord said, "Draw near to me and I will draw near to you!"

Sorry, rant over. God bless you all

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I get what your saying @Watchman1 but I think the issue is you are basing your thesis here off of people who are proven phonies and charlatan's. People who actually walk in these gifts are not going to be video taping them to post them on YouTube for views and social clout.

I can speak just from my own personal experience on some of these, not all, but some.

I grew up in a Baptist cessationist church and it took the Lord Jesus personally talking to me, audible voice, and healing me from Mental Illness for me to realize that I had been taught wrong. So I went to a Pentecostal church and asked them to pray over me so I could speak in tongues. Well that particular church did not do altar calls, so they sent me to an elder's house where for 2 hours the man tried to force tongues onto me by repeating phrases and such. I told him I wouldn't do it, that my understanding of the gift is it would be spontaneous like with the first Pentecost. Well he got mad and kicked me out of the house. When I got home I prayed about it and heard on single word, "Pentecost". I asked the Lord for confirmation, and what He told me is that on the day of Pentecost, I would receive the gift of tongues. So I continued praying and persevering. And exactly as I had been told, it happened. I was praying in my prayer closet on the day of Pentecost and just out of no where I went from English to some entirely foreign to me. No forcing, no fakery. Now I'm never used this gift in a church, I've never attended a church that allowed time for this gift to be used unfortunately. I am involved with a house church now and they have regularly used tongues in our meetings with interpretations. There have been prophecies spoken and healings.

I get what you are trying to say about healings, with most healings being the kind that we can't "see". Who I am to question whether they are real or not? If the minister is faking healings just to pad his spiritual resume a little bit then that minister will be dealt with on the day of Judgement and that is not something I should concern myself with. We all know that Jesus said such people would exist and that He would deal with them. But that doesn't mean that all healings with no outward change are fake or false.

I have personally prayed for people that were healed. I take no credit for that of course, it was the Lord working through me, so I know from first hand experience that healings can be real. One was a disabled man who was able to walk without use of a cane again and my wife had a neck issue that was healed while we were talking over the phone.

Now I think this gets at a bigger issue in Christianity though. Why aren't there more healings and miracles and such? Well the cessationist would tell you it's because they aren't needed any more. That the canon of scripture is complete and therefore those things, God witnessing to the gospel by signs and wonders and giftings are no longer needed. That is false. Scripture says that is false, for in 1 Corinthians 1:7, Paul wrote that we would not lack any gift as we await the revelation of Jesus at the end. Even the main verse cessationists use to support their nonsense is being misinterpreted, 1 Corinthians 13:8.

So if they aren't happening and it's not because they aren't available then what is going on? I don't honestly know, at least not in my country. I've heard that overseas in nations where Christians are actively persecuted for their faith that the gifts and miracles are a regular occurance, so perhaps that is something that should be considered. In Western society, Christians have it cushy, there's no desperation for the power of God in our lives. We cry out to God when we are a couple of dollars short for our favorite coffee. We feel persecuted if someone takes our favorite seat in church. People are not pursuiting God as they ought. It's ultimately a lack of faith and not even Jesus could do many works in an environment that lacked faith. I'm ashamed at the things I've heard people say inside churches about their lack of scripture knowledge or discipline in following God. They are being failed, miserably by their leadership, and that is having a direct reflection in their walk with God. God is not showing Himself to them, because they are not reaching out to Him. We want all the power and want to do nothing to attain it. Not that we earn the gifts or that we earn God's favor but the Lord said, "Draw near to me and I will draw near to you!"

Sorry, rant over. God bless you all

The thing that cancels out all the whys and wherefores about healing is when a disabled person in a wheelchair is prayed for and the person gets up and starts walking normally. There's no discussion. The person is healed, period. The conversation around whether the person is healed or not, or whether it was God's direct power or the person's faith, stops, because the person is healed and everyone can see that the healing has taken place. The same thing can be said concerning a blind, deaf or dumb person being healed. Either they can see, hear or speak, or not. If they can, they are healed, if they can't then they aren't healed. There is no middle position where a person says, maybe I'm healed if I have enough faith. Having enough faith has nothing to do with it. Either God heals the person outright or not at all.

The problem in most church that pray for the sick, is that nothing really happens outside of the speech-making about it. Of course, there aren't many disabled, blind, deaf or dumb people attending Sunday services; and it is much easier to pray for someone who has a sore back, headache, arthritis, or cancer, where the immediate outcome cannot be seen. That's when a medical report is needed to verify whether a healing as actually taken place. Todd Bentley, one prominent healing evangelist who made all sorts of claims was asked to provide just 5 medical reports validating healing, and he couldn't provide them. Yet he claimed healing of heart conditions, cancers, raising people from the dead, people rising out of wheelchairs, etc. But he couldn't prove any of them, and no observable healings actually took place in his services.

Therefore the proof of healing is that the person is genuinely healed right there and then, and doesn't need to be sent away with the same condition with which he came.

The proof of whether tongues is genuine or not, is shown in the correct application of tongues and interpretation as taught by Paul in 1Corinthians 14, and the interpretation in plain direct language comforts, exhorts, encourages, and builds up the listeners. If the interpretation consists of religious hokus pokus word salad meaning nothing substantive, then one can safely doubt the genuinness of it.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

The thing that cancels out all the whys and wherefores about healing is when a disabled person in a wheelchair is prayed for and the person gets up and starts walking normally. There's no discussion. The person is healed, period. The conversation around whether the person is healed or not, or whether it was God's direct power or the person's faith, stops, because the person is healed and everyone can see that the healing has taken place. The same thing can be said concerning a blind, deaf or dumb person being healed. Either they can see, hear or speak, or not. If they can, they are healed, if they can't then they aren't healed. There is no middle position where a person says, maybe I'm healed if I have enough faith. Having enough faith has nothing to do with it. Either God heals the person outright or not at all.

The problem in most church that pray for the sick, is that nothing really happens outside of the speech-making about it. Of course, there aren't many disabled, blind, deaf or dumb people attending Sunday services; and it is much easier to pray for someone who has a sore back, headache, arthritis, or cancer, where the immediate outcome cannot be seen. That's when a medical report is needed to verify whether a healing as actually taken place. Todd Bentley, one prominent healing evangelist who made all sorts of claims was asked to provide just 5 medical reports validating healing, and he couldn't provide them. Yet he claimed healing of heart conditions, cancers, raising people from the dead, people rising out of wheelchairs, etc. But he couldn't prove any of them, and no observable healings actually took place in his services.

Therefore the proof of healing is that the person is genuinely healed right there and then, and doesn't need to be sent away with the same condition with which he came.

The proof of whether tongues is genuine or not, is shown in the correct application of tongues and interpretation as taught by Paul in 1Corinthians 14, and the interpretation in plain direct language comforts, exhorts, encourages, and builds up the listeners. If the interpretation consists of religious hokus pokus word salad meaning nothing substantive, then one can safely doubt the genuinness of it.

As I said, there will always be people who use live action stage props to make themselves out to be more than they are. People always use the one that you mentioned around here as if he alone is proof that healings and the gifts are frauds or fakes. That's just not the case, and no one is obligated to run to a doctor after being ministered to just to have proof that they've been healed. That's just silly.

I get what you are saying, and I'm not entirely opposed to it. We should be on guard against people who are faking these things, especially if they are leading the congregation or fellowship we attend. But I'm not going to question every single person who gets healed for proof from a medical professional. There will be other ways that the wolves will be manifest, pride, arrogance, lack of genuine love.

Besides, Jesus didn't call me (or really anyone) to be fruit inspectors, He said He would handle that. We are just to walk in His steps. So instead of demanding proof of every healing, next time we see someone in a sling or wheelchair, let's ask them if we can pray for them. I don't know, maybe the Lord will make them get up? Maybe He will mend a broken bone? This is a far better alternative to sitting on the sidelines and criticizing people for actually trying.

 

[ARBITER01]

Besides, Jesus didn't call me (or really anyone) to be fruit inspectors, He said He would handle that. We are just to walk in His steps.

You might want to look into what Jesus said about fruits,....

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not that I want to interrupt your conversation with Oscarr and take it another direction, but yes, we are suppose to know people and their fruits. Now the understanding and knowledge associated with who is doing what comes from The Holy Spirit, but yes we will ultimately know who is following The Lord correctly and who isn't.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

You might want to look into what Jesus said about fruits,....

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not that I want to interrupt your conversation with Oscarr and take it another direction, but yes, we are suppose to know people and their fruits. Now the understanding and knowledge associated with who is doing what comes from The Holy Spirit, but yes we will ultimately know who is following The Lord correctly and who isn't.

I don't think the intent there is to create a fruit inspection division within the church. Lots of people feel this is their calling unfortunately, instead of doing what I believe the ultimate intent was, living as salt and light. You know:

You are the salt of the earth, you are the light of the world.

I think Paul explains this some in Ephesians 5:8-13.

Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible,
Ephesians 5:8‭-‬13 ESV

When we walk as children of light, we expose those in darkness by our actions.

Otherwise I feel we run the risk of falling into judgement, Judge not, lest ye be judged type deal.

Funny, except for the passage of Paul's that I used here, all of these scriptures come from the Sermon on the Mount, a Sermon where Jesus repeated emphasizes having the right motives and doing the right deeds before the Father.

I just don't see the need for the crusade here, it's a rather tired argument. If he is that concerned with it, instead of complaining about it on the internet he should go out and put his critiques into practice. That's the point I'm trying to get at.

 

[ARBITER01]

I just don't see the need for the crusade here, it's a rather tired argument. If he is that concerned with it, instead of complaining about it on the internet he should go out and put his critiques into practice. That's the point I'm trying to get at.

Just as a heads up,.....Sometimes people are not taking their medications like they are suppose to do, and we get dragged into unnecessary arguments from them.