Use of military force

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A look at Christians and the use of military force. Can just war doctrine be supported by scripture?

  1. Should we be undoing the historical roots of modern German pacifism?
  2. What is the value of the military in protecting values, existence, and weaker countries beyond its borders?
  3. Can force ever be a good thing from a Christian perspective?
  4. How do we distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate rationales for the use of force?
  5. Is Western decadence a sufficient rationale for a Christian to support a war against it, for example (as in the case of Kirill in Russia).
 

The IbanezerScrooge

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1. I'm not familiar enough with this to give an answer.

2. Regional stability, perhaps? Basic human rights?

3. I feel like the Old Testament speaks to this.

4. Mostly, those that would be in the best interests of the country from a political/diplomatic standpoint, economics and human rights.

5. No, I don't think so. We are not arbiters of others' choices. If what a culture does within its borders doesn't directly harm others and everyone is consenting then I don't see how some external force can justify attacking that with force because they disagree with it.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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If a war is to stop Terrorism against Our Country it is always justified. There was a convention to define the rules of battle.
Just War Theory | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy History of just war theory

"
The presumption of the theory, in keeping with Augustine’s stance, is against war. The theory falls in two main parts: jus ad bellum, which is concerned with the ethics of declaring war; and jus in bello, concerned with conduct during war. (Today, ethicists have increasingly been talking of jus post bellum, concerned with the conduct of the victorious party after the war.) The criteria can be summarised as follows:

Jus ad bellum

1. Wars must be fought only on legitimate authority. This criterion aimed to limit conflicts by small-scale barons, captains and princelings, and is often treated as the sine qua non of Just War Theory. [4]

2. The cause must be just. The war must be fought, for example, in order to resist aggression, protect the innocent, or to support the rights of some oppressed group. There must be significant reasons which are weighty enough to overthrow the prima facie duty that we should not kill or injure others.

3. The war must have right intention. It must advance the good and avoid evil, have clear aims and be open to negotiation; it must not be for revenge or for the sake of killing and there should be no ulterior motive. It must be waged without love of violence, or cruelty; and regret or remorse should be the proper attitude. This is shaped by the pursuit of a just cause. Since peace should be the object of war, killing is a means to that end. This condition also holds for jus in bello.

4. It must be a last resort, all other attempts having failed or being unavailable.

5. There must be a reasonable hope of justice, or a reasonable chance of success, in order to prevent pointless wars. If there is no such hope, then it would not just be imprudent, but there would be no good grounds to override the prima facie obligation to not harm others if none of the just ends can be realised, and thus going to war would be immoral. [5]

Jus in bello

6. There must be discrimination. Non-combatants should not be directly or intentionally attacked, although it is recognised that there may be accidental casualties.

7. There must be proportion; that is, there must be a balance between the good achieved versus the harm done. This condition takes into account the effects on all human beings, not just those on one side, and it is the effects on humans rather than other physical damage which have priority. This condition also applies to jus ad bellum, in order to prevent going to war over minor disputes.

A just war, then, is not a war in which both sides act justly; in fact there cannot be such a war. For a war to be just, that war must be waged in order to right a wrong or to prevent an imminent injustice."
 
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jacks

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The problem with any war is it mostly kills the innocent and unwilling participants. They are usually perpetrated by leaders whos motives can be suspect and self serving. There has got to be a better way. Involving ourselves in any war should only be a desperate act of last resort.
 
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Romans 13
 
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Deuteronomy 20:10-11
Good News Translation
10 “When you go to attack a city, first give its people a chance to surrender. 11 If they open the gates and surrender, they are all to become your slaves and do forced labor for you.

Luke 14:31-32
Good News Translation
31 If a king goes out with ten thousand men to fight another king who comes against him with twenty thousand men, he will sit down first and decide if he is strong enough to face that other king. 32 If he isn't, he will send messengers to meet the other king to ask for terms of peace while he is still a long way off.
 
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mindlight

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The problem with any war is it mostly kills the innocent and unwilling participants. They are usually perpetrated by leaders whos motives can be suspect and self serving. There has got to be a better way. Involving ourselves in any war should only be a desperate act of last resort.

This has been the standard position of most sane people in the last seventy years and especially because the new weaponry available to us today has raised the stakes of war to one that threatens the very planet and the quality of all our lives in any war's aftermath.

Just war doctrine combined with smart weaponry should in theory make the death of the innocent unnecessary in war but as the Ukraine war tutors us this is not the case in practice. Indeed even defensive missiles have also killed civilians.

In the bible, wars were of many different types, defensive ones, offensive ones, and the genocidal purging away of the irredeemable. Christians have fought wars over land, relics, over gold, power, and marriage partners - the list is long. I happen to believe that on occasions fighting a war is the best way indeed maybe the only way to achieve a righteous outcome.
 
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If a war is to stop Terrorism against Our Country it is always justified. There was a convention to define the rules of battle.
Just War Theory | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy History of just war theory

"
The presumption of the theory, in keeping with Augustine’s stance, is against war. The theory falls in two main parts: jus ad bellum, which is concerned with the ethics of declaring war; and jus in bello, concerned with conduct during war. (Today, ethicists have increasingly been talking of jus post bellum, concerned with the conduct of the victorious party after the war.) The criteria can be summarised as follows:

Jus ad bellum

1. Wars must be fought only on legitimate authority. This criterion aimed to limit conflicts by small-scale barons, captains and princelings, and is often treated as the sine qua non of Just War Theory. [4]

2. The cause must be just. The war must be fought, for example, in order to resist aggression, protect the innocent, or to support the rights of some oppressed group. There must be significant reasons which are weighty enough to overthrow the prima facie duty that we should not kill or injure others.

3. The war must have right intention. It must advance the good and avoid evil, have clear aims and be open to negotiation; it must not be for revenge or for the sake of killing and there should be no ulterior motive. It must be waged without love of violence, or cruelty; and regret or remorse should be the proper attitude. This is shaped by the pursuit of a just cause. Since peace should be the object of war, killing is a means to that end. This condition also holds for jus in bello.

4. It must be a last resort, all other attempts having failed or being unavailable.

5. There must be a reasonable hope of justice, or a reasonable chance of success, in order to prevent pointless wars. If there is no such hope, then it would not just be imprudent, but there would be no good grounds to override the prima facie obligation to not harm others if none of the just ends can be realised, and thus going to war would be immoral. [5]

Jus in bello

6. There must be discrimination. Non-combatants should not be directly or intentionally attacked, although it is recognised that there may be accidental casualties.

7. There must be proportion; that is, there must be a balance between the good achieved versus the harm done. This condition takes into account the effects on all human beings, not just those on one side, and it is the effects on humans rather than other physical damage which have priority. This condition also applies to jus ad bellum, in order to prevent going to war over minor disputes.

A just war, then, is not a war in which both sides act justly; in fact there cannot be such a war. For a war to be just, that war must be waged in order to right a wrong or to prevent an imminent injustice."

Thanks for the info dumping here. I am preparing for a discussion group and your examples will come in handy nearer the time.

There is clearly a wide range of justifications for war and historical examples in scripture which help us to understand them also. Augustine crystallized the original doctrine and many thinkers have expanded on it since. I will read through these later
 
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J_B_

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I would refer you to Luther's On War Against the Turk. During Luther's time, corruption of the Church was not the only concern, but also the fact that Ottomans (Muslims) were rolling through Europe, and it seemed possible they would take it all.

Luther begins by noting he had considered the possibility that if the Ottomans reached Germany, he would likely be executed because of his very public record supporting Christianity and opposing other religions. At the same time, he criticized the RCC for its Crusades. He makes a further point that, though he had never known a Turk, he imagined they tried just as hard as Germans to be good parents and honest businessmen.

To summarize, his thesis was this: You have a right to defend yourself, but don't make this a religious war. The way to overcome the Ottoman armies should they invade, is well-trained, well-equipped German soldiers (and French, English, etc.). The way to overcome Islam is to preach the Gospel.
 
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FireDragon76

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A look at Christians and the use of military force. Can just war doctrine be supported by scripture?

  1. Should we be undoing the historical roots of modern German pacifism?
  2. What is the value of the military in protecting values, existence, and weaker countries beyond its borders?
  3. Can force ever be a good thing from a Christian perspective?
  4. How do we distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate rationales for the use of force?
  5. Is Western decadence a sufficient rationale for a Christian to support a war against it, for example (as in the case of Kirill in Russia).

Kiril's logic is anti-Christ. You don't do evil so that good may come out of it.
 
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RDKirk

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The use of force is not justifiable by the New Testament.

Yes, all earthly governments use force to maintain their wealth and power...but they are not justified (scripturally: "made righteous") in their use of force. Jesus will destroy all earthly governments when He returns. Jesus did not lie: "Everyone who lives by the sword will die by the sword."
 
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VCR-2000

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Disclaimer: my take is an extra-biblical once.

-Even a cop has the right to using any kind of force to subdue an attacker.
-Even if scripture said otherwise, it is observed in history that sometimes the use of force is necessary or even inevitable.
 
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VCR-2000

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If a war is to stop Terrorism against Our Country it is always justified. There was a convention to define the rules of battle.
Just War Theory | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy History of just war theory

"
The presumption of the theory, in keeping with Augustine’s stance, is against war. The theory falls in two main parts: jus ad bellum, which is concerned with the ethics of declaring war; and jus in bello, concerned with conduct during war. (Today, ethicists have increasingly been talking of jus post bellum, concerned with the conduct of the victorious party after the war.) The criteria can be summarised as follows:

Jus ad bellum

1. Wars must be fought only on legitimate authority. This criterion aimed to limit conflicts by small-scale barons, captains and princelings, and is often treated as the sine qua non of Just War Theory. [4]

2. The cause must be just. The war must be fought, for example, in order to resist aggression, protect the innocent, or to support the rights of some oppressed group. There must be significant reasons which are weighty enough to overthrow the prima facie duty that we should not kill or injure others.

3. The war must have right intention. It must advance the good and avoid evil, have clear aims and be open to negotiation; it must not be for revenge or for the sake of killing and there should be no ulterior motive. It must be waged without love of violence, or cruelty; and regret or remorse should be the proper attitude. This is shaped by the pursuit of a just cause. Since peace should be the object of war, killing is a means to that end. This condition also holds for jus in bello.

4. It must be a last resort, all other attempts having failed or being unavailable.

5. There must be a reasonable hope of justice, or a reasonable chance of success, in order to prevent pointless wars. If there is no such hope, then it would not just be imprudent, but there would be no good grounds to override the prima facie obligation to not harm others if none of the just ends can be realised, and thus going to war would be immoral. [5]

Jus in bello

6. There must be discrimination. Non-combatants should not be directly or intentionally attacked, although it is recognised that there may be accidental casualties.

7. There must be proportion; that is, there must be a balance between the good achieved versus the harm done. This condition takes into account the effects on all human beings, not just those on one side, and it is the effects on humans rather than other physical damage which have priority. This condition also applies to jus ad bellum, in order to prevent going to war over minor disputes.

A just war, then, is not a war in which both sides act justly; in fact there cannot be such a war. For a war to be just, that war must be waged in order to right a wrong or to prevent an imminent injustice."
For one, why does it sound like Augustine is appealing to "legitimate" earthly authorities?
 
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VCR-2000

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The use of force is not justifiable by the New Testament.

Yes, all earthly governments use force to maintain their wealth and power...but they are not justified (scripturally: "made righteous") in their use of force. Jesus will destroy all earthly governments when He returns. Jesus did not lie: "Everyone who lives by the sword will die by the sword."
I disagree with the NT on this one, I think anyone should be allowed to use force if it's necessary within their own jurisdiction to subdue an individual or collective threat.

What would you have thought if the Western powers unilaterally disarmed their nuclear weapons programs in the Cold War after seeing the great damage that nukes can cause?

Some people are extremely evil and a lot of people don't understand.
 
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RDKirk

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I disagree with the NT on this one, I think anyone should be allowed to use force if it's necessary within their own jurisdiction to subdue an individual or collective threat.

What would you have thought if the Western powers unilaterally disarmed their nuclear weapons programs in the Cold War after seeing the great damage that nukes can cause?

Some people are extremely evil and a lot of people don't understand.
I spent 26 years in the military, and I'm currently licensed to carry a concealed firearm. I train with my firearms (I have a number) weekly.

I think the NT is correct guidance for Christians. For Christians, use of violence is never righteous (which is what "justified" means in Christian terms), but to be avoided if possible and abhorred and grieved if the fallen nature of the world makes it necessary.
 
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mindlight

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I spent 26 years in the military, and I'm currently licensed to carry a concealed firearm. I train with my firearms (I have a number) weekly.

I think the NT is correct guidance for Christians. For Christians, use of violence is never righteous (which is what "justified" means in Christian terms), but to be avoided if possible and abhorred and grieved if the fallen nature of the world makes it necessary.

The use of force can be righteous and not just a regrettable last resort. God has an army! (Joshua 5:13-15). Why have military angels if not to use them occasionally in battle? The existence of hell is another proof that violence is sometimes God's solution to a problem. No one would jump into hell voluntarily. Similarly, earthly authorities are there to serve the common good and can use the power of the sword.

it is a servant of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a servant of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Romans 13:4

What needs resisting is the attempt to translate worldly ambition into spiritual language. Soldiers can be righteous even in the act of killing even if the narrative of their leaders is flawed.
 
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