The Sabbath is grace.

[Gary K]

Then in Matt 5 Jesus is lying. He said He came to fulfill the prophecies concerning His coming and fulfill the Law. Since you don't believe Jesus removed the barrier, the Law, as stated in Eph 2:15 then you should also believe not even one jot or tittle of the entire law has been removed. Have you read all of the laws and what they entailed?

Have you read Jesus words in Jn 6:24 where those who believe in Him will not even be judged. 1Jn 3:19-24 tells us that we belong to the truth if we believe and love others as He taught us. It says nothing about keeping the defunct old covenant Law. Where did you get the information you are spreading? Certainly not from the Apostle Paul.

Those who have not followed Christ wil face some kind of judgment, but as to whether they will be lost is not our call.

Thank you Jesus for bearing my sins.. Thank You for removing the barrier that kept Gentiles and Jews apart. Now we all can come to the throne and become sinless through His blood.

The old covenant Laws have been removed from the Jews as Jesus stated. Gentiles were never under them. I repeat Gentiles were never under Torah law. Tell me something. When did God put Gentiles under obligation to keep the Sabbath.?

When did God obligate Gentiles to keep any of the ceremonial laws that Jews were under. He allowed them to be circumcised and partake of the rituals, But when did He obligate them?

Oh is that right? Were they not God's special people. Didn't that make them "exclusive"? Where did you find that the Israelites "made themselves an exclusive religion"? Didn't God instruct them in religious matters?

Right, the fact is they are just a very few ways we can hurt God and our fellow man. for instance there is no law in the 10 that tells us to love our neighbor or God. There is nothing about beating your wife. The Law of Love that Jesus gave us in Jn 14 and 15 indicates that if we love our fellow man we will never ever do him any harm. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we all would follow Jesus law He gave us in JN 15:10-14

I beg you to read the whole chapter of 1Jn 3. There you will find the law we as Christians transgress and it is not the old covenant now defunct laws as you have been taught by someone who is also confused.

Hey Bob,

I guess you missed my last post to you on this thread about DM Canright. How about answering it?

Is it important to keep the Sabbath?

Here is what you said. The period says it all Gary. There was no intention of trying to combine the two thoughts. It seems like you are just "picking" instead of realizing there is a problem with trying to use Isaiah's rendition of the New Earth. And the fact that I have not found anyone...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Gary K]

My understanding of Sabbath keeping is a pledge to not rely on yourself but on God who is the source and provider of all we need. God sanctified the 7th day and set it apart because he had done what he had done for his creation, they had everything they needed to live a wholesome life in the garden… everything was very good. God did not take a break because He was tired, He “sabat” rested, ceased to work because what he had done was complete and very good. In my opinion Adam and Eve had it good in the garden they had it all, the source of all life was their source, no striving or straining to make a life… When sin entered, they were cursed with labour and strife and toil.

Interesting that Noah… is the first instance of God providing a glimpse of a rest that would come for the children of Adam…his name meaning rest according to Strongs (nuach).

In addition, it must of been a huge shock to the Israelites to finally have a God who would allow them rest, considering they were coming from Egypt, where all they knew was work, not just work but slavery... to be given a whole day off without having to work for it... culture shock Id say ... (mmm where is the catch Moses). But in honour of God, a day is set aside to honour Him.. beside it being great for them it was a rebuttal against the gods of Egypt that this God of Israel cares and loves and that He is totally Other.

I guess you missed this post of mine as you've never replied to it.

The Sabbath is grace.

No, not at all. It's actually quite the opposite. These passages have a lot of dimensions to them and can only be understood properly if we understand what happened to the Israelites in order for them to pass into their promise land (rest) the writer of Hebrews is making a parallel teaching...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Bob S]

Hey Bob,

I guess you missed my last post to you on this thread about DM Canright. How about answering it?

Is it important to keep the Sabbath?

Here is what you said. The period says it all Gary. There was no intention of trying to combine the two thoughts. It seems like you are just "picking" instead of realizing there is a problem with trying to use Isaiah's rendition of the New Earth. And the fact that I have not found anyone...

www.christianforums.com

We both are relying on the words of others. Who is telling the real truth. Well, I read Canright's book he wrote himself. I believe he was an honest Christian who had a very large dedicated interest in the SDA church just as I once had. Those who left the church were deemed as lost and excuses drummed up to make them look bad in the eyes of the "faithful". This is the way it was and still is. What a shame to be treated in this way. The church I now attend believes if a person wants to join another group it is done with our blessings in hope they will grow in their Christian experience. What a difference.

Do some Adventists shun? I can attest to the fact that some really do. This is a sick deplorable act.

 

[Bob S]

Hey Bob,

I guess you missed my last post to you on this thread about DM Canright. How about answering it?

Is it important to keep the Sabbath?

Here is what you said. The period says it all Gary. There was no intention of trying to combine the two thoughts. It seems like you are just "picking" instead of realizing there is a problem with trying to use Isaiah's rendition of the New Earth. And the fact that I have not found anyone...

www.christianforums.com

Is it important to keep the Sabbath?​

Here is what you said. The period says it all Gary. There was no intention of trying to combine the two thoughts. It seems like you are just "picking" instead of realizing there is a problem with trying to use Isaiah's rendition of the New Earth. And the fact that I have not found anyone...

How about answering that Gary.

 

[Rose_bud]

I guess you missed this post of mine as you've never replied to it.

The Sabbath is grace.

No, not at all. It's actually quite the opposite. These passages have a lot of dimensions to them and can only be understood properly if we understand what happened to the Israelites in order for them to pass into their promise land (rest) the writer of Hebrews is making a parallel teaching...

www.christianforums.com

Please elaborate on what you mean with this.

 

[Gary K]

We both are relying on the words of others. Who is telling the real truth. Well, I read Canright's book he wrote himself. I believe he was an honest Christian who had a very large dedicated interest in the SDA church just as I once had. Those who left the church were deemed as lost and excuses drummed up to make them look bad in the eyes of the "faithful". This is the way it was and still is. What a shame to be treated in this way. The church I now attend believes if a person wants to join another group it is done with our blessings in hope they will grow in their Christian experience. What a difference.

Do some Adventists shun? I can attest to the fact that some really do. This is a sick deplorable act.

So you think a turncoat is an honest trustworthy type of guy. I don't. The people who used him didn't think so either. That's how I know you didn't read the article, or if you did, you think even the testimony of his personal secretary after he left the church was a liar.

 

[Gary K]

Please elaborate on what you mean with this.

The meaning is very clear. Sin and unbelief are as impossible to separate as Jesus and righteousness.

 

[Rose_bud]

The meaning is very clear. Sin and unbelief are as impossible to separate as Jesus and righteousness.

I don't recall ever disagreeing, that unbelief is not a sin.

 

[Gary K]

I don't recall ever disagreeing, that unbelief is not a sin.

But you don't agree that disobedience will keep us out of heaven. Hebrews, as I quoted you. tell us it will as disobedience and unbelief are tied at the hip. Paul tells us the following:

1Corinthians 10: 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

The experience of the Israelites in the wilderness was given us an example of how not to behave.

 

[Rose_bud]

But you don't agree that disobedience will keep us out of heaven. Hebrews, as I quoted you. tell us it will as disobedience and unbelief are tied at the hip. Paul tells us the following:

1Corinthians 10: 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

The experience of the Israelites in the wilderness was given us an example of how not to behave.

My friend you are clearly misunderstanding what I am saying . Never did I say that it was ok to disobey God.
As I stated earlier I suspect you are trying to argue that I should agree with your understanding of the law (most notably keeping the Sabbath legalistically when I am fully persuaded from scripture and experience that it is not so. So I cannot.)

Here is what I don't agree with so that it is clear.
1. What I don't agree with is obedience that stems from our own efforts to please God. God is the one that empowers us to please Him that is why we have faith IN HIM, because we cannot do it in our own strength. HE IS THE SOURCE, all things start and ends with Him Remember Exodus 20:2. He is the one who chose to deliver Israel and the one to take them into the land of promise. He is the One who chose to deliver us and will do the same (already but not yet).
2. What I don't agree with is the scriptures you've quoted without considering the immediate and broader context in order to create a doctrine of legalistic Sabbath keeping.

The SABBATH is a gift my friend, don't make it a burden.

 

[Gary K]

My friend you are clearly misunderstanding what I am saying . Never did I say that it was ok to disobey God.
As I stated earlier I suspect you are trying to argue that I should agree with your understanding of the law (most notably keeping the Sabbath legalistically when I am fully persuaded from scripture and experience that it is not so. So I cannot.)

Here is what I don't agree with so that it is clear.
1. What I don't agree with is obedience that stems from our own efforts to please God. God is the one that empowers us to please Him that is why we have faith IN HIM, because we cannot do it in our own strength. HE IS THE SOURCE, all things start and ends with Him Remember Exodus 20:2. He is the one who chose to deliver Israel and the one to take them into the land of promise. He is the One who chose to deliver us and will do the same (already but not yet).
2. What I don't agree with is the scriptures you've quoted without considering the immediate and broader context in order to create a doctrine of legalistic Sabbath keeping.

If you have ever read any of my posts you know I believe in righteousness by faith. You also know that I believe salvation is relational. It's who we know that saves us as clearly stated in John 17: 3. I'm not a legalist, I just do not believe we can deliberately choose to disobey God and still have a saving relationship with Him. You can believe anything you choose but if it results in disobeying God the outcome will mot be pleasant. Hebrews 7 makes that clear.

 

[Rose_bud]

If you have ever read any of my posts you know I believe in righteousness by faith. You also know that I believe salvation is relational. It's who we know that saves us as clearly stated in John 17: 3. I'm not a legalist, I just do not believe we can deliberately choose to disobey God and still have a saving relationship with Him. You can believe anything you choose but if it results in disobeying God the outcome will mot be pleasant. Hebrews 7 makes that clear.

And as mentioned in my previous post I do believe in rest, setting aside a day to acknowledge the sustainer of my life. I just don't do that on a day that you believe is that specific day. Everyday that I acknowledge Him and intentionally rest in His presence is the sweetest of fellowship. So I really don't believe God will condemn me to hell because I don't agree with your particular day.

 

[Gary K]

And as mentioned in my previous post I do believe in rest, setting aside a day to acknowledge the sustainer of my life. I just don't do that on a day that you believe is that specific day. Everyday that I acknowledge Him and intentionally rest in His presence is the sweetest of fellowship. So I really don't believe God will condemn me to hell because I don't agree with your particular day.

I also worship God at all times. But the more I learn to love Him the less inclined I am to look for supposed loopholes in scripture to disobey Him. He set aside the day He tells us to remember and that's the day you seemingly refuse to remember and keep holy.

 

[Rose_bud]

I also worship God at all times. But the more I learn to love Him the less inclined I am to look for supposed loopholes in scripture to disobey Him. He set aside the day He tells us to remember and that's the day you seemingly refuse to remember and keep holy.

Same here, I love worshipping Him. Therefore the less inclined I am to read text verses in insolation to create doctrines that places me in bondage and condemn me, when I know I have been liberated by His death and resurrection. And the more inclined I am to consider the whole counsel of Scripture in its context. Searching for His timeless principles which I can apply to my own context. In order to glorify Him with the life that He empowers me to live.

 

[Gary K]

Same here, I love worshipping Him. Therefore the less inclined I am to read text verses in insolation to create doctrines that places me in bondage and condemn me, when I know I have been liberated by His death and resurrection. And the more inclined I am to consider the whole counsel of Scripture in its context. Searching for His timeless principles which I can apply to my own context. In order to glorify Him with the life that He empowers me to live.

Isolation? The Bible is full of commands for us to obey Him and how disobedience is tied at the hip to unbelief. You actually have to read your beliefs into scripture.

Look at the controversy over circumcision found in the NT. As the early chujrch was made up of Jews why do we not see the same controversy over the Sabbath? All we see is silence. The Catholics tell us openly that they changed the day of worship from the seventh day to the first day.

[pg. 181]


Q. In what manner can we show a Protestant, that he speaks unreasonably against fasts and abstinences?
A. Ask him why he keeps Sunday, and not Saturday, as his day of rest, since he is unwilling either to fast or to abstain. If he reply, that the Scripture orders him to keep the Sunday, but says nothing as to fasting and abstinence, tell him the Scripture speaks of Saturday or the Sabbath, but gives no command anywhere regarding Sunday or the first day of the week. If, then, he neglects Saturday as a day of rest and holiness, and substitutes Sunday in its place, and this merely because such was the usage of the ancient Church, should he not, if he wishes to act consistently, observe fasting and abstinence, because the ancient Church so ordained?

A Doctrinal Catechism by Stephen Keenan

Since when did God give man the authority yo change His law?

 

[eleos1954]

Then in Matt 5 Jesus is lying. He said He came to fulfill the prophecies concerning His coming and fulfill the Law. Since you don't believe Jesus removed the barrier, the Law, as stated in Eph 2:15 then you should also believe not even one jot or tittle of the entire law has been removed. Have you read all of the laws and what they entailed?

Have you read Jesus words in Jn 6:24 where those who believe in Him will not even be judged. 1Jn 3:19-24 tells us that we belong to the truth if we believe and love others as He taught us. It says nothing about keeping the defunct old covenant Law. Where did you get the information you are spreading? Certainly not from the Apostle Paul.

Those who have not followed Christ wil face some kind of judgment, but as to whether they will be lost is not our call.

Thank you Jesus for bearing my sins.. Thank You for removing the barrier that kept Gentiles and Jews apart. Now we all can come to the throne and become sinless through His blood.

The old covenant Laws have been removed from the Jews as Jesus stated. Gentiles were never under them. I repeat Gentiles were never under Torah law. Tell me something. When did God put Gentiles under obligation to keep the Sabbath.?

When did God obligate Gentiles to keep any of the ceremonial laws that Jews were under. He allowed them to be circumcised and partake of the rituals, But when did He obligate them?

Oh is that right? Were they not God's special people. Didn't that make them "exclusive"? Where did you find that the Israelites "made themselves an exclusive religion"? Didn't God instruct them in religious matters?

Right, the fact is they are just a very few ways we can hurt God and our fellow man. for instance there is no law in the 10 that tells us to love our neighbor or God. There is nothing about beating your wife. The Law of Love that Jesus gave us in Jn 14 and 15 indicates that if we love our fellow man we will never ever do him any harm. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we all would follow Jesus law He gave us in JN 15:10-14

I beg you to read the whole chapter of 1Jn 3. There you will find the law we as Christians transgress and it is not the old covenant now defunct laws as you have been taught by someone who is also confused.

All will be judged .... judgement is a legal term ... judgement requires law else one can not be judged (that is ... nothing by which one is measured against to determine guilt or innocence)

The ceremonial laws (in the sanctuary system) are the laws that were done away with .... no longer needed because Jesus became our High Priest and no need for earthly priests, nor a earthly sanctuary system. The real sanctuary is in heaven.

God IS love. Love is a principle .... putting others before self. If we love God (#1) that kind of love will be likened into how we treat one another .... and thereby the two (loving God and loving our neighbor) with #1 the greatest commandment being fulfilled and the 2nd likened to it. Putting others before self .... Love was starkly seen when Jesus died for all on the cross, offering His life for all of humanity and creating a path by which mankind might be saved .... through Him.

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “ 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. ' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.

Then in Matt 5 Jesus is lying. He said He came to fulfill the prophecies concerning His coming and fulfill the Law.

It's impossible for God/Jesus to lie.

Hebrews 6:18-19 New Living Translation (NLT)So God has given both his promise and his oath. These two things are unchangeable because it is impossible for God to lie.

He also said the law would not change ... until the passing away of the earth ... and yes all prophesy will be fulfilled. Jesus did keep the law ... but did not do away with the law. Those in Him will be pardoned from their sin (transgression of the law)

Matthew 5:18
KJ21
For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.

and in Revelation it says to keep the commandments

Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The 10 commandments are laws of love ... that is ... when kept Love is manifested fully

Mankind has and always does break the covenant laws (the 10), God/Jesus does not ... that is why all must go through Jesus because He was the only one that kept them.

Jesus is the embodiment of the law

Jesus is not only the perfect embodiment of the law, but the great fulfiller who stands in our place.

There is nothing wrong with the law (the 10) that God should do away with it .... there is something wrong with us ... not something wrong with the law.

What do you find wrong with the law (the 10)?

Psalm 19:7
King James Bible
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Without the law we would not know what sin (transgression of the law) is ... the law is written on everyone's heart ... no matter who they are ... and only God knows the heart and He will judge according to hearts.

Proverbs 16:1-3 Amplified Bible (AMP)

All the ways of a man are clean and innocent in his own eyes [and he may see nothing wrong with his actions], But the LORD weighs and examines the motives and intents [of the heart and knows the truth].

Revelation 20:12
King James Version​

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Romans 3:31

Amplified Bible
Do we then nullify the Law by this faith [making the Law of no effect, overthrowing it]? Certainly not! On the contrary, we confirm and establish and uphold the Law [since it convicts us all of sin, pointing to the need for salvation].

 

[Rose_bud]

Isolation? The Bible is full of commands for us to obey Him and how disobedience is tied at the hip to unbelief. You actually have to read your beliefs into scripture.

Look at the controversy over circumcision found in the NT. As the early chujrch was made up of Jews why do we not see the same controversy over the Sabbath? All we see is silence. The Catholics tell us openly that they changed the day of worship from the seventh day to the first day.

[pg. 181]


Q. In what manner can we show a Protestant, that he speaks unreasonably against fasts and abstinences?
A. Ask him why he keeps Sunday, and not Saturday, as his day of rest, since he is unwilling either to fast or to abstain. If he reply, that the Scripture orders him to keep the Sunday, but says nothing as to fasting and abstinence, tell him the Scripture speaks of Saturday or the Sabbath, but gives no command anywhere regarding Sunday or the first day of the week. If, then, he neglects Saturday as a day of rest and holiness, and substitutes Sunday in its place, and this merely because such was the usage of the ancient Church, should he not, if he wishes to act consistently, observe fasting and abstinence, because the ancient Church so ordained?

A Doctrinal Catechism by Stephen Keenan

Since when did God give man the authority yo change His law?

Hey there friend...
Hope you are good. Went camping, so wasn't going to respond... had a bit of a "shabat".

The response from silence, to say that something is so because nobody said anything about it, is not a great argument. I could argue the same. There was silence on the matter because everyone understood that the Lords day is the day of new things and celebrating that day is the day everyone ceases from work to celebrate Him.

We do not change Gods law, we apply it to our own contexts. The same way the Israelites applied it to theirs. The Law of Christ is to love Him and Love each other. How do we apply the law, by realising what it was meant for. The Shabbat was meant for man, a gift given by God to humanity to acknowledge Him as the source of all creation and all that we do.

 

[Gary K]

Hey there friend...
Hope you are good. Went camping, so wasn't going to respond... had a bit of a "shabat".

The response from silence, to say that something is so because nobody said anything about it, is not a great argument. I could argue the same. There was silence on the matter because everyone understood that the Lords day is the day of new things and celebrating that day is the day everyone ceases from work to celebrate Him.

We do not change Gods law, we apply it to our own contexts. The same way the Israelites applied it to theirs. The Law of Christ is to love Him and Love each other. How do we apply the law, by realising what it was meant for. The Shabbat was meant for man, a gift given by God to humanity to acknowledge Him as the source of all creation and all that we do.

How do human beings make anything holy? We can't as we are sinful right down to the level of our DNA. God is the only one who can sanctify anything or anybody.

Genesis 2: 1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

 

[Rose_bud]

How do human beings make anything holy? We can't as we are sinful right down to the level of our DNA. God is the only one who can sanctify anything or anybody.

Genesis 2: 1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Hi there.

I don't disagree God is holy, and he calls us to be holy... to be set apart, to be totally "other"
Leviticus 11:45 I am the LORD, who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy...
There it is again... It originates with Him... our source... because they would have to represent Him to the other nations, they were to respond in a particular way as a particular people. So the Sabbath day the 4th commandment was to be kept
1. GOD - in honor and acknowledgement of God who provides and of the one who freed them from slavery (not in our own strength)
2. SELF - for their benefit, as it allowed them rest and provision
3. CREATION - animals and land could rest
4. OTHERS - they got to rest but others would also be able to see that Israel's God was a totally different God than those of wood and stone, He commanded respect and he cared enough to give them rest.

All things, all of creation could rest, it acknowledged God as the CREATOR God... as I said in a previous post. God was progressively revealing who He was to a people that did not know Him. This revelation would culminate in God become flesh in the person of Jesus Christ who was Lord of the Sabbath, that is the One who was greater than... as he created it... (John 1:3). He is the climax of our biblical story.

God did not "shabat" on the seventh day because He needed it... what kind of God would he be if he got tired or weary? He ceased because all that He had created was "very good". He didn't need to do anything else... I surmise that if Adam and Eve had not sinned they would have been in a perpetual shabat... where what they were asked to do i.e.. be fruitful and multiply ..."cultivate the land" would not be burdensome or laborious. But that it would flow naturally from this "very good".…

 

[Gary K]

Hi there.

I don't disagree God is holy, and he calls us to be holy... to be set apart, to be totally "other"
Leviticus 11:45 I am the LORD, who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy...
There it is again... It originates with Him... our source... because they would have to represent Him to the other nations, they were to respond in a particular way as a particular people. So the Sabbath day the 4th commandment was to be kept
1. GOD - in honor and acknowledgement of God who provides and of the one who freed them from slavery (not in our own strength)
2. SELF - for their benefit, as it allowed them rest and provision
3. CREATION - animals and land could rest
4. OTHERS - they got to rest but others would also be able to see that Israel's God was a totally different God than those of wood and stone, He commanded respect and he cared enough to give them rest.

All things, all of creation could rest, it acknowledged God as the CREATOR God... as I said in a previous post. God was progressively revealing who He was to a people that did not know Him. This revelation would culminate in God become flesh in the person of Jesus Christ who was Lord of the Sabbath, that is the One who was greater than... as he created it... (John 1:3). He is the climax of our biblical story.

God did not "shabat" on the seventh day because He needed it... what kind of God would he be if he got tired or weary? He ceased because all that He had created was "very good". He didn't need to do anything else... I surmise that if Adam and Eve had not sinned they would have been in a perpetual shabat... where what they were asked to do i.e.. be fruitful and multiply ..."cultivate the land" would not be burdensome or laborious. But that it would flow naturally from this "very good".…

So why do you keep Sunday when human beings cannot sanctify anything? The RCC openly admits they changed the day of worship. It is made up of sinful human beings too.