The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, has set us free from the law of sin and death?

[oikonomia]

I liked your post. But we were not sure about this translation.

I hear you saying MAYBE . . . (we (?) are not sure about this translation) (The RcV uses the Nestle Greek text)

So you don't come right out and say its a wrong translation. But you and (some others of the "we") have some
doubts about the English translation. I guess I should assume "we" means fellow trained translators of koine Greek to English.

Is there definitely another way you would translate it to be more representative of the verse?
Should I assume your alternative translation will show that the God of peace actually will NOT sanctify us wholly?

You are really sold on it I see. I look at the Greek more often than not so this translation of 5:23 troubled me a bit so I looked at it as the TR shares and decided I liked it lol.

If you looked into the Greek first notice that the construction of the sentence is similar to that of Matthew 28:19b.
baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ῾Αγίου Πνεύματος,

The conjunction "and" joining the three distinct names. [my emphasis]
Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Spirit.

Compare:

your spirit AND soul AND body indicating OUR three distinct parts of our complete being.
ὑμῶν τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ ἡ ψυχὴ καὶ τὸ σῶμα ἀμέμπτως

My only point here is to establish that WE human beings are of three parts which all together make us complete.

You are fond of captializing in English spirit such that you read our spirit is our Spirit.
I think it is clearer to distinguish when possible the Third Person of the Trinity - Spirit and the human
part - spirit.

The God of Peace sanctifies us perfectly. And completes our Spirit, soul and Body. Preserving us blameless at our Lord Jesus' coming. Amen

Here I understand your "Amen" to indicate "So Be It" as Paul wrote. May God really sanctify us perfectly and preserve us blameless at
His coming. To me that is a good sign that your translation doubt doesn't interfere too much with your willingness to
affirm God will do this work.

That is the proper response of faith I would say.

The clauses "May sanctify" and "may preserve" use the word may due those words being in the optative mood. Which expresses one's desire. Since it is a prayer that makes sense.

I assume this "optative mood" expresses Paul's and / or God's desire.
Fine. Paul would not long for something God was not able to do.
Neither would God assure us of something He is unable to do.

In fact the very next verse says - "Faithful is He who calls you, who also will do it." (v. 24)
If you prefer the original - πιστὸς ὁ καλῶν ὑμᾶς, ὃς καὶ ποιήσει.

Now we may come to a deeper understanding of Paul's desire / God's desire / God's ability to do it.

The context of the letter and indeed the whole New Testament is that we must render our cooperation.
We may hinder Him from doing it fully or completely on His timetable.
God is desiring. God is willing. God is able. But He needs our cooperation.

So "Faithful is He who calls you, who also will do it" is not that He will do it if we hinder Him in foolish resistence.
The cumulative exhortations of the previous chapters 1 - 4 including 5 are the Apostle's appeal that the Thessalonians WOULD
cooperate with the sanctifying Savior God.

Yet we come to a finer point which I firmly believe.
We may procrastinate the work.
We may postpone the work.
We may cause the Triune God a little trouble so that He completes the work latter than His perfect will determined.
We can drag our feet and cause the work to be completed latter than it was SUPPOSED to be complete.

But we cannot stop Him from sanctifying us wholly - spirit and soul and body eventually.
God has all the time He needs. It is we who should use the time wisely.

Now, if He cannot complete this work by the time of Christ's coming on SOME of His children,
His hands are not tied. He can complete the work in the age to come in the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.

But complete the work of full sanctifiction that we be blameless HE WILL DO before the age of the new heaven and new earth.
So the statement is true "Faithful is He who calls you, who also will do it"

We ought not stagger in any unbelief. Because it is ordained for us even before the creation of the universe.
Before the foundation of the world God had in His heart to have sons blameless before Him in love.

καθὼς καὶ ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου εἶναι ἡμᾶς ἁγίους καὶ ἀμώμους κατενώπιον αὐτοῦ, ἐν ἀγάπῃ προορίσας ἡμᾶς εἰς υἱοθεσίαν διὰ ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰς αὐτόν, κατὰ τὴν εὐδοκίαν τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ,

Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (Eph. 1:4,5)

And He is able to present us faultless before His presence.

But to Him who is able to guard you from stumbling and to set you before His glory without blemish in exultation, (Jude 24)

SO . . . lets give First Thessalonians 5:23 a big "Amen."

1Thess 5:23 Αὐτὸς δὲ Now Himself
ὁ The
θεὸς God
τῆς εἰρήνης the Of Peace
ἁγιάσαι May Sanctify
ὑμᾶς You
ὁλοτελεῖς PERFECTLY


καὶ And
ὁλόκληρον COMPLETE '
ὑμῶν of you
τὸ πνεῦμα the Spirit
καὶ And
ἡ ψυχὴ the Soul
καὶ And
τὸ σῶμα the Body
ἀμέμπτως Blameless (without fault)
ἐν IN (at)
τῇ The
παρουσίᾳ Coming
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Of Our Lord
Ἰησοῦ Jesus
Χριστοῦ Christ
τηρηθείη May Be Preserved.

Now if some still are doubtful about being presented blameless introspection is not the solution.
Rather we learn from the one who wrote this, the Apostle Paul, simply to have nothing that we are aware of on our conscience.
We are confessed up of all known sins. And we endevour to have a conscience void of offense before God and men.
That is really all God asks of us.

Because of this I also exercise myself to always have a conscience without offense toward God and men. (Acts 24:16)

I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers in a pure conscience, (2 Tim. 1:3a)

Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. (1 Tim. 3:9)

For I am conscious of nothing against myself; but I am not justified in this, but He who examines me is the Lord. (1 Cor. 4:4)

Comments further ?

 

[oikonomia]

I know of your religious philosophy. I have been influenced by it since my youth. I am more interested in what the Scriptures actually teach and there is not one place in the entire Scriptures where God's Law is defined as anything near like the Law of gravity.

First let me say I am impressed with the way you go over the Scripture highlighting the portions which jump out to you as
so significant. I encourage this practice especially in meditating and musing over the word with a prayerful spirit.

It would be an honor to get with you and read slowly the word of God hunting prayerfully for those phrases, portions, and clauses which
seem to especially speak out. The word is so living and operative and breathed out by God this is dynamic. It may change as He speaks
a rhema word to use expressly.

Now below all I ask is to be given opportunity to show why a certain problem for you is not a problem for me. That's all I hope to share.

The implication is that Jesus wasn't obedient

Let's clear this up first. First on the side of the Son of God, and secondly on the part of the sons of God.
I don't mean to leave you with the thought Jesus was not obedient, disobedient to the Father.
Nor would I have you think we regenerated Christians have no responsibility to obey the Spirit.

When I used the analogy of "power steering" I tried to indicate man's need to cooperate with the law of the Spirit of life.
But absolutely there is obeying the teaching of the anointing. And absolutely there is the abiding in Him.
And absolutely there is the obeying His flow of commandments to steer our inward being to walk as He would have us walk.

So I am not suggesting that God is no longer a living and speaking Person speaking to our heart to turn towards His will.
It is mysterious, this mingling of God and man. To mingle two or more things together means that they are distinguishable in
the combination. It is a biblical world. And the Spirit of life and our human spirit are mingled together.

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

The Christian walks in a manner in which Jesus walked. He pioneered the way living by His Father.
Then He accomplished redemption and resurrected and ascended to Heaven.
But He also transfigured Himself into the God suppplying, life supplying, divine nature supplyin Spirit to indwell us.

[T]he last Adam became a life giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45b)

He we must "eat" - draw up from our innermost praying organ, our spirit, into our mind, emotion, will. That is WILL to DECIDE to
go along with Him.

As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me.
This is the bread which came down out of heaven, (John 6:57,58a)

because He Humbled Himself to God's Law,

Well yes. But tell me which law did He obey when He healed a man on the Sabbath to the indignation of the priests, scribes, Pharasees, and experts in the Torah?

He obeyed the working Father in a seamless incorporation of harmonious living.

And because of this the Jews persecuted Jesus and sought to kill Him, because He did these things on the Sabbath.
But Jesus answered them, My Father is working until now, and I also am working. (John 5:16,17)

As His being is intertwined with the eternal Father so we now have same relationship with Him- (ie He and His Father as the divine "We")

Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. (John 14:23)

Can we agree that abiding in Him and obeying the teaching of the anointing is not reducing the Spirit of life to an impersonal force or law?
Yes, I continue the illustration of the law of the Spirit of life (the grace) being an empowering energizing flow with which we must go along.

You therefore, my child, be empowered in the grace which is in Christ Jesus; (2 Tim. 2:1)

Surely Studyman, we must obey the moving of the Spirit of life that its empowering law might liberate us.

And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (2 Cor. 3:17)

as the Scriptures state, but that like the Law of Gravity, obedience was natural for Him because HE was not a man like unto His Brethren and had access to powers HIS Father only gave to Him and no other human ever. And then, even though Jesus never risked anything, because HE couldn't sin, God gave Him a name above all other men anyway.

First we must show that He did deny Himself even though He was a perfect man. He did not live by that perfection.
He LIVED by the Father. And this cost Him even the death of a cross for which He had great stress to obey to the uttermost His Father.

I am sure you see this living by the Father was not always easy. Look at His desperate prayers in the Garden of Gethsename.
I take fully your reference to Philippians that He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death even that of a cross.

Paul was obedient and lived "in Him" and said he could do all things only through God who strenthened him.
I am able to do all things in Him who empowers me. (Phil. 4:13)

I like the illustration of power steering to see how grace works.
And "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:2) is also "the Spirit of grace." (Heb. 10:29)

You don't like it ? Oh well.
Amen to the Lord as divine life living in us.
.

 

[oikonomia]

I reject this philosophy outright as I have explained before. It demeans the Christ and discredits His Father as promoting some kind of show, a deception. The Scrip[tures don't teach it, yet it is widely believed.

No it doesn't do that. Calm yourself.

There is a habit among the "many" who come in Christ's Name to only use the parts of Scripture which they can use to justify or promote a certain religious philosophy that could not stand, if all Scriptures was considered.

That is true. However I don't think I have done any promoting deceptive philosophy.
I can't crumble under "guilt by association". Not that I am some perfect teacher though.

James says we all who teach make mistakes.

I can match you in passion that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter. (Rom. 7:6)

You see we have a working model as local churches in recovery of the Lord in many cities over the earth.
It is more than a philsophy. It is our experience that we are discharged from the law and serve in newness of Spirit in our spirit.

But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter. (Rom. 7:6)

Maybe I could calm your alarm to add that Paul also said we are enslaved to righteousness. Better? No?

And having been freed from sin, you were enslaved to righteousness. (Rom. 6:18)

So be at peace. This is a paradox. We are set free- "where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom"
yet were are also "enslaved to righteousness."

So He obeyed and led the way to live in us that He could again obey for us.
His desire is to live again on the earth but now in each of His brothers in His resurrection.

"Because I live you also shall live" (John 14:19)

For instance, here is what Paul actually said.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

What could Jesus do that the LAW could not do?

Jesus could dispense Himself into us. Jesus could impart God's life into us as the divine SEED of life.
The law cannot do that- not then and not now.

Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God. (1 John 3:9)

So this seed of life, like any seed must grow. This growth of the life of God in His saved is called "the growth of God".

And not holding the Head, out from whom all the Body, being richly supplied and knit together by means of the joints and sinews, grows with the growth of God. (Col. 2:19)

Notice it says we must hold the Head. It is not we must hold the Law.

Teach us Righteousness? No, the Law can do that.

It cannot teach us to be born again and hold the living Head to grow with the growth of God.
Because the law was given by God it can be used eventually by Satan to distract us FROM Christ.

The law was given through Moses a servant of God of course.
Grace and reality came through Jesus Christ.

The law was given. Christ did not come to re-give the law which Moses was sent to give.
Christ has come to be the end of the law unto righteousness and impart into man's being grace and reality.

For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17)

I hope we are closer than I think on this.
It is not the law was given through Moses. Then Jesus Christ came to do that again, give us the law.
No. The law was given. Grace CAME. When Jesus comes, grace comes.

We receive this grace in "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus."

Show us what Sin is? No!, The Law can do that? How about forgive our trespasses, or condemn sin in our flesh? Can the LAW do that? NO! The LAW cannot remove sin, or condemn sin i our flesh. There is no LAW given by God that I can do that will remove by guilt. So how is my sin forgiven? God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:.

I need time to really digest this.
But the condemning of sin in the flesh goes beyond just providing forgiveness.
His condemning sin in the flesh is associated with the terminating power of His death to nullify, terminate, the old man.

I think this coming to die on the cross to condemn sin in the flesh is more related to termination than redemption.
Right here we see the effect of His condemning sin in the flesh for us.

Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
We have been buried therefore with Him through baptism into His death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life. (Rom. 6:1)

Please do not misunderstand me. There is the REDEMPTIVE blood for our forgiveness.
But there is also the TERMINATING power in His death to put to death the old man, crucifying him and crossing him out.

Both of these benefits are in the Spirit of Christ.
We sink into the Spirit and we enjoy the cleansing of the blood for our forgiveness.
We sing more into the Spirit and enjoy Him putting to death the practices of the body.

The power of the cross to terminate the old habits is strictly in the Spirit of life.
We touch His forgiveness there. We also must go on to touch the putting to death power to terminate the old man.
And one of the acts of the old man (one) his desire to be a law keeper.

There are "bad" sinners. And there are "good" law keeping sinners.
Both kinds need rebirth, forgiveness, and termination that they might walk in newness of life.

 

[oikonomia]

Why does God want Sin condemned in my Flesh?

Mainly because He cannot accomplish His eternal purpose to dispsense Himself into man with the Sin problem.

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, "who walk" not after the flesh, "but after the Spirit".

I love the way you highlight what you really want to draw attention to.
This is the way I have been led to pray over the word of God- in prayreading.

That is going over the Scripture like a hunter for uranium uses a geiger counter.
When the click picks up in my heart, I linger there and absorb more of its light.

This is an excellent way to eat the Lord. The emphasis may change as the rhema word of life jumps out at us expressely.

I'll stop here this morning.
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

One might ask, how can I walk after the Spirit? Well, ask yourself the question, did Jesus Walk in the Spirit? And then trust the Scriptures that tell you;

Yes. Today even I will be in stituations in which I will ask this.
"Lord Jesus, I want to walk by You here."

1 John 2: 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so "to walk", even as he walked.

Amen.

Don't listen to the other voice in the garden, even if they do "Come in Christ's Name" or "Transform themselves as apostles of Christ", listen to God and walk in His Law, just as Jesus and Paul taught and did.

Okay.
Eat of the tree of life. Do not eat of the knowledge of good and evil though it looks good.

Amen. Christ is the life. Christ is the water of life and the bread of life and the breath of life (John 20).

After all, it is what we are created to do.

Ecc. 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

It concerns me a little when people place Ecclesiastes as the conclusion of the New Testament.
But I love that book very much. All Scripture is God breathed and profitable for inhaling.

And again;

Eph 2: 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus "unto good works", which God hath before ordained that we should "walk in them".

Amen to Ephesians 2:10 and the whole book of Ephesians as well.

This is why it's important to establish undeniable Biblical Truths to build on.

Yes.

Was the "Law of the Spirit of Life" God's Law?

No. I would never put it that the law of the Spirit of life is the Law of Moses which he gave in the writtenTorah.

The contrast is there -

For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. (John 1;16,17)

You may cut me off if you wish. But it is not "The law was given through Moses.Then the law was given again through Jesus Christ."

That is not what the Bible says.
Now if you want to argue that the Law expresses the nature of God then I completely agree.

Or did Jesus Walk in another?

What He lived was finer - the life of His Father.
The law experts who opposed Him, crucifying Him, did not understand that. But His lovers understood.

Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.
If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and henceforth you know Him and have seen Him. (John 14:6,7)

The truth is, when God placed before Jesus "Life and Good, Death and Evil", Jesus Chose Life. I don't care what the Pope says, or Calvin, or Kenneth Copeland, or any other voice in the garden god placed me in might say. The "LAW of the Spirit of Life" that was in Jesus, was God's Law. That is an undeniable Biblical Truth.

In choosing the Father He did some things which the experts in the Law of Moses got enraged with.
Why?

 

[Studyman]

First let me say I am impressed with the way you go over the Scripture highlighting the portions which jump out to you as
so significant. I encourage this practice especially in meditating and musing over the word with a prayerful spirit.

It would be an honor to get with you and read slowly the word of God hunting prayerfully for those phrases, portions, and clauses which
seem to especially speak out. The word is so living and operative and breathed out by God this is dynamic. It may change as He speaks
a rhema word to use expressly.

Now below all I ask is to be given opportunity to show why a certain problem for you is not a problem for me. That's all I hope to share.

Let's clear this up first. First on the side of the Son of God, and secondly on the part of the sons of God.
I don't mean to leave you with the thought Jesus was not obedient, disobedient to the Father.

My friend, this is exactly what I mean by taking a part of what is said, and then building your entire reply based on the "part" you posted, while ignoring the whole. It is truly a frustrating habit that "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, have adopted. Most times I don't even think they know what they are doing, it's just a nasty habit and because of exercise of use, it becomes natural. This reply of yours is the perfect example of this common tactic, especially among religious men who are promoting their adopted religious philosophy. I mean no disrespect here as I would do the same for you if your fly was unzipped. Please allow me to show you what you just did.

Here is what I actually said;

" The implication is that Jesus wasn't obedient because He Humbled Himself to God's Law, as the Scriptures state, but that like the Law of Gravity, obedience was natural for Him because HE was not a man like unto His Brethren and had access to powers HIS Father only gave to Him and no other human ever."

Hear is what you posted I said;

"The implication is that Jesus wasn't obedient".

And you replied "I don't mean to leave you with the thought Jesus was not obedient, disobedient to the Father."

Can you see what you did here? Because you only selected a few of my words, and continued as if this was my reply, you completely changed, completely corrupted the entire point I was making. As anyone can see, I never even implied Jesus was disobedient. Just as I never even implied that it was Paul's Fault "many" deceivers have come in Christ's Name, wresting Paul's words just as they do the other scriptures. And yet you continued on as if I did.

This is a horrible problem with this world's religions and is why Jesus and Paul warned specifically against "Many" who call Jesus Lord. I have watched you do the same thing to Paul's words as you do to mine, over and over. Using this tactic, the Pharisees justified their religious sect and their commandments of men. Using the same tactic, the Catholic Church justifies their religious business and traditions and high days. Using the same tactic, the JW justifies their religious sect. Using this tactic, the Baptist justifies their religious sect. And so on, and so on and on and on.

The Jesus "of the Bible" teaches men to live by "Every Word" of God. And that not one title shall pass away from the Law and Prophets, until He Has fulfilled All things. He clearly has not fulfilled all things written about Him, and His Judgment Seat.

There is no doubt that those Christians in Matt. 7:22 justified their religion with selective Scriptures as well.

I too, was placed in the same world as you, a world filled with differing religions all coming in Christ's Name. All competing for butts to fill the seats of their manmade shrines of worship. I too, was taught by these religions to adopt a few select verses which justify their religious philosophy. It was hard for me in the beginning, and humiliating, just as Jesus said there would be a cost for accepting His Truth, over this world's religions.

My hope is that God allows you to see what you just did to me and my words, a nobody, and to realize you do the same to God, and His Son, and those Prophets and Apostles, who are not nobodies, who they sent to us.

There are men who know they are deceiving others, and there are men, like me, who were simply deceived by them. I don't believe you are the former so I will give you the Words of Paul in closing out of Love for the Brethren.

2 Tim 3: 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. (You will be called a Legalist, trying to earn salvation, fallen from Christ by this world's religions)

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; (Learned of the Father)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (The Law and Prophets, the Gospel of Christ)

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God "may be perfect", (As the Jesus of the Bible commanded) throughly furnished unto all good works.

I hope you will consider.

 

[Studyman]

In choosing the Father He did some things which the experts in the Law of Moses got enraged with.
Why?

Here again, not to beat a dead horse, but Paul said these men you are preaching were "experts in the Law of Moses" were "ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." Jesus said Moses gave them the Law, but they didn't keep the Law. Jesus said of them that you call "the experts in the Law of Moses" " Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

These men who YOU are teaching others were "experts in the Law of Moses", Jesus called;

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Now why is it you are promoting a religious philosophy that is completely opposite of what is actually taught in scriptures? What spirit is moving you to teach others that the Pharisees were "experts in the Law of Moses"?

Who taught you this? Where did this knowledge come from? This is what I mean about establishing undeniable Biblical Truths that can be established. The question; "Where the Pharisees experts in the Law of Moses".

Mainstream Christianity answers yes, the Pharisees were "experts in the Law of Moses".

But what does Jesus say about them? What do the Prophets say about them? What does Paul say about them?

This is why I advocate listening to the Inspired Words of God alone, and not all the other voices in the garden God placed us in.

John 5: 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

46 For had ye believed Moses, (Like Caleb, Timothy, Zacharias and Peter) ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

All pride and fleshiness aside, can you see what the Scriptures have revealed here?

In the Love of God, I sincerely hope you can.

 

[HIM]

In the mean time. . . please enjoy this song a sister made up that I sing on this verse. Can't hurt.

So it is you singing with grace in your heart unto the Lord. Nice, Praise God!

lol I am a firm believer in these verses. Let us come into Your presence oh Lord with thanksgiving, making a joyful noise unto You Lord. With psalms and spiritual songs speaking of Your wondrous works. And Speaking unto one another in hymns and spiritual songs. Singing and making melody in our hearts unto You Lord. Letting the Word of Your Christ dwell in our hearts richly in all wisdom. Teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns with grace in hearts singing unto You Lord always. Amen!


Ps 95:2 Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms.

Ps 105:2 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works.


Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;


Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

 

[oikonomia]

My friend, this is exactly what I mean by taking a part of what is said, and then building your entire reply based on the "part" you posted, while ignoring the whole. It is truly a frustrating habit that "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, have adopted. Most times I don't even think they know what they are doing,

You never thought that that could be your problem?

it's just a nasty habit and because of exercise of use, it becomes natural. This reply of yours is the perfect example of this common tactic, especially among religious men who are promoting their adopted religious philosophy. I mean no disrespect here as I would do the same for you if your fly was unzipped. Please allow me to show you what you just did.

What an analogy that is, an unzipped fly.

Studyman you know brothers can get a complex sometimes like Elijah - "Lord, I'm the ONLY ONE left!"
Sometimes you're coming across with a tone like you're the only one left faithful to the Lord.

You're not the only one left faithful who is being hunted down so they can get rid of you too.
There are some other knees God has reserved who have not bowed down to Baal, or the Pope, or whoever you'd blame for apostasy.

Here is what I actually said;

" The implication is that Jesus wasn't obedient because He Humbled Himself to God's Law, as the Scriptures state, but that like the Law of Gravity, obedience was natural for Him because HE was not a man like unto His Brethren and had access to powers HIS Father only gave to Him and no other human ever."

No, I do not say or intend to communicate that the Son of God did not humble Himself.
It was His obedience to the Father.

Hear is what you posted I said;

"The implication is that Jesus wasn't obedient".

What passage would you point to to specifically say with such clarity that Jesus humbled Himself to keep the Law?

And you replied "I don't mean to leave you with the thought Jesus was not obedient, disobedient to the Father."

Can you see what you did here? Because you only selected a few of my words, and continued as if this was my reply, you completely changed, completely corrupted the entire point I was making. As anyone can see, I never even implied Jesus was disobedient.

We do want to understand each other. And I take no delight to misinterpret someone's belief.
You're right that I did clip the sentence you wrote. I should have quoted you to the period.
Sorry.

2 Tim 3: 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. (You will be called a Legalist, trying to earn salvation, fallen from Christ by this world's religions)

I didn't ever say you were trying to earn salvation in the sense of law keeping would do the work of eternal redemption.
We're talking about walking in the Spirit. As we received Christ Jesus the Lord we should continue to walk in Him.

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

So true.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; (Learned of the Father)

This is a good verse. In that verse "knowing of whom you have learned them" is guess who? It refers to Timothy's mentor in
the apostleship - Paul.

But you, continue in the things which you have learned and have been assured of, knowing from which ones you have learned them

It is the same as this -

But you have closely followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, long-suffering, love, endurance, (v.10a)

To follow Paul's example is to follow Christ. That is what he meant. Sure he did. Its like this also -

Be imitators of me, as I also am of Christ. (1 Cor. 11:1)

It is also like this -

Be imitators together of me, brothers, and observe those who thus walk even as you have us as a pattern. (Phil. 3:17)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (The Law and Prophets, the Gospel of Christ)

The only Scriptures they had when Paul wrote that was the Hebrew Scriptures.
Of course Christians should live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God in both the Old and New Testaments.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

No argument there from me.
Thank the Lord we have not only the Old Testament and the four gospels as God-breathed and profitable.
We also have Galatians, Philippians, Colossians, Ephesians, etc.

God breathed and protitable in doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness these which
help us to see living by Christ as our life verses the old covenant.

17 That the man of God "may be perfect", (As the Jesus of the Bible commanded) throughly furnished unto all good works.

I hope you will consider.

I surely do.
And I am not persecuting you for wanting to live godly in Christ Jesus.

 

[oikonomia]

So it is you singing with grace in your heart unto the Lord. Nice, Praise God!

Lol. Amen brother. He has really put a song into our hearts. Hasn't He.

lol I am a firm believer in these verses. Let us come into Your presence oh Lord with thanksgiving, making a joyful noise unto You Lord. With psalms and spiritual songs speaking of Your wondrous works. And Speaking unto one another in hymns and spiritual songs. Singing and making melody in our hearts unto You Lord. Letting the Word of Your Christ dwell in our hearts richly in all wisdom. Teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns with grace in hearts singing unto You Lord always. Amen!

Ps 95:2 Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms.

Ps 105:2 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works.

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;


Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

Yes indeed.

 

[oikonomia]

Here again, not to beat a dead horse,

You mean resurrect a dead horse. I like that better.

but Paul said these men you are preaching were "experts in the Law of Moses" were "ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." Jesus said Moses gave them the Law, but they didn't keep the Law. Jesus said of them that you call "the experts in the Law of Moses" " Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

These men who YOU are teaching others were "experts in the Law of Moses", Jesus called;

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

He really scolded them. Didn't He?

Now why is it you are promoting a religious philosophy that is completely opposite of what is actually taught in scriptures? What spirit is moving you to teach others that the Pharisees were "experts in the Law of Moses"?

I call them "experts in the Law of Moses." I don't think I do any harm. I really don't think calling the scribes and Pharisees the contempory
Torah experts.

But if my posts after you read them have the effect of hindering you from loving the Lord Jesus and living godly
in Christ Jesus, please do not read them anymore.

I do not want to have to answer to my Lord at His judgment seat "Jack Wilmore, why did you stumble my child and your brother from
living godly in Me?"

Who taught you this? Where did this knowledge come from? This is what I mean about establishing undeniable Biblical Truths that can be established. The question; "Where the Pharisees experts in the Law of Moses".

I did not say that they were able to obey that law.
I mean that if you wanted to know then what the Torah had in it, to the Pharisees you would go.

My saying they were experts in the law does not mean they were well pleasing in every way to God.
I take it that experts in the Law must mean there was no unrighteousness in them what-so-ever.

If by "experts" that is what you understand that is not what I mean.

Anyway, the magi came asking about where the born King of the Jews was to be born.
And Herod cunsulted with those "experts".
Funny, if they had been "experts" in your definition they would certainly have joined the magi to go the place to see
if the Messiah had been born there.

None of them seemed to have been curious to see.
In that sense they seemed to be really bad experts in the Law according to your sentiments.

Another indication that they were experts in some sense was that a number of times
when Jesus healed a leper He told them to go to the priests and follow the legal procedure for cleansing of lepers.

Jesus said to do what they say but not what they do.
So in that sense their expertise is in question according to your definition.

Mainstream Christianity answers yes, the Pharisees were "experts in the Law of Moses".

But what does Jesus say about them? What do the Prophets say about them? What does Paul say about them?

Paul was one of those experts according to my usage. And he had a reputation very high among them as a student
of Rabbi Gamaliel.

Let me put it this way. They were the Phds of the Torah. And Saul of Tarsus had his reputation among them before he became a Christian.

For you have heard of my manner of life formerly in Judaism, . . . And I advanced in Judaism beyond many contemporaries in my race, being more abundantly a zealot for the traditions of my fathers. (Gal. 4:13,14)

I only abbreviate the verse to highlight the part important to my point. Saul of Tarsus was one of the experts.

If any other man thinks that he has confidence in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day; of the race of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;
As to zeal, persecuting the church; as to the righteousness which is in the law, become blameless. (Phil. 3:4b-6)

This is why I advocate listening to the Inspired Words of God alone, and not all the other voices in the garden God placed us in.

Then I should not listen to you a Christian brother to see what you would say?
We need horizontal fellowship in the Body of Christ as well as vertical speaking from the Word.

I did not say any of us members of His Body are perfect teachers or cannot be tempered and adjusted by one another.
But we do build up one another sharing both or wisdom, knowlege, and most important our experience and our example of living.

Of course I have always checked everything major with the Scripture.

Your point is gotten I think. "Experts in the Law" would be experts in obeying it without fail.
Now Jesus He was your expert for real in the Law. I think I get your concept there.

 

[contratodo]

Eph. 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created "in righteousness and true holiness".

Yes, we generally agree I think. Notice also the above passage, the word conduct has been changed to conversation, but the context makes abundantly clear that the word is indeed "conduct". All instances of Paul saying 'conduct' have been changed to 'conversation'.
I believe strongly that Paul's words have been changed and twisted around on purpose to promote a false gospel.
The fullness of our faith is that faith without works is dead, being alone.

Faith shall avail you nothing, if it does not save you from your sins. John Wesley.

 

[HIM]

I hear you saying MAYBE . . . (we (?) are not sure about this translation)

Nah, as was said. " I liked your post. But we were not sure about this translation."
Notice the key operative word "were",

(.... the Nestle Greek text)

Hmm.... not a fan.

So you don't come right out and say its a wrong translation. But you and (some others of the "we") have some
doubts about the English translation. I guess I should assume "we" means fellow trained translators of koine Greek to English.

It is God that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure... So we have a big issue with using I in respect to this life in Christ.

Narcissism runs rapid in the Church. Pride is a terrible thing

Is there definitely another way you would translate it to be more representative of the verse?

That's what this was,
"The God of Peace sanctifies us perfectly. And completes our Spirit, soul and Body. Preserving us blameless at our Lord Jesus' coming. " to that a big Amen

Should I assume your alternative translation will show that the God of peace actually will NOT sanctify us wholly?

Wow.... NO. The issue was in the wording of said translation not the content. I read English translations and study the Greek and Hebrew. When I seen the translation you offered an alarm went off to look at it deeper. I thought within myself there was something wrong with it. And there is an issue in word placement, but there is no sense quibbling over it. The over all message gets through. And the message is what God wanted me to look at in depth not the little error. As a matter of fact the KJV, which I was weaned on and still to this read the most really butchered it. Maybe that is what God was showing me....
Do you see the difference between your version and it?


1Thess 5:23 (KJV) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23)

If you looked into the Greek first notice that the construction of the sentence is similar to that of Matthew 28:19b.
baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ῾Αγίου Πνεύματος,

The conjunction "and" joining the three distinct names. [my emphasis]
Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Spirit.

Compare:

your spirit AND soul AND body indicating OUR three distinct parts of our complete being.
ὑμῶν τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ ἡ ψυχὴ καὶ τὸ σῶμα ἀμέμπτως

Not really but I understand what you are trying to get at.

My only point here is to establish that WE human beings are of three parts which all together make us complete.

You are fond of captializing in English spirit such that you read our spirit is our Spirit.
I think it is clearer to distinguish when possible the Third Person of the Trinity - Spirit and the human
part - spirit.

No that was a typo that I didn't care to fix...sorry

Here I understand your "Amen" to indicate "So Be It" as Paul wrote. May God really sanctify us perfectly and preserve us blameless at
His coming. To me that is a good sign that your translation doubt doesn't interfere too much with your willingness to
affirm God will do this work.

That is the proper response of faith I would say.

Imagine Abraham trekking up the Mt. with Isaac to sacrifice him. Ours is not to question why.....you know the rest. And to that I am to say and do say amen also. Though I think it would be a slow walk for me.....

I assume this "optative mood" expresses Paul's and / or God's desire.
Fine. Paul would not long for something God was not able to do.
Neither would God assure us of something He is unable to do.

In fact the very next verse says - "Faithful is He who calls you, who also will do it." (v. 24)
If you prefer the original - πιστὸς ὁ καλῶν ὑμᾶς, ὃς καὶ ποιήσει.

Amen

His hands are not tied. He can complete the work in the age to come in the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.

It is appointed to man once to die and then judgement.

But complete the work of full sanctifiction that we be blameless HE WILL DO before the age of the new heaven and new earth.
So the statement is true "Faithful is He who calls you, who also will do it"

We ought not stagger in any unbelief. Because it is ordained for us even before the creation of the universe.
Before the foundation of the world God had in His heart to have sons blameless before Him in love.

καθὼς καὶ ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου εἶναι ἡμᾶς ἁγίους καὶ ἀμώμους κατενώπιον αὐτοῦ, ἐν ἀγάπῃ προορίσας ἡμᾶς εἰς υἱοθεσίαν διὰ ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰς αὐτόν, κατὰ τὴν εὐδοκίαν τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ,

Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (Eph. 1:4,5)

And He is able to present us faultless before His presence.

But to Him who is able to guard you from stumbling and to set you before His glory without blemish in exultation, (Jude 24)

SO . . . lets give First Thessalonians 5:23 a big "Amen."



Now if some still are doubtful about being presented blameless introspection is not the solution.
Rather we learn from the one who wrote this, the Apostle Paul, simply to have nothing that we are aware of on our conscience.
We are confessed up of all known sins. And we endevour to have a conscience void of offense before God and men.
That is really all God asks of us.

Because of this I also exercise myself to always have a conscience without offense toward God and men. (Acts 24:16)

I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers in a pure conscience, (2 Tim. 1:3a)

Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. (1 Tim. 3:9)

For I am conscious of nothing against myself; but I am not justified in this, but He who examines me is the Lord. (1 Cor. 4:4)

Comments further ?

Amen, we are of faith not unbelief.

Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[Studyman]

You never thought that that could be your problem?

It sure would be, if I were to adopt your practice of selecting some words and omitting others, or the philosophies which result in this practice. And even if I did engage in the same practice as you, does that justify you? Seems like a childish argument. "Well, you do it too"!!

What an analogy that is, an unzipped fly.

I used it because I always assume when a neighbor does something untoward, it isn't on purpose, just as I would assume that a man walking around with his fly unzipped, is not doing so on purpose. Telling a neighbor his fly is unzipped when his fly is unzipped is a kindness. But don't misunderstand me, I am in no way arguing against a man's right to walk around exposed or your right to engage in the cherry picking of other people words and promoting the resulting corruption of their message. You are free to do as you please. I simply wanted to point out what was there, in case you didn't know it.

Studyman you know brothers can get a complex sometimes like Elijah - "Lord, I'm the ONLY ONE left!"
Sometimes you're coming across with a tone like you're the only one left faithful to the Lord.

Well, when a person picks a word here or part of a sentence there as you clearly do, there is no limit to how many different "complexes" you could project onto another. But I can assure you that I have met, and personally know several men who don't engage in this tactic you employ with Scriptures, and other people's words. I'm confident there are many believers who don't cherry pick the words of others or the Words that God had written for their admonition.

You're not the only one left faithful who is being hunted down so they can get rid of you too.

LOL, Don't forget, I also accused you of implying that Jesus wasn't obedient to God, and that I was saying it was Paul's fault that "many" who come in Christ's Name twist his words. And now I'm telling you I am the only Faithful man alive on earth and they are after me.

Do you really believe all these things you are promoting?

No, I do not say or intend to communicate that the Son of God did not humble Himself.

I implore you to read my reply again, this time real slow, so that you might actually address what I actually said.

Thank you.

It was His obedience to the Father.

What passage would you point to to specifically say with such clarity that Jesus humbled Himself to keep the Law?

According to the Scriptures, the Jesus "of the Bible" Humbled Himself to obey God.


Is. 7: 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Psalms 45: 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Is. 53: 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Phil. 2: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Heb. 4: 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Heb. 5: 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And we have the Words of Jesus, that is, the Jesus of the Bible Himself, as well.

John 8: 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 15: 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

In your religion, would this be enough evidence Scripturally to say with "clarity", that Jesus humbled Himself to keep the Law (Of God)?

We do want to understand each other. And I take no delight to misinterpret someone's belief.
You're right that I did clip the sentence you wrote. I should have quoted you to the period.
Sorry.

Why should you have considered the whole sentence, and not just a select part of it? Because you can't understand the point being made, if you don't consider all the words written. This is just true.

I didn't point this out because of what you did to me, I am a nobody. I pointed this out because of what it did to you and "your understanding". I did it to show that when you engage in this tactic, it corrupts "you", and the message being promoted. Not just my message, at it is clearly shown. But most importantly, God's Message through His Son, and His Prophets and His Apostles.

That is the Point. That is how a man can be convinced that Jesus obeying God's Law was natural to Him, like the Law of Gravity. Which implies that Jesus wasn't a man like unto His Brethren. That God gave Him powers no other human was given, and then Glorified Him for doing what any God could easily do. This is another Jesus that doesn't exist in Scriptures.

 

[Studyman]

Yes, we generally agree I think. Notice also the above passage, the word conduct has been changed to conversation, but the context makes abundantly clear that the word is indeed "conduct". All instances of Paul saying 'conduct' have been changed to 'conversation'.
I believe strongly that Paul's words have been changed and twisted around on purpose to promote a false gospel.
The fullness of our faith is that faith without works is dead, being alone.

Faith shall avail you nothing, if it does not save you from your sins. John Wesley.

Well, I must say I am no fan of Wesley. But I am a fan of Paul and James. And I love your words here, and the point you make, which I believe was also the point James was making.

I think there is always a conversation engaged in before a man denies or succumbs to the desires of the flesh. The Story of Eve shows this, in my view.

If I'm a thief or transgress other commandments of God by my traditions, and I say I have Faith, but I continue to transgress God's commandments, is my faith not dead?

Eph. 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: (New man, Yes?) but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

James 1: 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Matt. 7: 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them "not", shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

James 2: 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

I believe Jesus confirms your understanding as well.

John 10: 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Great point, encouraging post. Thank you.

 

[HIM]

Yes, we generally agree I think. Notice also the above passage, the word conduct has been changed to conversation, but the context makes abundantly clear that the word is indeed "conduct". All instances of Paul saying 'conduct' have been changed to 'conversation'.
I believe strongly that Paul's words have been changed and twisted around on purpose to promote a false gospel.
The fullness of our faith is that faith without works is dead, being alone.

Hey there contratodo,
That text is probably the KJV and they haven't changed anything there for the most part. It is the English language that has changed,

Here is a citation from Webster's 1828 version.

CONVERSATION, n.
1. General course of manners; behavior; deportment; especially as it respects morals.
Let your conversation be as becometh the gospel. Phil 1.
Be ye holy in all manner of conversation. 1 Pet 1.
2. A keeping company; familiar intercourse; intimate fellowship or association; commerce in social life. Knowledge of men and manners is best acquired by conversation with the best company.
3. Intimate and familiar acquaintance; as a conversation with books, or other object.
4. Familiar discourse; general intercourse of sentiments; chat; unrestrained talk; opposed to a formal conference.
What I mentioned in conversation was not a new thought.
[This is now the most general use of the word.]

 

[oikonomia]

Nah, as was said. " I liked your post. But we were not sure about this translation."
Notice the key operative word "were",

God morning to you HIM. No, I did not leave out the extra "o".

I am happy you did find something you liked in that post.

Hmm.... not a fan.

Okay. But I like the Recovery Version. This little endorsement was made to the New Testament portion
by F. F. Bruce - to quote - (check other comments at Comments on the Recovery Version )

I have read with interest the copies of translations of New Testament epistles in the Recovery Version. This is a version which I had not previously met. The version seems to me to be an accurate and fairly literal rendering of the Greek. The user of this version will get a precise impression of what the sacred text says.

With all good wishes:
Yours Sincerely,
F.F. Bruce

It is God that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure... So we have a big issue with using I in respect to this life in Christ.

Narcissism runs rapid in the Church. Pride is a terrible thing

Yes, I tried to show this pride matter is tied up with the soul-life. The soul is though an organ (for lack of a better word) which
is created to be preserved and reflect God living in man.

With the denying of the soul-life the pride is dealt with.
And the organ useful to the Triune God - the soul "is preserved" sanctified and complete as it was meant to be by God.

Paul speaks of the soul-life "I" dying with Christ as it must.
Yes the soul also the "I" lives but Christ lives now within him.

We all Christians must go through the exact same process in which this pioneer passed through.
This is the mingling of us with God. This is God dispensing His life and nature and expression into His saints.

So very united is Paul with Jesus Christ as a normal overcoming Christian.
In Philippians we also see this mingling of Christ with Paul.

μάρτυς γάρ μού ἐστιν ὁ Θεός, ὡς ἐπιποθῶ πάντας ὑμᾶς ἐν σπλάγχνοις ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
For God is my witness how I long after you all in the inward parts of Christ Jesus. (Phil. 1:8)

Paul's inward parts are so one with those of Jesus Christ that he says they are "the inward parts of Christ".
This is the normal result of a human being dispensed into by the Triune God by a man who refused to "nullify the grace of God."
This is another expression of it is no longer the "I" alone with its pride, but the "I" live of Christ living in him.

I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. I do not nullify the grace of God; . . . (Gal. 2:20,21a)

It is through this kind of living the church which Christ said He would build will prevail against the attack of death.
This is the kind of church which will put Satan into the lake of fire. And he knows this in dread.

That's what this was,
"The God of Peace sanctifies us perfectly. And completes our Spirit, soul and Body. Preserving us blameless at our Lord Jesus' coming. " to that a big Amen

This translation eleminates the two instances of the conjunction "and" to one. And I am not sure why this is done.
My guess is that it assumes the dichotomous nature of man - soul and body. But the New Testament teaches a trichotimous man
spirit and soul and body.

The living and operative word of God is piercing even to the division within us of soul and spirit.

For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (Heb. 4:12)

If you'd like to examine the original -

Ζῶν γὰρ ὁ λόγος τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ ἐνεργὴς καὶ τομώτερος ὑπὲρ πᾶσαν μάχαιραν δίστομον καὶ διϊκνούμενος ἄχρι μερισμοῦ ψυχῆς τε καὶ πνεύματος, ἁρμῶν τε καὶ μυελῶν, καὶ κριτικὸς ἐνθυμήσεων καὶ ἐννοιῶν καρδίας,

And back to the narcissum matter. The regenerated Christian [edited typo] has and must utilize to the fullest his organic union with the Spirit Who is
God and his human spirit.

He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit (1 Cor. 6:17)

Part of our being is God. Part of our being is Christ. And part of our being is mingled with the divine Spirit in an organic union.
Excuse me if I skip down some through your reply. It was all very relevant.

Do you see the difference between your version and it?

Yes, I see an important difference.
"your Spirit, soul and body" I think is not literal enough because there are two joining and/s in the original.

ὑμῶν τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ ἡ ψυχὴ καὶ τὸ σῶμα
your spirit and soul and body

It is a critical difference. It is not a benigh one I hold.
It is as important and learning to let the convicting word of God discern us that we can tell "O, this is just me alone. But this now is Christ in me."

For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit . . . and of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Many times in my experience I am not too clear about my own intentions of the heart.
But the convicting word of God which is living and piercing illuminates to my conscience my true intentions.
And yes, they may expose some self love or some reluctance to deny the self.
Then I [edited] can follow my spirit and have Christ live in the "I" - overcoming. Praise the Lord.

The heart is a combination of the three parts of the soul with one part of the spirit.
But this will be too brief for now. And I suspect you've heard it before. I don't know.

The SOUL is composed of the MIND, the EMOTION, and the WILL.
The HEART is composed of the MIND, EMOTION, WILL plus the CONSCIENCE. The CONSCIENCE is in the spirit of man.

Three parts of man is the understanding the church better have.
All this to say, I would not endorse that translation of Spirit, soul and body as it too obscures the three parts.

I am aware some reputable English New Testaments have it.
Ie. Berean Standard Bible -your entire spirit, soul, and body
New King James - whole spirit, soul, and body
Contemporary English Version - your spirit, soul, and body

In this verse I would go with the Recovery Version as well as -
American Standard - your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire,
NASV - you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete,
Amplified - your spirit and soul and body be kept complete

I'll have to pick up futher reply latter.
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you HIM.

 

[oikonomia]

For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ.

In Him Was Life. And the life was the light of men.
Sing along John 1:4,5

 

[oikonomia]

It is appointed to man once to die and then judgement.

HIM if you could, could you tell me how this verse (Hebews 9:27) related to my
saying God's hands were not tied in perfecting us beyond the church age? Thanks.

And inasmuch as it is reserved for men to die once, and after this comes judgment,

We we were, I think, discussing 1 Thess. 5:23?

 

[oikonomia]

But if you don't believe the "LAW" of the Spirit of Life that was in the Jesus "of the Bible" was God's Law, what can I say.

After musing on this subject a few more days I decided that the analogy of the law of the Spirit of life in
Christ Jesus being like the law of gravity is actually pretty good.

The Spirit of divine like in many places in the Word is depected as flowing water.
And water flows because of gravity.

I believe flowing water is used to signify the Spirit of life because God's life within us
is so spontaneous and constantly moving in and though the believer who taps into his spirit. Jesus stood and cried on the last
day of the feast to the inwardly thirsty people -

If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.
But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified. (John 7:37b-39)

The one river of the Spirit becomes a number of rivers [plural] all flowing into different parts
of a person's being - rivers of living water is Jesus Christ here as the Spirit which was "not yet" before
His resurrection.

But water needs the pull of gravity to flow. So this Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has a law like gravity causing water to flow down.

There is a river whose streams gladden the city of God,
The holy place of the tabernacles of the Most High. (Psalm 46:4)

Let him take the water of life freely.