Uganda legislature passes a law making it a crime to be gay [law signed, includes death penalty for some cases]

[Larniavc]

I've already done so in other threads on transgenderism. Go look it up.

I’ve searched you recent posts: nothing.

 

[Larniavc]

Why would fewer gay folks die? What in this law causes gay folks to die?

In Uganda they’ll kill you for it.

 

[rjs330]

In Uganda they’ll kill you for it.

For being gay?

 

[Larniavc]

For being gay?

Uganda is not alone in criminalizing homosexuality. According to Human Dignity Trust, 11 countries have same-sex relations punishable by death: Afghanistan, Brunei, Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, the United Arab Emirates and Yemen. At least six of the 11 countries mandate the death penalty, while the other five have death as a potential punishment.

 

[rjs330]

I’ve searched you recent posts: nothing.

Oh good grief please read through the reads not just recent. It's been discuss d ad nauseum. You are not the first to make the claim that it's not happening.

Because I don't want to waist my time with you here's just a couple of examples. So if you think I can't show evidence I've proven I can. The rest is on you.

https://nypost.com/2023/05/31/runner-chelsea-mitchell-who-lost-to-trans-athletes-this-is-about-fairnes/

Hundreds of Teen ‘Gender-Affirming’ Mastectomies Each Year | National Review

The number of ‘gender-affirming’ mastectomies performed on teenagers has increased exponentially.

www.nationalreview.com

Trans Student Exposes Genitalia To Freshmen Girls In School Locker Room Shower

If you dismiss these things then you have just proven my point that there is no reason to try and provide any evidence to you because you will just dismiss it. I'm not going to do the work only for you to dismiss it in a post.

Your country is realizing the problems with the current treatments in kids. It even shut down a clinic doing it.

How Tavistock Came Tumbling Down

Sweden has also backed off these things. Realizing the treatments aren't really doing things right for the kids.

So, the balls in your court. Are you going to listen or just dismiss.

 

[rjs330]

Uganda is not alone in criminalizing homosexuality. According to Human Dignity Trust, 11 countries have same-sex relations punishable by death: Afghanistan, Brunei, Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, the United Arab Emirates and Yemen. At least six of the 11 countries mandate the death penalty, while the other five have death as a potential punishment.

There are 67 countries who have anti LGBT laws. And I brought up Islamic countries earlier and some of you were very upset about it. And you obviously here have tried a MAJOR deflection. I suspect it's because you know the truth and don't want to admit it.
Soni ask again. Does Uganda have the death penalty for being gay? It's an easy question to answer. Will you just deflect again?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

For being gay?

I think the concern people have with this law is the fact that uses some pretty vague or "easy to be broadly interpreted" langauge.

Defenders of the law claim "the death penalty is only for people who try to do it with children"

However, their defined legal code of what they call "aggravated homosexuality" isn't nearly that specific.

It includes things like:
“promoting and abetting homosexuality, as well as conspiracy to engage in homosexuality.”
and
"It also penalizes so-called aggravated homosexuality with death. That charge applies if the accused had gay sex with someone under 18, or held undue influence over the “victim of the offense.”

With how non-specific a few of those are, "conspiracy to engage" or "held undue influence" could mean everything from the legitimate stuff (like rape and child abuse), all the way over to trivial things like "using a pick-up line at a bar" or "hitting on someone"


Thus the reason even some staunch conservatives are coming out against the law like Ted Cruz.

Opinion | Ted Cruz cleared the lowest bar possible for LGBTQ rights

His tweet condemning Uganda's new Anti-Homosexuality Act is on point — but it doesn't negate his anti-trans rights record.

www.msnbc.com

The common defense I hear of it is "oh, so you're against protecting children" when people critique it, however, I don't think that defense holds water as they don't have laws protecting against the same things for hetero situations.

A stat for reference:

• 34% of girls in Uganda are married before their 18th birthday and a 7% are married before the age of 15.

So basically, if a creepy 32 year old guy wants to marry a 15 year old girl, there's no laws against that. But if a 18 year old guy flirts with a 17 year old guy in public, he could get the death penalty.

 

[Larniavc]

Mutilating children is just flat wrong on all accounts and should be stopped regardless of what the Bible says.

This is what I was asking for evidence of. What you posted as evidence in you last post to me has nothing to do with the above.

Your second link was already discussed in a previous thread and found to be inaccurate.

 

[rjs330]

I think the concern people have with this law is the fact that uses some pretty vague or "easy to be broadly interpreted" langauge.

Defenders of the law claim "the death penalty is only for people who try to do it with children"

However, their defined legal code of what they call "aggravated homosexuality" isn't nearly that specific.

It includes things like:
“promoting and abetting homosexuality, as well as conspiracy to engage in homosexuality.”
and
"It also penalizes so-called aggravated homosexuality with death. That charge applies if the accused had gay sex with someone under 18, or held undue influence over the “victim of the offense.”

With how non-specific a few of those are, "conspiracy to engage" or "held undue influence" could mean everything from the legitimate stuff (like rape and child abuse), all the way over to trivial things like "using a pick-up line at a bar" or "hitting on someone"


Thus the reason even some staunch conservatives are coming out against the law like Ted Cruz.

Opinion | Ted Cruz cleared the lowest bar possible for LGBTQ rights

His tweet condemning Uganda's new Anti-Homosexuality Act is on point — but it doesn't negate his anti-trans rights record.

www.msnbc.com

The common defense I hear of it is "oh, so you're against protecting children" when people critique it, however, I don't think that defense holds water as they don't have laws protecting against the same things for hetero situations.

A stat for reference:

• 34% of girls in Uganda are married before their 18th birthday and a 7% are married before the age of 15.

So basically, if a creepy 32 year old guy wants to marry a 15 year old girl, there's no laws against that. But if a 18 year old guy flirts with a 17 year old guy in public, he could get the death penalty.

I get some of the issues with it and I've already expressed the fact that I am not in favor of all of it. Some I am fine with.

The issue I have is also the claim that there is a death penalty for being gay. Which is not true. It's flatly disinformation.

 

[rjs330]

This is what I was asking for evidence of. What you posted as evidence in you last post to me has nothing to do with the above.

Your second link was already discussed in a previous thread and found to be inaccurate.

Of course it is. Cutting off perfectly healthy breasts of young girls is mutilation. Ha r you seen the scars? Now they cannot breastfeed either when they decide they want to. There are stories of that as well which has mental health effects. I can't post photos of this act on this thread so you'll have to look yourself. If we chopped off kids arms you would call it mutilation. There is no other reason to cut off a girls breasts in this manner just over feelings.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I get some of the issues with it and I've already expressed the fact that I am not in favor of all of it. Some I am fine with.

The issue I have is also the claim that there is a death penalty for being gay. Which is not true. It's flatly disinformation.

While their laws doesn't explicitly say that, it's weakly crafted in a way that would almost certainly allow that to happen depending on what kind of 3rd world Kangaroo court they wind up in.

For instance "conspiracy to engage in homosexual acts"... How does one define that?

Conspiracy in legal terms is "the action of planning to do something". "He's clearly gay, therefore he must be thinking about acting on it at some point" is the kind of flimsy prosecution we can expect to see (if the other countries with similarly worded laws are any indication)

"Abetting Homosexuality" is another disconcertingly vague one. So two gay people are aware of each other, and agree not to rat each other out to the authorities...have they officially broken that rule?

Some people on the left harped on me on a different thread a few months back (about that pastor who was refusing to accept release conditions because of how vague they were worded with responses like "well we all know what that means"), but hopefully this sort of thing will maybe highlight why I'm such a stickler for specificity in the law.

Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot, and you were living in a far-left governed jurisdiction, and they were passing laws that were weakly worded against "Religious Extremism" (without defining what that meant)

With clauses for vague things like "conspiracy to offend a marginalized person with extreme materials" or "abetting extreme viewpoints towards the LGBTQ community" (imposing extremely heavy-handed punishments)

I assume you probably wouldn't be cool with that sort of law, and I assume you'd rightfully want some of those terms more specifically defined. (especially if judges and lawmakers in said jurisdiction have already demonstrated their biases on the subject)



Even the parts of it I'd "be fine it", on paper (like strict punishments for crimes involving children and assault) are hollow in this context due to the fact that they don't seem to have any such protections defined for hetero equivalents...and is more or less just cover for what they want to do. (which is bash gay people)

A country that's allowing full grown men to marry 15 year olds (and sometimes younger) doesn't get to try to justify their bad law with the premise of "we're protecting children"

 

[Bradskii]

So, the balls in your court. Are you going to listen or just dismiss.

This needs to be addressed on a case by case position.

As regards the girl losing to transgender women in college athletics...yes, this needs to be addressed. Many sports organisations are coming to the realisation that they need look at the criteria for sports where having been born male and transitioned to a woman offers an unfair advantage. Yet again, it needs to be looked at case by case. It's reasonable tomexpect that.

Re masectomies, heading down a few links from story to story we end up at a medical website: JAMA Network. And there is a medical paper investigating 'the incidence, demographic characteristics, and spending related to ambulatory gender-affirming chest reconstruction in adolescents using nationally representative data from 2016 to 2019.' From here: Gender-Affirming Chest Reconstruction Among Transgender and Gender-Diverse Adolescents
You can't read it unless you have membership of a medical organisation but I would guess it might say pretty much what all medical papers say. That, as per the World Professional Association for Transgender Health Standards of Care, adolescents defer genital surgery until the age of consent. But that each case should be investigated individually. See this paper as an example: Chest Dysphoria and Chest Reconstruction Surgery in Transmasculine Youth

I really have lost count of the number of times I have said this. But ALL cases need to be addressed individually. It's a fallacy to say that one can find a specific example where there is concern and then say nothing should be done to anyone at any time, period. That's not the way medical matters are determined. And you were specifically asked for examples of where this procedure was performed unnecessarily. And your response was to link to an opinion piece in the National Review which used as a source a medical paper which I'd guess you certainly haven't read. So I'm giving that a fail.

As re Tavistock hospital, that's an example of children below the age of consent who were given treatment without the authorisation of a parent or guardian. I don't see that any reasonable person would argue that that is wrong. So...what is the point you are making? That specific one? Then well done. You've made a reasonable point. Which could have been made in your very first post.

Oh yeah. Some trans guy using the showers. The school knew he was trans and should have addressed that particular scenario. As the school district said:

The letter (from lawyers) "provides neither an accurate nor complete account of the events that occurred."
'The District has addressed the events that are the subject of WILL’s letter in a manner that should prevent any similar incident from recurring in the future. Further, the District has shared additional information with the parents involved.'

I'd say that they might have addressed the possibility earlier. But again, that's an incident where an organisation might not have taken enough steps to prevent an incident similar to this happening. So I guess your point is that they should have? Well, again, I'd agree.

 

[rjs330]

This needs to be addressed on a case by case position.

As regards the girl losing to transgender women in college athletics...yes, this needs to be addressed. Many sports organisations are coming to the realisation that they need look at the criteria for sports where having been born male and transitioned to a woman offers an unfair advantage. Yet again, it needs to be looked at case by case. It's reasonable tomexpect that.

Re masectomies, heading down a few links from story to story we end up at a medical website: JAMA Network. And there is a medical paper investigating 'the incidence, demographic characteristics, and spending related to ambulatory gender-affirming chest reconstruction in adolescents using nationally representative data from 2016 to 2019.' From here: Gender-Affirming Chest Reconstruction Among Transgender and Gender-Diverse Adolescents
You can't read it unless you have membership of a medical organisation but I would guess it might say pretty much what all medical papers say. That, as per the World Professional Association for Transgender Health Standards of Care, adolescents defer genital surgery until the age of consent. But that each case should be investigated individually. See this paper as an example: Chest Dysphoria and Chest Reconstruction Surgery in Transmasculine Youth

I really have lost count of the number of times I have said this. But ALL cases need to be addressed individually. It's a fallacy to say that one can find a specific example where there is concern and then say nothing should be done to anyone at any time, period. That's not the way medical matters are determined. And you were specifically asked for examples of where this procedure was performed unnecessarily. And your response was to link to an opinion piece in the National Review which used as a source a medical paper which I'd guess you certainly haven't read. So I'm giving that a fail.

As re Tavistock hospital, that's an example of children below the age of consent who were given treatment without the authorisation of a parent or guardian. I don't see that any reasonable person would argue that that is wrong. So...what is the point you are making? That specific one? Then well done. You've made a reasonable point. Which could have been made in your very first post.

Oh yeah. Some trans guy using the showers. The school knew he was trans and should have addressed that particular scenario. As the school district said:

The letter (from lawyers) "provides neither an accurate nor complete account of the events that occurred."
'The District has addressed the events that are the subject of WILL’s letter in a manner that should prevent any similar incident from recurring in the future. Further, the District has shared additional information with the parents involved.'

I'd say that they might have addressed the possibility earlier. But again, that's an incident where an organisation might not have taken enough steps to prevent an incident similar to this happening. So I guess your point is that they should have? Well, again, I'd agree.

So in other words I am right. These things have and do occur. That my point. None of these issues have disappeared. And the other part of this is the fact that they don't all appear in a news story somewhere on the internet. For every story of these types there are more of them that are not listed or picked up by a news organization that puts it in the internet for someone to find.

I know cause we have had things happen here in my town and you won't find it in the internet.

And the fact that these incident do happen and that Sweden has walked back their programs along with other places that are starting to look at other options we shouldn't be doing this to kids. Not for any reason. There is too much at stake. Too many desist. Too many have regret. You do not do this to children.

This from the Med Page Article.

Numbers of gender-affirming chest surgeries among transgender adolescents jumped 389% from 2016 to 2019, researchers reported.

Drawing on data from the Nationwide Ambulatory Surgery Sample, an estimated 1,130 chest reconstructive surgeries were performed on transgender and gender-diverse (TGD) adolescents during these years, Rishub Karan Das, BA, of Vanderbilt University School of Medicine in Nashville, and colleagues found.

Nearly all were masculinizing, with only 1.4% feminizing, the group wrote in a research letter appearing in JAMA Pediatricsopens in a new tab or window.

Only about 100 of these surgeries were performed in 2016, after which they steadily became more popular, surpassing 200 surgeries in 2017 and 300 by 2018. Das and colleagues put the 2019 total at 489 (P<0.001 vs 2016).

Ages of the adolescents ranged from 12 to 17, with a median of 16.

Then there is this.

More Trans Teens Are Choosing ‘Top Surgery’

Here's an add from Stanford Children's Health.

Top Surgery - Stanford Medicine Children's Health

Everyone deserves to have their physical body reflect their gender identity. Aligning the two brings peace of mind and gives gender diverse youth solid footing for stepping out into the world. We understand that making the life-altering decision to have top surgery isn’t simple. We’re here to...

www.stanfordchildrens.org

 

[Bradskii]

So in other words I am right.

That some transwomen compete with an advantage? Nobody said that doesn't happen. Should that be addressed? Yes, it should.

That some organisations have been slack in making sure that there are no situations where people are uncomfortable in changing rooms? Yeah, that has the case in some situations. Should they do better? Yes, they should.

That some medical facilities have overstepped ethical guidelines? Yes, it has happened and everyone thinks that it shouldn't.

So those are problems that, when they occur, need to be examined on an individual basis and addressed. Has someone said they shouldn't?

And just a heads up. If someone asks you for an example of children being 'mutilated' then come up with a specific example. A case study. And not a general opinion piece in some paper that gets it's info from another news outlet that references a medical paper that only medical professionals can access. It really beats me how you can offer something as an argument which you haven't even read.

 

[variant]

There are generally no words.

In Uganda gay people should simply resort to direct violence if "being gay" is going to be treated like resorting to violence anyway.

 

[Larniavc]

Cutting off perfectly healthy breasts of young girls is mutilation.

When has that even happened?

 

[hedrick]

So in other words I am right. These things have and do occur. That my point. None of these issues have disappeared. And the other part of this is the fact that they don't all appear in a news story somewhere on the internet. For every story of these types there are more of them that are not listed or picked up by a news organization that puts it in the internet for someone to find.

I know cause we have had things happen here in my town and you won't find it in the internet.

And the fact that these incident do happen and that Sweden has walked back their programs along with other places that are starting to look at other options we shouldn't be doing this to kids. Not for any reason. There is too much at stake. Too many desist. Too many have regret. You do not do this to children.

This from the Med Page Article.

Numbers of gender-affirming chest surgeries among transgender adolescents jumped 389% from 2016 to 2019, researchers reported.

Drawing on data from the Nationwide Ambulatory Surgery Sample, an estimated 1,130 chest reconstructive surgeries were performed on transgender and gender-diverse (TGD) adolescents during these years, Rishub Karan Das, BA, of Vanderbilt University School of Medicine in Nashville, and colleagues found.

Nearly all were masculinizing, with only 1.4% feminizing, the group wrote in a research letter appearing in JAMA Pediatricsopens in a new tab or window.

Only about 100 of these surgeries were performed in 2016, after which they steadily became more popular, surpassing 200 surgeries in 2017 and 300 by 2018. Das and colleagues put the 2019 total at 489 (P<0.001 vs 2016).

Ages of the adolescents ranged from 12 to 17, with a median of 16.

Then there is this.

More Trans Teens Are Choosing ‘Top Surgery’

Here's an add from Stanford Children's Health.

Top Surgery - Stanford Medicine Children's Health

Everyone deserves to have their physical body reflect their gender identity. Aligning the two brings peace of mind and gives gender diverse youth solid footing for stepping out into the world. We understand that making the life-altering decision to have top surgery isn’t simple. We’re here to...

www.stanfordchildrens.org

I don’t have any problem restricting surgery to adults. But the fed states aren’t trying to do reasonable restrictions. They are attacking tfans more broadly.

 

[rjs330]

When has that even happened?

I have already posted evidence of that happening. I figured you would dismiss this. Therefore I am not going to ever again attempt to provide evidence to you. So don't bother asking.

 

[rjs330]

That some transwomen compete with an advantage? Nobody said that doesn't happen. Should that be addressed? Yes, it should.

Why? If gender has nothing to do with biological sex then why do we need to do something? Are they women or are they not? If they are women we do t need to do anything. If they are not women then we do need to do something. So are they women or not?

It sounds like you are kind of in the side of they are not really women or girls. If they are women or girls why do we need to do anything? By staying something needs to be done you are admitting they are not really women or girls, except maybe in their minds.

 

[rjs330]

And just a heads up. If someone asks you for an example of children being 'mutilated' then come up with a specific example. A case study. And not a general opinion piece in some paper that gets it's info from another news outlet that references a medical paper that only medical professionals can access. It really beats me how you can offer something as an argument which you haven't even read.

I posted the specific statistics of this from the medical article which is linked to in the article I posted. Too bad you don't believe it. Unless you can show thise are wrong. It stands unless you can show the medical article is wrong. I made the statement, provided evidence for that statement which includes links to the medical article. I've done my job. You may close your eyes and say nuh,uh or you can show how the medical article is wrong.