The mind set on the flesh

[zoidar]

You must be born again. John 3.

If we say repentance leads to the new birth and not the other way around it makes sense of Luke 13:2-5.

for with the heart [stone, or flesh?]a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
— Romans 10:10

You think we are regenerated unto believing and being saved when Rom 10:10 says we need to confess to be saved. You also have Rom 10:9 which says as you believe you must confess unto salvation. Solely believing does not save you, but believing and confessing Christ as your Lord saves. This is repentance.

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
— Romans 10:9

Which I don’t think you’ve actually shown from scripture, but I could be mistaken.

This is not in detail described in Scripture, but we get hints from passages about repentance.

 

[Hammster]

If we say repentance leads to the new birth and not the other way around it makes sense of Luke 13:2-5.

Not really. All Jesus is saying that unless you repent, you will suffer the same fate.

You think we are regenerated unto believing and being saved when Rom 10:10 says we need to confess to be saved. You also have Rom 10:9 which says as you believe you must confess unto salvation. Solely believing does not save you, but believing and confessing Christ as your Lord saves. This is repentance.

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
— Romans 10:9

Same problem. Which heart? Stone or flesh?

It seems that you think “saved” is this one big thing. It’s not, though. Paul says earlier that we are justified by faith. You could say that justified is being saved. So if you replace “saved” with “justified” (since we are talking about faith), he is saying that if you believe (have faith) in your heart, you will be made righteous.

This is not in detail described in Scripture, but we get hints from passages about repentance.

There’s lots of talk of repentance. But I don’t know if there’s much about the natural man being “convicted”. Remember, the natural man resists the gospel.

 

[zoidar]

Not really. All Jesus is saying that unless you repent, you will suffer the same fate.

Same problem. Which heart? Stone or flesh?

It seems that you think “saved” is this one big thing. It’s not, though. Paul says earlier that we are justified by faith. You could say that justified is being saved. So if you replace “saved” with “justified” (since we are talking about faith), he is saying that if you believe (have faith) in your heart, you will be made righteous.

Yes, I do believe salvation is this one event. That is how it was for me. I confessed and got born again/saved. You are given the new heart the instant you receive salvation and that is through acting on the message. Until then you have your old heart. Call it a heart of stone if you like.

There’s lots of talk of repentance. But I don’t know if there’s much about the natural man being “convicted”. Remember, the natural man resists the gospel.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, I do believe salvation is this one event. That is how it was for me. I confessed and got born again/saved. You are given the new heart the instant you receive salvation and that is through acting on the message. Until then you have your old heart. Call it a heart of stone if you like.

Just so I understand, you were predestined, elected, called, regenerated, repented, justified, adopted, sanctified, and glorified, all at once?

 

[zoidar]

Just so I understand, you were predestined, elected, called, regenerated, repented, justified, adopted, sanctified, and glorified, all at once?

I wouldn't say that. Predestination and election is another topic. So is sanctification and glorification. Adoption, regeneration, justification, being born again happens all at once, as I see it.

 

[Hammster]

I wouldn't say that. Predestination and election is another topic. So is sanctification and glorification. Adoption, regeneration, justification, being born again happens all at once, as I see it.

Why aren’t predestination and election part of salvation

 

[zoidar]

Why aren’t predestination and election part of salvation

Maybe we are elected and predestined the moment we are saved. I'm just not sure.

 

[Hammster]

Maybe we are elected and predestined the moment we are saved. I'm just not sure.

That doesn’t really make sense. You would be predestined after you choose God. And God would elect you after you elect Him.

 

[zoidar]

That doesn’t really make sense. You would be predestined after you choose God. And God would elect you after you elect Him.

You can not elect God. You can ask God for forgiveness and then it's up to God if He wants to choose you and forgive you.

 

[Hammster]

You can not elect God. You can ask God for forgiveness and then it's up to God if He wants to choose you and forgive you.

Are you saying that you can’t choose God?

 

[zoidar]

Are you saying that you can’t choose God?

You can choose to ask God for mercy. You can not choose to become a child of God. Becoming a child of God is a gift from God, not something you can choose.

 

[Hammster]

You can choose to ask God for mercy. You can not choose to become a child of God. Becoming a child of God is a gift from God, not something you can choose.

Choosing is just making a choice. So in your theology, you choose God, and then He decides if He’ll choose you.

 

[zoidar]

Choosing is just making a choice. So in your theology, you choose God, and then He decides if He’ll choose you.

You cannot choose God, you can only choose to give your life to God. You cannot choose Him as Lord. You can only ask Him to be your Lord. You can choose to put your money on Him, so to speak, but you don't have the power to make Him your God. Then He will decide if He will receive you. If your repentance is genuine God will always receive you as His child, because God is good.

Maybe it's only semantics, but choosing God doesn't sound quite right to me. Choosing to make a decision for God sounds more right. So:

"You make a genuine decision for God, and then He decides if He’ll choose you ... and He will." This is my view.

 

[Hammster]

You cannot choose God, you can only choose to give your life to God. You cannot choose Him as Lord. You can only ask Him to be your Lord. You can choose to put your money on Him, so to speak, but you don't have the power to make Him your God. Then He will decide if He will receive you. If your repentance is genuine God will always receive you as His child, because God is good.

Maybe it's only semantics, but choosing God doesn't sound quite right to me. Choosing to make a decision for God sounds more right. So:

"You make a genuine decision for God, and then He decides if He’ll choose you ... and He will." This is my view.

Two synonyms of decide are choose and elect. You are making a distinction without a difference. So if God doesn’t choose to choose you until after you choose to decide to be for Him, then His will is subservient to your will. God cannot choose to change someone’s heart so that they will willingly follow Him. They must change first, and then He will change them.

 

[zoidar]

Two synonyms of decide are choose and elect. You are making a distinction without a difference. So if God doesn’t choose to choose you until after you choose to decide to be for Him, then His will is subservient to your will.

If I choose to ask you for forgiveness and you choose to forgive me or if ask you if I can come along to Mexico and you choose to say "yes", is then your will subservient to my will? It is God who wants us to choose first, doesn't that show His will is not subservient to ours?

God cannot choose to change someone’s heart so that they will willingly follow Him. They must change first, and then He will change them.

Well, God can, but wants us to repent first to receive sonship. But the first "change", the conviction is also a work of God.

 

[stevevw]

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
— Romans 8:5-8

When it comes to regeneration, there are two arguments. Or at least two that I know of. One is that we believe, and then are regenerated, and the other is that we are regenerated and then believe. I think the above passage makes a clear argument that we cannot believe prior to be regenerated. The reason is that faith or belief is something that pleases God. Being obedient to Christ’s command is something that pleases God. I also think that believing the gospel and being obedient or things that must be done in the spirit and not in the flesh. And the reason is, as the above passage says, we cannot please God in the flesh.

If the only way to pleaseGod is to be in the Spirit, then the argument would be that one must be in the Spirit before he or she can be obedient to Christ’s command to believe and repent.

I think coming to believe and living in the spirit and not the flesh is something that happens gradually or in stages. Its a reasserting and recommitment over and over again because of the battle between the flesh and the spirit nature.

We may be living in the flesh and hear the Gospel but resist God and this may go on for some time. But we come to a point where we are humbled like the lost son and give ourselves over to God. But this doesn't mean the flesh has been defeated in us as its part of our fallen nature.

Its a constant wrestle between flesh and spirit and we gradually come to give a little more over as we grow in God or allow God to remake us in the spirit. Often our faith is tested but that is what makes us stronger. We are continually peeling off the flesh and putting on Gods spirit aiming to be more Christ like.

When we accept Christ into our hearts we become more God conscious and Gods word speaks to us. So we have birthed in us Gods spirit that cannot live with in in us so we are continually remined of our sinful ways, our weak fleshly desires while being strengthened to overcome these temptations when handing ourselves over to God.

God continues to mold us in the spirit as we let go and let God into every area of our lives. Some areas may be harder than others and each person will be different. Some issues may take a lot to let go of. But so long as we keep coming back to God we will become more like Christ.

 

[Hammster]

If I choose to ask you for forgiveness and you choose to forgive me or if ask you if I can come along to Mexico and you choose to say "yes", is then your will subservient to my will? It is God who wants us to choose first, doesn't that show His will is not subservient to ours?

I guess I was mistaken. When you said “decision for God”, I took it to mean submitting your life to Him, not just asking Him for something.

Well, God can, but wants us to repent first to receive sonship. But the first "change", the conviction is also a work of God.

No, that’s not how sonship works. That’s not how nature birth works, or adoption. I have three natural children, and two adopted. I can guarantee you none of them asked to be my kid.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
— John 1:12-13

 

[Hammster]

I think coming to believe and living in the spirit and not the flesh is something that happens gradually or in stages. Its a reasserting and recommitment over and over again because of the battle between the flesh and the spirit nature.

We may be living in the flesh and hear the Gospel but resist God and this may go on for some time. But we come to a point where we are humbled like the lost son and give ourselves over to God. But this doesn't mean the flesh has been defeated in us as its part of our fallen nature.

Its a constant wrestle between flesh and spirit and we gradually come to give a little more over as we grow in God or allow God to remake us in the spirit. Often our faith is tested but that is what makes us stronger. We are continually peeling off the flesh and putting on Gods spirit aiming to be more Christ like.

When we accept Christ into our hearts we become more God conscious and Gods word speaks to us. So we have birthed in us Gods spirit that cannot live with in in us so we are continually remined of our sinful ways, our weak fleshly desires while being strengthened to overcome these temptations when handing ourselves over to God.

God continues to mold us in the spirit as we let go and let God into every area of our lives. Some areas may be harder than others and each person will be different. Some issues may take a lot to let go of. But so long as we keep coming back to God we will become more like Christ.

I have a lot of questions about this post, but I’ll stick to the topic at hand. Does the unbeliever have this struggle, or just the believer?

 

[zoidar]

I guess I was mistaken. When you said “decision for God”, I took it to mean submitting your life to Him, not just asking Him for something.

You are right there is a difference. I'm not completely sure what submitting to God entails. I would put it like this: You plead to God wanting to belong to him, hand over yourself willing to be His servant, then God gives you His Spirit, by whom you submit your whole life and you become the servant of God you have promised to be.

Maybe a marriage is a better picture? If I choose to propose to my girlfriend and she chooses to accept my proposal, is then her will subservient to my will?

No, that’s not how sonship works. That’s not how nature birth works, or adoption. I have three natural children, and two adopted. I can guarantee you none of them asked to be my kid.

It does not work the same way with God's children as with our earthly children. What you say is neither proving or disproving anything. Marriage between husband and wife is the better picture IMO.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
— John 1:12-13

The word "even" is not in the Greek.

As many as received Him, He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. In other words those who receive Him are those who believe in His name. And they are indeed born again of God the Holy Spirit as they receive Him, believe in His name.

 

[Hammster]

You are right there is a difference. I'm not completely sure what submitting to God entails. I would put it like this: You plead to God wanting to belong to him, hand over yourself willing to be His servant, then God gives you His Spirit, by whom you submit your whole life and you become the servant of God you have promised to be.

Maybe a marriage is a better picture? If I choose to propose to my girlfriend and she chooses to accept my proposal, is then her will subservient to my will?

Well, in a sense. The problem here is that she’s not the Almighty Creator. When I say subservient, I mean that God cannot act upon His own will to save whoever He wants. He has to wait to see if you choose Him first before He can decide to choose you.

It does not work the same way with God's children as with our earthly children. What you say is neither proving or disproving anything. Marriage between husband and wife is the better picture IMO.

There’s a reason that these pictures are given in scripture. All of these illustrations correspond to things that the audience was familiar with. And the only illustrations we are given in scripture about marriage have to do with the church and Christ. So children as an example does work. When Jesus said you must be born again, it was a very specific picture. People understood how birth worked, so they would all understand the picture of being born again.

The word "even" is not in the Greek.

As many as received Him, He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. In other words those who receive Him are those who believe in His name. And they are indeed born again of God the Holy Spirit as they receive Him, believe in His name.

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
— John 1:13

It looks like you are ignoring this part.

Note: it doesn’t say they were born again as they received Him.