There is no Rapture

[Jan001]

But the rest of Matt 24 is future to the first century and vs 27-33 is future to our day in most respects

Matthew 24:1-35 were fulfilled in the first century. All of these verses pertained to the destruction of the temple within that generation, and to warn Jesus' followers to prepare themselves to endure the persecution they would soon be subjected to. Apocalyptic symbolism was used to explain the destruction of the temple which was known as "the heaven and earth" of the Jews.

Matthew 24:1-2 As Jesus left the temple and was walking away, His disciples came up to Him to point out its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” He replied. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Matthew 24:32-35 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Must of it was future to the first century and all of Rev 16-22 is future to our day.

Most of Revelation 16-22 chapters were fulfilled in the first century AD. I think all that remains to be fulfilled is from Revelation 20:7 through the end of Revelation 22.

I have recently done more research, and I now think that Satan was released before the first century AD (many people were possessed by demons during Jesus' ministry), and so Satan still continues to this day his battle against God's people, and he will continue it until Jesus' second coming. Satan is still the leader, the father, of all the unbelievers from the four corners of the earth (Gog and Magog—from the whole earth), and they hate Christians and what they stand for.

A lot of Rev 14 is still future.

This was fulfilled in the first century AD. God's wrath was poured out on the Jews, their great city, and their temple because they refused to acknowledge Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

Luke 19:44 "They will smash you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave one stone upon another within you because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

 

[Guojing]

This was fulfilled in the first century AD. God's wrath was poured out on the Jews, their great city, and their temple because they refused to acknowledge Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

Who were the 2 witnesses then?

 

[Jan001]

Who were the 2 witnesses then?

The Law and the prophets were the two witnesses. The Books of the Law and the Prophets prophesied Israel's Messiah. When he came, Israel rejected him.

Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”

Luke 19:43-45 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you (Jerusalem), surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation (you rejected me).”

Mark 9:2-4 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them. 4 And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.

Moses represents the Law, and Elijah represents the Prophets.

 

[Jan001]

I now think the patriarchs of the OT and of the Davidic kingdom were the people of the (spiritual) first resurrection in Revelation 20 and they spiritually reign with Christ in heaven. Also, the martyrs of the OT are reigning with Jesus Christ in heaven as well. The Patriarchs prophesied that God would send a Messiah to Israel. Some of them were killed for this.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands (IOW, they remained righteous until they died.) And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years from when David's kingdom began until Jesus' kingdom began. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. after Jesus rose from the dead) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. (They spiritually reigned during the Davidic kingdom, and they will continue to spiritually reign in Jesus' kingdom until he returns at his second coming.)

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, (the patriarchs who are listed in Hebrews 11) let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,


The righteous Christians who die also spiritually reign with Jesus, and they will reign with him until his second coming.

2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he will also deny us;

After Jesus' second coming, he will hand over his kingdom to his Father, and then they (Father and Son) will reign over everything forever and ever. Revelation 22:3-5

1 Corinthians 15:21-25 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; 22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 23 But each in his own order: Christ, the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. (evil spirits and evil humans) 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.


There will continue to be antichrists plaguing God's people until Jesus returns at his second coming. He will destroy the last antichrist with his power, just as he destroyed the first one, Nero, with his power in the first century AD.

Acts 14:21 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith: and that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Dan Perez]

One fact from Scripture completely refutes the idea of a pre-rapture. That fact is that the Antichrist will defeat and execute Christians. This fact is stated several times in the Book of Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:21, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 20:4). If Christians are persecuted and killed during the reign of the Antichrist, then there can be no pre-rapture. That would otherwise be a clear contradiction.

Jesus will only return once and that is at the end of the reign of the Antichrist.

I don't know of any church father who believed in a pre-rapture, nor do I know anyone who believed in dispensationalism.

And there are called Classical DISPENSATIONLIST , Acts 9 , DISPENSATIONALIST and called ULRA- DISPENSATIONALIST and DISPENSATION // OIKONOMIA is found in Eph 1:10 and in Eph 3:2 and in 1 Cor 9:17 and in 1 Tim 1:4 where DISPENSATION is translated EDIFYING .

dan p

 

[Dan Perez]

One fact from Scripture completely refutes the idea of a pre-rapture. That fact is that the Antichrist will defeat and execute Christians. This fact is stated several times in the Book of Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:21, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 20:4). If Christians are persecuted and killed during the reign of the Antichrist, then there can be no pre-rapture. That would otherwise be a clear contradiction.

Jesus will only return once and that is at the end of the reign of the Antichrist.

I don't know of any church father who believed in a pre-rapture, nor do I know anyone who believed in dispensationalism.

Many have never heard that there is no Greek word for RAPTURE and the Greek for RAPTURE is PAROUSIA means COMING in 2 Thess 2:1 and CAUGHT AWAY // IS HARPAZO

There is no Greek word for CHURCH ?? EKKLESIA means ASSEMBLY !

There is no Greek word for PURGATORY ?

There NO Greek word for LIMBO !

dan p

 

[Guojing]

The Law and the prophets were the two witnesses. The Books of the Law and the Prophets prophesied Israel's Messiah. When he came, Israel rejected him.

Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”

Luke 19:43-45 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you (Jerusalem), surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation (you rejected me).”

Mark 9:2-4 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them. 4 And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.

Moses represents the Law, and Elijah represents the Prophets.

Were the 2 witnesses beheaded by the antichrist and their bodies displayed on the Earth, aka Revelation 11:7-12?

Or are you going to resort to your "those scripture are not meant to be understood literally" excuse again?

 

[Jan001]

Many have never heard that there is no Greek word for RAPTURE and the Greek for RAPTURE is PAROUSIA means COMING in 2 Thess 2:1 and CAUGHT AWAY // IS HARPAZO

Yes. Different languages use different words. Caught up is rapiemur in Latin.

There is no Greek word for CHURCH ?? EKKLESIA means ASSEMBLY !

In English, we call the ekklesia the church. The church is the assembly of God's people who are on earth and in heaven.

Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly[a] of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

There is no Greek word for PURGATORY ?

καθαρτήριο

There NO Greek word for LIMBO !

dan p

σε αβεβαιότητα

 

[Jan001]

Were the 2 witnesses beheaded by the antichrist and their bodies displayed on the Earth, aka Revelation 11:7-12?

Or are you going to resort to your "those scripture are not meant to be understood literally" excuse again?

It is fact that the Book of Revelation was written in apocalyptic (spiritually symbolic) language.

Revelation 11:7-12 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. 8And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. 11But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. 12And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them. 13And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

The two witnesses were the Law and the Prophets, the moral compass for the Jews and for the world. The Law and the Prophets were killed by the beast (Rome) when biblical Judaism was destroyed forever by the Roman armies in 70 AD. Pagan Rome rejoiced after they destroyed Jerusalem and its temple, the center of Judaism, in 70 AD. The Romans did not know then that the Christians would become the moral compass of the world.

 

[Guojing]

It is fact that the Book of Revelation was written in apocalyptic (spiritually symbolic) language.

Revelation 11:7-12 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. 8And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. 11But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. 12And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them. 13And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

The two witnesses were the Law and the Prophets, the moral compass for the Jews and for the world. The Law and the Prophets were killed by the beast (Rome) when biblical Judaism was destroyed forever by the Roman armies in 70 AD. Pagan Rome rejoiced after they destroyed Jerusalem and its temple, the center of Judaism, in 70 AD. The Romans did not know then that the Christians would become the moral compass of the world.

You earlier said the 2 of them are literally, Moses and Elijah, to fit your Transfiguration scripture.

Then when it suits your purpose, you change them back to the Law and the Prophets, to allow you to also say "they were killed" by Rome in AD 70.

Neither Moses and Elijah ever had their dead bodies displayed on Earth.

You are really happy with the way you interpret scripture like that?

 

[keras]

It is fact that the Book of Revelation was written in apocalyptic (spiritually symbolic) language.

Only an opinion.
One held by many who reject that God will do what He has said He would.

Revelation does have some allegories and symbols. They all can be explained and what is Prophesied can and will take place as The Lord has informed us. It will all commence with the dramatic world changer of the Sixth Seal and end with the Seventh Bowl, the Day of Almighty God. Revelation 16:16-21

 

[Jan001]

You earlier said the 2 of them are literally, Moses and Elijah, to fit your Transfiguration scripture.

Then when it suits your purpose, you change them back to the Law and the Prophets, to allow you to also say "they were killed" by Rome in AD 70.

Neither Moses and Elijah ever had their dead bodies displayed on Earth.

You are really happy with the way you interpret scripture like that?

Moses symbolically represents the Law and Elijah symbolically represents the Prophets. The pagan Romans thought they had killed the worldwide influence of the Law and the Prophets (Judaism) when their armies destroyed the Jews' temple and their holy city.

Moses has already died so he cannot die again. Jude 1:9
Elijah has not died. 2 Kings 2:11 It is possible that God could send him and Enoch back to earth to die in Jerusalem. Genesis 5:24

However, Revelation 11 was fulfilled in 70 AD. All of Revelation except for 20:7 to the end of Revelation 22 were fulfilled by the end of 70 AD.
God can chain and unchain Satan many times according to his purposes.

My interpretation is my opinion just as your interpretation is your opinion.

 

[Jan001]

Only an opinion.
One held by many who reject that God will do what He has said He would.

Revelation does have some allegories and symbols. They all can be explained and what is Prophesied can and will take place as The Lord has informed us. It will all commence with the dramatic world changer of the Sixth Seal and end with the Seventh Bowl, the Day of Almighty God. Revelation 16:16-21

Are you certain as to what is allegory and symbolism and what is not in the Book of Revelation?

 

[Guojing]

The pagan Romans thought they had killed the worldwide influence of the Law and the Prophets (Judaism) when their armies destroyed the Jews' temple and their holy city.

You obviously made this up. There is nothing in history that ever tell us that this was what the Romans actually thought.

If you disagree, please indicate any historian that actually came up with this thinking.

 

[Jan001]

You obviously made this up. There is nothing in history that ever tell us that this was what the Romans actually thought.

If you disagree, please indicate any historian that actually came up with this thinking.

You can do the search and then show me why and how I am wrong.

 

[Diamond7]

Who were the 2 witnesses then?

Enoch and Elijah.

 

[Jan001]

Enoch and Elijah.

If there is to be another fulfillment, I think it will be these two.

 

[Diamond7]

There is nothing in history that ever tell us that this was what the Romans actually thought.

Have you ever studied history? The Arch of Hadrian (Greek: Αψίδα του Αδριανού, romanized: Apsida tou Adrianou), most commonly known in Greek as Hadrian's Gate (Greek: Πύλη του Αδριανού, romanized: Pyli tou Adrianou), is a monumental gateway resembling—in some respects—a Roman triumphal arch

If there is to be another fulfillment, I think it will be these two.

Enoch and Elijah are the only two individuals whom God took to heaven without experiencing physical death.

 

[Jan001]

Enoch and Elijah are the only two individuals whom God took to heaven without experiencing physical death.

I think God still has a plan for them. However, I think the two witnesses in 70 AD were the Law and the Prophets, symbolized as two human witnesses.

 

[Guojing]

Have you ever studied history? The Arch of Hadrian (Greek: Αψίδα του Αδριανού, romanized: Apsida tou Adrianou), most commonly known in Greek as Hadrian's Gate (Greek: Πύλη του Αδριανού, romanized: Pyli tou Adrianou), is a monumental gateway resembling—in some respects—a Roman triumphal arch

Show me any Roman history page that even hinted about "The pagan Romans thought they had killed the worldwide influence of the Law and the Prophets (Judaism) when their armies destroyed the Jews' temple and their holy city."