The Two Beasts and the harlot of Revelation Explained

[Abram's Awakening]

I highly advise you to let go of doctrinal theologies taught by other men. "For how can the blind lead the blind, won't they both fall into a pit?"

Instead, open your heart and your mind and listen to Him...

 

[cgaviria]

Understanding and accepting the "Correct" eschatology is NOT a requirement for Salvation.

False doctrine will indeed prevent you attaining salvation, because if what abides in you is darkness and no light then you will not know how to walk on a straight path, and will thus lead you to perdition,

The manifestation of your words shall give light, and bring understanding to simple ones. (Psalms 119:130 [ABP])

and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. (Matthew 24:11)

I am against these false prophets. Their imaginary dreams are flagrant lies that lead my people into sin. I did not send or appoint them, and they have no message at all for my people. I, the Lord, have spoken! (Jeremiah 23:32)

my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children. (Hosea 4:6)

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. (Acts 4:32)

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. (Acts 2:42)

You must therefore correct false doctrine if you wish to attain eternal life, because if your mind has false doctrine it will prevent you from attaining the full stature of Christ.

 

[parousia70]

False doctrine will indeed prevent you attaining salvation, because if what abides in you is darkness and no light then you will not know how to walk on a straight path, and will thus lead you to perdition,

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. (Acts 2:42)

You must therefore correct false doctrine if you wish to attain eternal life, because if your mind has false doctrine it will prevent you from attaining the full stature of Christ.

Well then, I guess you'd better line your views up the the apostles' doctrine of 1st century eschatological imminence and fulfillment, instead of spiritualizing it away to suit your bias against it.

 

[cgaviria]

First of all scripture never contradicts scripture. So if the scripture says Jerusalem is spiritually Sodom and Egypt, how is it that you are saying its Jerusalem? But even so, lets analyze your points,

Peter wrote his first epistle from Jerusalem in about A.D. 65, calling her "Babylon." Peter was a "pillar" at Jerusalem (Gal. 1:18; 2:9; Acts 15:7). He was the Apostle of the Circumcision (Gal. 2:7-9).

How do you know exactly where Peter was when on the day he wrote this epistle, even assuming that he did wrote it in a day? The epistle doesn't say where he is, nor is it saying which city its referring to as "Bablyon". Its speculative, its hard to know for certain, and if anything there is more popular belief to the contrary, that he was indeed in Rome,

It may be called the established interpretation that the place meant is Rome. We never hear of St. Peter being in the East, and the thing in itself is improbable, whereas nothing but Protestant prejudice can stand against the historical evidence that St. Peter sojourned and died at Rome. Whatever theological consequences may flow from it, it is as certain that St. Peter was at Rome as that St. John was at Ephesus. Everything in the Letter also points to such a state of things as was to be found at Rome about the date when we believe the Letter to have been written. It is objected that St. Peter would not gravely speak of Rome under a fanciful name when dating a letter; but the symbolism in the name is quite in keeping with the context. -Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

You have shown no scripture calling Rome or the Vatican Babylon, In Contrast I have provided myriad of scriptures cementing Jerusalem as Babylon, of which you have employed a grand totoal of ZERO of them to show us why they do not mean what I contend, and thus they stand as un refuted.

I have no scriptures backing up my claims about the harlot being the Vatican? How about this initial content for this thread.... yea, did you not see the scriptures and spiel there? Gimme a break.

BTW,Jerusalem has 7 Hills:
Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption, Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

Its interesting to note that all the references you used to try to prove Jerusalem has 7 mountains are all biased websites trying to prove Jerusalem is the harlot. Here is my unbiased reference, wikipedia, who can give two hoots if Rome is the harlot or not, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills_of_Rome . You're not the first person to insinuate that Jerusalem has 7 mountains, and there in fact many arguments against that, here's one, http://www.bible-history.com/jerusalem/firstcenturyjerusalem_the_land_of_jerusalem.html . But even if we went with it, okay, Jerusalem has seven mountains, but so does Rome. So which one do we pick? Do we pick the city that has already been identified as something else (Sodom and Egypt), or the city that hasn't been identified but still fits the description very well, even better than Jerusalem.

 

[Abram's Awakening]

The Harlot is named as such because she commits adultery against the Lord and His Word. She mixes herself with the nations and their false, pagan, humanistic ways.

Therefore the harlot is Christianity. She was once the bride of the Bridegroom which is Christ...

The mountains are symbolic of the heights of the world among the prophetic times and established kingdoms of whom she committed adultery with...

This is the answer folks. Its that simple...

 

[parousia70]

First of all scripture never contradicts scripture. So if the scripture says Jerusalem is spiritually Sodom and Egypt, how is it that you are saying its Jerusalem? But even so, lets analyze your points,

Jerusalem is Sodom, Egypt & Babylon, according to scripture.

How do you know exactly where Peter was when on the day he wrote this epistle, even assuming that he did wrote it in a day? The epistle doesn't say where he is, nor is it saying which city its referring to as "Bablyon". Its speculative, its hard to know for certain, and if anything there is more popular belief to the contrary, that he was indeed in Rome

Popular Belief?
Scripture please.

You have no scriptural reason to believe Peter wrote that from Rome and every scriptural reason to believe he wrote it from Jerusalem where he, with Silvanus and Mark, lived and ministered (Acts 12:12; 15:22-40). Peter was the minister to the Circumcision.

Peter was not at Rome at the time he wrote his first epistle. He was writing from the Church where Mark and Silvanus were from:

"By Silvanus, ...I have written you. ...The Church in Babylon ...sends you her greeting, and Mark my son." (I Peter 5:12,13)

"Mark" and "Silvanus" lived in Jerusalem (Acts 12:12; 15:22-40). Peter was a "pillar" at Jerusalem (Gal. 1:18; 2:9; Acts 15:7). Peter was the Apostle of the Circumcision (Gal. 2:7-9).

I have no scriptures backing up my claims about the harlot being the Vatican? How about this initial content for this thread.... yea, did you not see the scriptures and spiel there? Gimme a break.

Oh I read your OP, amounted to a whole lot of speculation propped up only by your non scriptural opinions about Rome & The Vatican.

Unlike you, I have actual scripture that calls Jerusalem by all the same names and descriptions as it does MB.

Guess I'll have to post them again, perhaps you did not see them the first time:

MYSTERY BABYLON
Rev. 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets...

JERUSALEM
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee...

Luke 13:33
... for it cannot be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.

That should be enough to settle any debate right there, but of course, there's more...

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:22-23
...and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 25:10-11
Moreover I WILL TAKE FROM THEM the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment;

Show us the scripture that says God will take the Voice of the bridegroom and sounds of millstones from Rome?


MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that GREAT CITY Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

JERUSALEM
Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of THE GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [our Lord died in Jerusalem, of course]


MYSTERY BABYLON -- CLOTHED IN PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Revelation 17:4, 18:16
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication ... And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones...

PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Exodus 28:4-6, 17-20
they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister
unto me in the priest's office. And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. And they shall make the ephod of gold of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with skillful work....And thou shalt taketwo onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel...Exodus 28:17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings...

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 4:30
Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers


MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 3:1
but thou hast played THE HARLOT with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 3:3
and thou hadst a w-hore's forehead...

Ezekiel 16:35-36
Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD: Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy ABOMINATIONS, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

What Scripture can you cite calling Rome or the Vatican a harlot?

Only one city is called a harlot multiple times in scripture.


MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:20
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

JERUSALEM/APOSTATE ISRAEL
Luke 11:47
Woe unto you! ... Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: THAT THE BLOOD OF ALL THE PROPHETS, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, IT SHALL BE REQUIRED of this generation.

The cross references in Holy Scripture are so abundant as to leave us without any doubt who is Mystery Babylon -- JERUSALEM AND APOSTATE ISRAEL.

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Rev 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Pet 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Rev 17:16; Lk.21:20).

Your task is to prove WITH SCRIPTURE that these scriptural cross references I have cited are wrong.

Its interesting to note that all the references you used to try to prove Jerusalem has 7 mountains are all biased websites trying to prove Jerusalem is the harlot. Here is my unbiased reference, wikipedia, who can give two hoots if Rome is the harlot or not

This wiki is much more thorough, citing all the cities on 7 hills:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills
Looks like Seattle is even in the running...

But even if we went with it, okay, Jerusalem has seven mountains, but so does Rome. So which one do we pick? Do we pick the city that has already been identified as something else (Sodom and Egypt), or the city that hasn't been identified but still fits the description very well, even better than Jerusalem.

Why look outside of scripture and rely on speculation and opinion when scripture alone gives every reference we need?

Scripturally, no other city fits the description of MB better than Jerusalem, as I have demonstrated above.

 

[Abram's Awakening]

Every statement I provide is from scripture. It is my only source... Every bit of knowledge, wisdom, and understanding that I possess comes from the Word-refined by the Spirit...

 

[Berean777]

Jerusalem is Sodom, Egypt & Babylon, according to scripture.



Popular Belief?
Scripture please.

You have no scriptural reason to believe Peter wrote that from Rome and every scriptural reason to believe he wrote it from Jerusalem where he, with Silvanus and Mark, lived and ministered (Acts 12:12; 15:22-40). Peter was the minister to the Circumcision.

Peter was not at Rome at the time he wrote his first epistle. He was writing from the Church where Mark and Silvanus were from:

"By Silvanus, ...I have written you. ...The Church in Babylon ...sends you her greeting, and Mark my son." (I Peter 5:12,13)

"Mark" and "Silvanus" lived in Jerusalem (Acts 12:12; 15:22-40). Peter was a "pillar" at Jerusalem (Gal. 1:18; 2:9; Acts 15:7). Peter was the Apostle of the Circumcision (Gal. 2:7-9).



Oh I read your OP, amounted to a whole lot of speculation propped up only by your non scriptural opinions about Rome & The Vatican.

Unlike you, I have actual scripture that calls Jerusalem by all the same names and descriptions as it does MB.

Guess I'll have to post them again, perhaps you did not see them the first time:

MYSTERY BABYLON
Rev. 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets...

JERUSALEM
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee...

Luke 13:33
... for it cannot be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.

That should be enough to settle any debate right there, but of course, there's more...

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:22-23
...and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 25:10-11
Moreover I WILL TAKE FROM THEM the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment;

Show us the scripture that says God will take the Voice of the bridegroom and sounds of millstones from Rome?


MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that GREAT CITY Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

JERUSALEM
Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of THE GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [our Lord died in Jerusalem, of course]


MYSTERY BABYLON -- CLOTHED IN PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Revelation 17:4, 18:16
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication ... And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones...

PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Exodus 28:4-6, 17-20
they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister
unto me in the priest's office. And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. And they shall make the ephod of gold of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with skillful work....And thou shalt taketwo onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel...Exodus 28:17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings...

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 4:30
Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers


MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 3:1
but thou hast played THE HARLOT with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 3:3
and thou hadst a w-hore's forehead...

Ezekiel 16:35-36
Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD: Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy ABOMINATIONS, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

What Scripture can you cite calling Rome or the Vatican a harlot?

Only one city is called a harlot multiple times in scripture.


MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:20
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

JERUSALEM/APOSTATE ISRAEL
Luke 11:47
Woe unto you! ... Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: THAT THE BLOOD OF ALL THE PROPHETS, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, IT SHALL BE REQUIRED of this generation.

The cross references in Holy Scripture are so abundant as to leave us without any doubt who is Mystery Babylon -- JERUSALEM AND APOSTATE ISRAEL.

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Rev 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Pet 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Rev 17:16; Lk.21:20).

Your task is to prove WITH SCRIPTURE that these scriptural cross references I have cited are wrong.


This wiki is much more thorough, citing all the cities on 7 hills:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills
Looks like Seattle is even in the running...

Why look outside of scripture and rely on speculation and opinion when scripture alone gives every reference we need?

Scripturally, no other city fits the description of MB better than Jerusalem, as I have demonstrated above.

Mystery Babylon is not the Pharisical false prophet religious system of the 1st century. There is a distinction been made between what John already knows about the 1st beast and false religious prophet/system and the mysterious second lamb/Christ like beast that the mother of harlots (Mystery Babylon) rides.

The word to note is Mystery, that is where John was shown to be unfamiliar with this entity, nor had he seen this entity in his days, so what happens is....

"the angel carried John away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns."

Firstly, this is indicative that the women is not local to the middle eastern region, because wilderness points to a place afar, away from the cradle of civilization, the symbol of the Sea, especially it was a place far from the most Holy shrine to the Jews, that was the temple in Jerusalem.

Secondly, the second lamb/Christ like beast and the mother harlot that rode him was a total mystery, meaning it was totally unbeknown to John a Jew who grew up amongst the Jews in Jerusalem. Scripture required the angel on two occassions to prompt John, as he was totally dumb founded as to the identity of this evil duo.

So what does scripture state......

"When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns."

Had John known that this particular beast was Jerusalem and the mother harlot tge pharisical religious system, then he would not be surprised, nor would it require the angel explaining the beast and the harlot to him in the first place. It goes to reason that this is a completely different entity to that of the 1st beast and false pharisical religious prophet/system of John's days.

This extrapolation of the text points to an entity in the future far past the destruction of the 1st beast and false prophet/system in 70AD.

Thirdly, this women is said to be a harlot, so this means she used to be once legitimately married to God and his Christ, but her fornications with the second beast that had two horns, that symbolise a geopolitical and religious system that covered the known world.
As a final deductive study, the women is said to have daughters, hence she is called the mother harlot. The 1st century pharisical system had no daughters, rather it was a unified religious sysyem centred around the temple worship at Jerusalem. What is revealing is that the daughters of the prostitute are not necessarily apostate, but may infact hold to the mother's original faith in Christ before she was cutoff by Christ and declared a whorish mother. Historically if we look at Rome, we see that out of Rome came forth many daughters, Albeit not in her footsteps. This squarely points to the 11th century Great Schism to tge 16th century Reformation.

In conclusion spiritual Sodom and Gomorrah is symbolic of the mother harlot who was instrumental in persecuting the bidy of Christ across 1100 years during the crusades and the inquisitions, where this Christ/lamb like entity followed in the footsteps of the false pharisical religious prophet/system of the 1st century. That is why John infers that she resurrects the image of the 1st beast and to make all to worship it and the number of this entity originates from man as it is thrice declared by the number 6 which is the (definite article) number of man, that is, man was created on the 6th day.

 

[cgaviria]

Jerusalem is Sodom, Egypt & Babylon, according to scripture.



Popular Belief?
Scripture please.

You have no scriptural reason to believe Peter wrote that from Rome and every scriptural reason to believe he wrote it from Jerusalem where he, with Silvanus and Mark, lived and ministered (Acts 12:12; 15:22-40). Peter was the minister to the Circumcision.

Peter was not at Rome at the time he wrote his first epistle. He was writing from the Church where Mark and Silvanus were from:

"By Silvanus, ...I have written you. ...The Church in Babylon ...sends you her greeting, and Mark my son." (I Peter 5:12,13)

"Mark" and "Silvanus" lived in Jerusalem (Acts 12:12; 15:22-40). Peter was a "pillar" at Jerusalem (Gal. 1:18; 2:9; Acts 15:7). Peter was the Apostle of the Circumcision (Gal. 2:7-9).



Oh I read your OP, amounted to a whole lot of speculation propped up only by your non scriptural opinions about Rome & The Vatican.

Unlike you, I have actual scripture that calls Jerusalem by all the same names and descriptions as it does MB.

Guess I'll have to post them again, perhaps you did not see them the first time:

MYSTERY BABYLON
Rev. 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets...

JERUSALEM
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee...

Luke 13:33
... for it cannot be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.

That should be enough to settle any debate right there, but of course, there's more...

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:22-23
...and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 25:10-11
Moreover I WILL TAKE FROM THEM the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment;

Show us the scripture that says God will take the Voice of the bridegroom and sounds of millstones from Rome?


MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that GREAT CITY Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

JERUSALEM
Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of THE GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [our Lord died in Jerusalem, of course]


MYSTERY BABYLON -- CLOTHED IN PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Revelation 17:4, 18:16
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication ... And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones...

PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Exodus 28:4-6, 17-20
they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister
unto me in the priest's office. And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. And they shall make the ephod of gold of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with skillful work....And thou shalt taketwo onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel...Exodus 28:17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings...

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 4:30
Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers


MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 3:1
but thou hast played THE HARLOT with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 3:3
and thou hadst a w-hore's forehead...

Ezekiel 16:35-36
Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD: Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy ABOMINATIONS, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

What Scripture can you cite calling Rome or the Vatican a harlot?

Only one city is called a harlot multiple times in scripture.


MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:20
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

JERUSALEM/APOSTATE ISRAEL
Luke 11:47
Woe unto you! ... Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: THAT THE BLOOD OF ALL THE PROPHETS, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, IT SHALL BE REQUIRED of this generation.

The cross references in Holy Scripture are so abundant as to leave us without any doubt who is Mystery Babylon -- JERUSALEM AND APOSTATE ISRAEL.

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Rev 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Pet 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Rev 17:16; Lk.21:20).

Your task is to prove WITH SCRIPTURE that these scriptural cross references I have cited are wrong.


This wiki is much more thorough, citing all the cities on 7 hills:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills
Looks like Seattle is even in the running...

Why look outside of scripture and rely on speculation and opinion when scripture alone gives every reference we need?

Scripturally, no other city fits the description of MB better than Jerusalem, as I have demonstrated above.

You're not incorrect in saying that Jerusalem was guilty in the killing of the prophets, but they are not the only ones that have martyred the saints. Notice this,

that should be required, the blood of all the prophets being poured out from the founding of the world, of this generation. (Luke 11:50 [ABP])

Which generation? The generation alive at the time of Jesus. And which prophets?

From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, the one perishing between the altar and the house. Yes, I say to you, it will be required of this generation. (Luke 11:51 [ABP])

And how was it required of that generation? With the destruction of Jerusalem,

[1] And coming forth, Jesus went from the temple. And his disciples came forward to display to him the constructions of the temple. [2] And Jesus said to them, Do you see all these things? Amen I say to you, In no way shall there be left here a stone upon a stone, which in any way shall be resting.
(Matthew 24:1-2 [ABP])

The killing of the prophets from Abel down to Zacharias is indeed required of Jerusalem, however, its requirement was already exacted by its desolation that came with the fulfillment of its destruction of the city and its temple not long after Jesus Christ died. It is already fulfilled. However, there have been more martyrs since Zacharias and not at the hands of Jerusalem, but at the hands of the Romans, as the Romans also persecuted the saints, and also killed saints in very brutal ways, and they even had their hand in the killing of Jesus Christ, as the order to crucify ultimately came from the Romans. Their requirement has not yet been exacted, as the requirement of the blood of these saints is exacted on the harlot, who is said to be destroyed by the ten who give their authority to the beast, and the beast is said to be present at the coming of Jesus, so it stands to reason already that the destruction of the harlot is not the destruction of Jerusalem, but a much later event on an entirely different city, and even in the vision of Daniel, we see that after said destruction of Jerusalem, comes ten horns and a "little horn", so already the ten horns and little horns are already separate things than Jerusalem, and that little horn is said to persecute the saints for 1,260 years, which coincides with the beast of the sea persecuting the saints for 1,260 years, and then the harlot is said to ride this beast, again, separate entity than Jerusalem because Jerusalem does not "ride" anything that is or came forth from the Roman empire, it was in fact destroyed and even now it still does not ride any formation in Europe. So by mere logic of these things is Jerusalem not the harlot, neither is it the beast, it is in fact Sodom & Egypt spiritually, and Babylon is Rome to whom is also the guilt of the blood of saints.

Also, going on the topic of Peter, you are presuming things about that scripture. There is nothing there that says, Jerusalem is Babylon, you are merely presuming that and making it seem like it is. Lets look at your verse,

[12] Through Silvanus, the trustworthy brother to you, as I consider, a little I wrote, appealing and attesting this to be the true favor of God in which you stand. [13] She chosen with you in Babylon greets you, and Mark my son. [14] Greet one another with a kiss of love! Peace to you, to all the ones in Christ Jesus. Amen.
(I Peter 5:12-14 [ABP])

This scripture is indicating that whoever those "chosen" are in "Babylon", they greet those "chosen as well" to whom this epistle in written to. Who is this epistle written to?

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the chosen immigrants of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (I Peter 1:1 [ABP])

Could it be referring to Rome as well if we were to presume things from just reading this? Absolutely, and I believe it to be referring to Rome because I have understanding of who Babylon is spiritually based on the visions in the Book of Revelation.

By you pointing Jerusalem to the harlot of Babylon, you are in fact ignoring over 2,000 years of history of what Rome has done. Over 2,000 years. Let me repeat that, over 2,000 years. Again, over 2,000 years. Common man, don't be foolish.

 

[parousia70]

You're not incorrect in saying that Jerusalem was guilty in the killing of the prophets, but they are not the only ones that have martyred the saints. Notice this,

that should be required, the blood of all the prophets being poured out from the founding of the world, of this generation. (Luke 11:50 [ABP])

Which generation? The generation alive at the time of Jesus.

34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

And which prophets?

From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, the one perishing between the altar and the house. Yes, I say to you, it will be required of this generation. (Luke 11:51 [ABP])

And how was it required of that generation? With the destruction of Jerusalem,

[1] And coming forth, Jesus went from the temple. And his disciples came forward to display to him the constructions of the temple. [2] And Jesus said to them, Do you see all these things? Amen I say to you, In no way shall there be left here a stone upon a stone, which in any way shall be resting.
(Matthew 24:1-2 [ABP])

The killing of the prophets from Abel down to Zacharias is indeed required of Jerusalem, however, its requirement was already exacted by its desolation that came with the fulfillment of its destruction of the city and its temple not long after Jesus Christ died. It is already fulfilled.

Amen.
Matt 24:34
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Also, going on the topic of Peter, you are presuming things about that scripture.

Could it be referring to Rome as well if we were to presume things from just reading this? Absolutely, and I believe it to be referring to Rome because I have understanding of who Babylon is spiritually based on the visions in the Book of Revelation.

I'm presuming things and you lead your "proof" with "could it be...?"?

Stone in glass houses much?

Again, I'll stick with the as yet un refuted scriptures I have already laid out that cement MB to apostate Jerusalem of the 1st Century.

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Rev 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Pet 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Rev 17:16; Lk.21:20).

Earthly Jerusalem, by Divine right and calling, was the preeminent city among all nations. The Hebrew/Biblical understanding of Jerusalem is that she is the "Chief of the nations" (Jeremiah 31:7; Ez 5:5), the Queen city of the earth (Lam 1:1/Rev 18:7). She, by Divine right and covenant, was appointed as the head of all nations (Deut 26:19; Deut 15:6; Deut 28:1,10-13), and the gentile kings recognized God's dwelling was at Jerusalem with the Hebrews (1 Ki 10:24; Luke 11:31; Ezra 1:2; Dan 2:47, 3:28-29, 4:1-3, 4:17, 4:34-37; Ezra 1; Ezra 4-7; Ezra 7:15,23).

The Governor of all nations (Ps. 22:28) lived in Jerusalem in his House (Ez 7:15,23), and all the kingdom, power and might over earth was His (1 Chron 29:11-12). Indeed, all kings receive their power to rule from that Divine King (Rom 13:1-2,6; John 19:11; 1 Pet 2:13-14,17; Ez 1:2; Dan 1:1-2; Dan 2:20-21; Dan 2:37-38; Dan 2:47, Dan 3:28-29; Dan 4:1-3,17,34-37.).

Yet, Jerusalem was also famous for becoming The Harlot City -- an unfaithful spouse to her King (Isa 1:21; Jer 3:6-10; Ez 16:37-39). She had become "drunk with the blood of the saints" (Rev 17:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16) as Christ had prophesied she would (Mt 23:33-37; Lk 11:50-51).

Sadly, the "great city," Jerusalem (Rev 11:8), had fallen, and had become the habitation of demons and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (Rev 18:2). The Queen City Jerusalem (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1), which had been great among the nations (Lam 1:1), had become a widow (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1). And She, having become an unfaithful Harlot to God, was thus "burned with fire" (Rev 18:8/17:16) as her covenant law demanded for her (Lev 21:9). The blood of all the apostles and prophets who she famously killed (Matt 23:33-36; Matt 21:34-39; Lk 13:33; Acts 7:52; 1 Thess 2:15-16; Lk 11:47; Neh 9:26; 1 Ki 19:14) was avenged upon her (Matt 23:33-37; Rev 16:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16).

 

[cgaviria]

Amen.
Matt 24:34
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.



I'm presuming things and you lead your "proof" with "could it be...?"?

Stone in glass houses much?

Again, I'll stick with the as yet un refuted scriptures I have already laid out that cement MB to apostate Jerusalem of the 1st Century.

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Rev 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Pet 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Rev 17:16; Lk.21:20).

Earthly Jerusalem, by Divine right and calling, was the preeminent city among all nations. The Hebrew/Biblical understanding of Jerusalem is that she is the "Chief of the nations" (Jeremiah 31:7; Ez 5:5), the Queen city of the earth (Lam 1:1/Rev 18:7). She, by Divine right and covenant, was appointed as the head of all nations (Deut 26:19; Deut 15:6; Deut 28:1,10-13), and the gentile kings recognized God's dwelling was at Jerusalem with the Hebrews (1 Ki 10:24; Luke 11:31; Ezra 1:2; Dan 2:47, 3:28-29, 4:1-3, 4:17, 4:34-37; Ezra 1; Ezra 4-7; Ezra 7:15,23).

The Governor of all nations (Ps. 22:28) lived in Jerusalem in his House (Ez 7:15,23), and all the kingdom, power and might over earth was His (1 Chron 29:11-12). Indeed, all kings receive their power to rule from that Divine King (Rom 13:1-2,6; John 19:11; 1 Pet 2:13-14,17; Ez 1:2; Dan 1:1-2; Dan 2:20-21; Dan 2:37-38; Dan 2:47, Dan 3:28-29; Dan 4:1-3,17,34-37.).

Yet, Jerusalem was also famous for becoming The Harlot City -- an unfaithful spouse to her King (Isa 1:21; Jer 3:6-10; Ez 16:37-39). She had become "drunk with the blood of the saints" (Rev 17:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16) as Christ had prophesied she would (Mt 23:33-37; Lk 11:50-51).

Sadly, the "great city," Jerusalem (Rev 11:8), had fallen, and had become the habitation of demons and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (Rev 18:2). The Queen City Jerusalem (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1), which had been great among the nations (Lam 1:1), had become a widow (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1). And She, having become an unfaithful Harlot to God, was thus "burned with fire" (Rev 18:8/17:16) as her covenant law demanded for her (Lev 21:9). The blood of all the apostles and prophets who she famously killed (Matt 23:33-36; Matt 21:34-39; Lk 13:33; Acts 7:52; 1 Thess 2:15-16; Lk 11:47; Neh 9:26; 1 Ki 19:14) was avenged upon her (Matt 23:33-37; Rev 16:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16).

You haven't laid out any cement. But if lets say we went along with "your" story, and how you went along and correlated literal things the priests wore with figurative things the harlot wears.... explain then these things to me:

1. Who then is the beast of the sea?
2. Where is the 42 month prophecy of the beast of the sea killing the saints fulfilled?
3. Who are the ten horns of the beast?
4. Who are the seven heads of the beast?
5. Who is the harlot and how does she relate to both these beasts?
6. What is conveyed in the harlot riding this beast?
7. Who is the 8th and final head of the beast?
8. Who is the beast of the earth?
9. What is the image of the beast this beast of the earth causes men to make?
10. What is the mark of the beast the beast of the earth implements?

 

[cgaviria]

I have made edits to this original thread for anyone wishing to reread.

 

[parousia70]

You haven't laid out any cement. But if lets say we went along with "your" story, and how you went along and correlated literal things the priests wore with figurative things the harlot wears.... explain then these things to me:

1. Who then is the beast of the sea?
2. Where is the 42 month prophecy of the beast of the sea killing the saints fulfilled?
3. Who are the ten horns of the beast?
4. Who are the seven heads of the beast?
5. Who is the harlot and how does she relate to both these beasts?
6. What is conveyed in the harlot riding this beast?
7. Who is the 8th and final head of the beast?
8. Who is the beast of the earth?
9. What is the image of the beast this beast of the earth causes men to make?
10. What is the mark of the beast the beast of the earth implements?

Hold on a minute friend.....

This is not an interrogation where you get to avoid answering my questions while demanding I answer a flurry of yours.

First you Tell me about Matt 24:34.

You said that "this generation" in Luke 11:50 was "the Generation alive at the time of Jesus"

Do you believe the same about "this Generation" in Matt 24:34?


But before you answer, as a gesture of good faith, I'll go ahead and start chipping away at your interrogation list:

1)1st century Roman Empire
2)AD 66-70, the 42 month Length of the Roman Jewish War

For the remaining 8 points, please reference chapter and verse that you believe support the premise of each question.

 

[Berean777]

First of all Peter's epistle is not pointing to Rome.

Read it again........

1 Peter 5:12-14
12By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand. 13The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son. 14Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.

Firstly Peter preaches to his Semitic brothers and sisters who still remained in Babylon Iraq after their captivity, that is......

Babylon was the most heavily occupied Jewish city in the world from about 400 B.C. till the 10th century A.D. Only a remnant returned to Judea. What better place for the apostle Peter to go to preach to the lost sheep of Israel than in Babylon?

There is enough archeological evidence to prove that Babylon was still inhabited until 2nd century AD

Read the book "Late Achaemenid and Hellenistic Babylon" by T. BOIY, page 188

Here is the link of that book.
http://books.google.com.ph/books?id=1frplXFGf4sC&pg=PA188&lpg=PA188&dq=babylon+inhabited+first+century&source=bl&ots=Tmxo_S7mCD&sig=OyQ5LkLA0oCWa7ycJkQB9JoWxWA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1IZRUZ66AonriAeu1IGwDA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=babylon inhabited first century&f=false

Therefore 1 Peter 5:13 talks about literal Babylon. Not Rome

I would sincerely state that both of you brothers are wrong. It is not Jerusalem and neither is it Rome.

The most important thing to note accordign to Peter's epistles is this........

This is the most popular proof text used by Roman Catholics to establish that the apostle Peter was writing from his residence at Rome. For example, the Catholic Encyclopedia states, “St. Peter's First Epistle was written almost undoubtedly from Rome…"Catholic Answers states, “Babylon is a code-word for Rome." Well, is there a Biblical basis for this interpretation? Is there an infallible “Tradition” that supplies this information about Peter’s use of “code words”? Below are some voices not normally heard by Roman Catholics.

Albert Barnes
From this it is clear that it was written at Babylon, but still there has been no little difference of opinion as to what place is meant here by Babylon… the apostles, when they sent an epistle to the churches, and mentioned a place as the one where the Epistle was written, were accustomed to mention the real place… It would be hardly consistent with the dignity of an apostle, or any grave writer, to make use of what would be regarded as a nickname, when suggesting the name of a place where he then was… If Rome had been meant, it would have been hardly respectful to the church there which sent the salutation - “The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you” - to have given it this name. Peter mentions the church with respect and kindness; and yet it would have been scarcely regarded as kind to mention it as a “Church in Babylon,” if he used the term Babylon, as he must have done on such a supposition, to denote a place of eminent depravity…) The testimony of the Fathers on this subject does not demonstrate that Rome was the place intended…[T]hey do not give this as historical testimony, but as their own interpretation; and, from anything that appears, we are as well qualified to interpret the word as they were.” [Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible, introductory comments on 1 Peter]

And another voice....

Believer’s Bible Commentary
“It is impossible to state with certainty who or what is meant by ‘She who is in Babylon, elect together with you.’”[ (MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible Commentary : Old and New Testaments (electronic ed.) (1 Pe 5:13 ). Nashville: Thomas Nelson]

There is no evidence that Rome was ever called Babylon until after the writing of the Book of Revelation in a.d. 90–96, many years after Peter’s death”- [Believer’s Bible Commentary, Electronic Edition 1991 by the Criswell Center for Biblical Studies, Note on 1 Peter 5:13 ].

This is the main hiccup that many who erroneously try and equate Rome with Babylon intended in Peter's epistles. The fact is that the Mystery (unknown to the apostle) Babylon could not have been the Ancient Babylon in Peter's epistles, especially after he espouses it such a high blessing and regard. Rome at the time of Peter's epistle was an enemy of Christainity and would not hold such a high regard and respect as many of Rome who claim Peter's succession would have you to believe.

Believer’s Study Bible
“Peter is probably alluding to the Babylon on the Euphrates, a part of that Eastern world where he lived and did his work, rather than Rome (with Babylon being utilized as a cryptic word). Evidence for this position includes the following: (1) There is no evidence that Rome was ever called Babylon until after the writing of the Book of Revelation in a.d. 90–96, many years after Peter’s death. (2) Peter’s method and manner of writing are not apocalyptic. On the contrary, Peter is a man plain of speech, almost blunt, who would not interject such a mystical allusion into his personal explanations and final salutation. (3) Babylon is no more cryptic than Pontus, Asia, or the other places mentioned when Peter says the elect in Babylon send greetings to the Jews of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. (4) Babylon, no longer a great world capital in the time of Peter, was still inhabited by a colony of people, mostly Jews, many of whom Peter befriended and won to Christ. (5) A study of the chronology of Peter’s travels argues for Babylon to be the Babylon on the Euphrates.

Further more the language that Peter used is vastly different to John's. Peter was a straight shooter, as John in Revelation was symbolic and cryptic. The Babylon mentioned in Peter's epistles is not the mysterious Babylon mentioned in Revelation of John.

Lorraine Boettner
“…Paul's work was primarily among the Gentiles, while Peter's was primarily among the Jews. Peter ministered to the Jews who were in exile in Asia Minor, "to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia" (I Peter 1:1 ), and in his journeys he went as far east as Babylon, from which city his first epistle (and probably his second) was addressed to the Jewish Christians in Asia Minor—She that is in Babylon, elect together with you, saluteth you” (1 Peter 5:13 ). As most of Paul’s letters were addressed to churches he had evangelized, so Peter wrote to the Jewish brethren that he had evangelized, who were scattered through those provinces. While there is no Scriptural evidence at all that Peter went west to Rome, here is a plain statement of Scripture that he did go east to Babylon. Why cannot the Roman Church take Peter’s word to that effect? But his testimony, of course, must be circumvented by those who are so anxious to place him in Rome, and they take a curious way to do it. The Confraternity edition has an introductory note to I Peter which reads: "The place of composition is given as 'Babylon'...a cryptic designation of the city of Rome."

But there is no good reason for saying that "Babylon" means "Rome." The reason alleged by the Church of Rome for understanding Babylon to mean Rome is that in the book of Revelation Rome is called by that name (Rev. 17:5 ; 18:2 ). But there is a great difference between an apocalyptic book such as the book of Revelation, which for the most part is written in figurative and symbolic language, and an epistle such as this which is written in a straightforward, matter of fact style. In regard to Peter's assignment to work among the Jews, it is known that there were many Jews in Babylon in New Testament times. Many had not returned to Palestine after the Exile. Many others, such as those in Asia Minor and Egypt, had been driven out or had left Palestine for various reasons. Josephus says that some "gave Hyrcanus, the high priest, a habitation at Babylon, where there were Jews in great numbers" (Antiquities, Book XV, Ch. II, 2). Peter's assigned ministry to the Jews took him to those places where the Jews were in the greatest numbers, even to Babylon. (Roman Catholicism, 120)

I go one step further than the voices mentioned, in that Peter was well aware of Old Testament prophesy that the highway mentioned in......

Isaiah 19:22-25
23In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: 25Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance

Peter knew that to save his Jewish people, he needed to comply with the formulea which included the Assyrian people's in Babylon Iraq and so he endeavoured to setup the Assyrian church of the East in Babylon in the hope to fulfilling prophesy and at the same time be a blessing to his Jewish people to be the third, meaning joining part onto the handy work of God the Assyrians. This highway was setup by Peter through the Church of the East located in Iraq.

Here are their successions........

According to Church legend, the Apostleship of Edessa (Chaldea) is alleged to have been founded by Shimun Keepa (Saint Peter) (33–64),[7] Thoma Shlikha, (Saint Thomas),[8] Tulmay (St. Bartholomew the Apostle) [8] and of course Mar Addai, (St. Thaddeus) of the Seventy disciples. Saint Thaddeus was martyred c.66 AD.

Edessa era

• 1 Mar Aggai (c.66-81). First successor to the Apostleship of his spiritual director the Apostle Saint Thaddeus, one of the Seventy disciples. He in turn was the spiritual director of Mar Mari.
• 2 Palut of Edessa (c.81-87) renamed Mar Mari (c.87 – c.121). Second successor to the Apostleship of Mar Addai of the Seventy disciples. During his days a bishopric was formally established at Seleucia-Ctesiphon.
• 3 Abris (Abres or Ahrasius) (121–148 AD) Judah Kyriakos relocates Jerusalem Church to Edessa in 136 AD
• 4 Abraham (Abraham I of Kashker) (148–171 AD)
• 5 Yaʿqob I (Mar Yacob I) (c. 172–190 AD)
• 6 Ebid M’shikha (191–203)[8]
• 7 Ahadabui (Ahha d'Aboui) (204–220 AD) - First bishop of the East to get statikon as Catholicos. Ordained in 231 AD in Jerusalem Council.
• 8 Shahaloopa of Kashker (Shahlufa) (220–266 AD)
  • Bar Aggai (267–c. 280)

The first church located in Edessa Iraq and from the Jewish virtual library.....

EDESSA
EDESSA, a city in the upper Euphrates Valley (today Urfa in Turkey). Archaeological remains are known in the area of the city going back to the second millennium B.C.E., and Edessa may very well have been a Hurrian city alternatively known as Orrhoe, Orhai, or Osrhoene. Until 11 C.E. Edessa was part of the border area that passed on various occasions from Parthian to Roman hands. The city was conquered in August 116 by Lusius Quietus, and remained a Roman possession until 216, when it was officially incorporated into the Roman Empire. The suppression of the Parthian resistance against the Romans meant also the subjugation of the Jews of the city (see Segal). By the end of the second century C.E. Edessa had become the center of Christianity beyond the Euphrates, and this development suggests a Jewish influence in the area during that period. It is known, for instance, that the local king during the early second century, Abgar VII, was a son of *Izates of Adiabene, a monarchy already converted to Judaism. Eusebius, a primary source regarding the establishment of Christianity in Edessa, relates that Abgar V had corresponded with Jesus himself, and as a result immediately accepted the teachings of the first Christian disciple to arrive at Edessa, the preacher Addai. The story is also given in the "Doctrine of Addai," which claims that the conversion involved, among others, Jewish silk merchants. The story is a Christian invention. The Palestinian Targum identifies the Erech of Genesis 10:10 with Edessa and refers to it, together with Ctesiphon and Nisibis, as one of the three Babylonian cities ruled by *Nimrod. In the Talmud the name of the community is Hadass.

 

[Berean777]

Look again at my post #174 and study it in detail. Notice I have included many sources across the board who are not only Christian, but also Jewish and also have held back many more. If archeology and the Jewish virtual library points to the founding father of Christianity and in succession to Peter, in which the Jewish library states to be the first Christian preacher Mar Addai who is the Patriarch of the Assyrian church of the East and that the Jews document that he was responsible for the conversion of many Jewish silk merchants, who operated from Babylon, Iraq, then Rome during that time, several decades and before the fall of Jerusalem, cannot have been Babylon that Peter was sending his blessings to.

Here are further sources......

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0006_0_05555.html

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com.au/2006/08/babylonrome-some-opinions-on-1-peter.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Patriarchs_of_the_Church_of_the_East

 

[parousia70]

Look again at my post #174 and study it in detail. Notice I have included many sources across the board who are not only Christian, but also Jewish and also have held back many more.

Peter was writing from the Church where Mark and Silvanus were from:

"By Silvanus, ...I have written you. ...The Church in Babylon ...sends you her greeting, and Mark my son." (I Peter 5:12,13)

"Mark" and "Silvanus" lived in Jerusalem (Acts 12:12; 15:22-40). Peter was a "pillar" at Jerusalem (Gal. 1:18; 2:9; Acts 15:7). Peter was the Apostle of the Circumcision (Gal. 2:7-9).

 

[Berean777]

So Peter was pointing to Babylon in Iraq during the Edessa Christian church era which was almost 35 years before 70AD and some 65-70 years before the Revelation of John was written.

 

[Berean777]

Peter was writing from the Church where Mark and Silvanus were from:

"By Silvanus, ...I have written you. ...The Church in Babylon ...sends you her greeting, and Mark my son." (I Peter 5:12,13)

"Mark" and "Silvanus" lived in Jerusalem (Acts 12:12; 15:22-40). Peter was a "pillar" at Jerusalem (Gal. 1:18; 2:9; Acts 15:7). Peter was the Apostle of the Circumcision (Gal. 2:7-9).

The way that you read the text grammatically is incorrect, because the reasoning and archeological and historical evidence by other none Christian sources points date wise and locality wise to a place where Peter makes the following statement.....

The church in Babylon, together elected with whom?

To be elected together, means that there is the church in Jerusalem which is made up of the founding Jewish apostles and as a joining member the other church in Babylon who is together as another separate enterprise also elected alongside the church in Jerusalem.

The grammar fits and Peter is highlighting two church bodies, the one in Jerusalem that is the founding church established by the apostles and the church in Babylon that is also elected alongside of her. Obviously Peter is speaking of two churchs and localities and not just one.

 

[parousia70]

So Peter was pointing to Babylon in Iraq during the Edessa Christian church era which was almost 35 years before 70AD and some 65-70 years before the Revelation of John was written.

Revelation was written before 70AD, And Peter was writing from the HOME of Mark and Silvanus

 

[cgaviria]

Hold on a minute friend.....

This is not an interrogation where you get to avoid answering my questions while demanding I answer a flurry of yours.

First you Tell me about Matt 24:34.

You said that "this generation" in Luke 11:50 was "the Generation alive at the time of Jesus"

Do you believe the same about "this Generation" in Matt 24:34?


But before you answer, as a gesture of good faith, I'll go ahead and start chipping away at your interrogation list:

1)1st century Roman Empire
2)AD 66-70, the 42 month Length of the Roman Jewish War

For the remaining 8 points, please reference chapter and verse that you believe support the premise of each question.

The generation in Matthew 24:34 is referring to the generation alive to experience those things described preceding that verse,

And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in the heaven. And then all the tribes of the earth shall beat their chest. And they shall see the son of man coming upon the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30 [ABP])

All the things described by Jesus will all be experienced by that same generation that exists to be alive for it. Before his coming he was describing great distress, and fearful signs in the heavens.

So if you do agree that the beast of the sea is the first century Roman empire, then how do you figure that Jerusalem rides the Roman empire? The beast that the harlot is riding further on in Revelation is the same beast of the sea having the seven heads and ten horns.

Second, that 42 month prophecy is not literally 42 months. How do we know this? Because the 42 month prophecy pertains to this prophecy,

and words against the highest he shall speak, and the holy ones of the highest he shall mislead, and shall be of the opinion to change times and law. And it shall be granted in his hand until a time and times and half a time. (Daniel 7:25 [ABP])

The "time and times and half a time" means "a time, plus doubletime, plus a 1/2 time", or 3 1/2, or 3 1/2 prophetic years, or 42 prophetic months. So these two prophecies are correlating concerning the 42 months. And we know that a prophetic day is equal to a literal year because of the 70 weeks prophecy from the time to rebuild Jerusalem to the time of Jesus was 490 literal years,

[24]Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. [25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
(Daniel 9:24-25 [KJV])

So therefore, the span of time pertaining to the 42 months is 1,260 literal years, not literally 42 months just as the Daniel vision of the 70 weeks was not literally 70 weeks.

So again, your interpretation just does not fit with the reality of things and other scriptures. When I tell you that you are putting a blindfold on concerning the Vatican, I seriously mean it. You are choosing to ignore what it has done for way over a thousand years.