The history of how Sunday worship came about.

BukiRob

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Since the scriptures are clear that no other day was made as the day of worship except the seventh day, and the Commandments show this with unblinking clarity to Christians, what does history show. If Christians look through all these things and become fully aware that Sunday worship is not ordained by God or anywhere in the Bible or given by Christ or the apostles, and with full knowledge continue to transgress what is shown to them from scripture, will God wink at it, lets look at scripture......

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

It shows that God allows for mankind's ignorance, but we have many scholars who have studied this issue and so Christians have become aware of the history of Sunday worship. How Sunday was the established day of pagan festival, which later, when these pagans professed Christianity, they gradually brought into the early churchm the practice of the pagan festivals with them into the church, and the bishops looked the other way as long as they had 'converts' to show they were more influential or had more numbers than other bishops.

Now from scripture we see the people of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, including Jesus Christ Himself, observed the Sabbath. We see Jesus Christ is “Lord even of the Sabbath day” as the Creator. Jesus said, “For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.” Matthew 12:8. By identifying Himself as “Lord even of the Sabbath day,” Jesus of was showing that He was the One who originally created Earth in six days, and rested on the seventh day. And the New Testament makes clear that Jesus is the Creator...

"All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that has been made." John 1:3

"He [Jesus] was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not". John 1:10

"God, who created all things by Jesus Christ." Eph. 3:9

"For by Him [Jesus] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." Col. 1:16

So scripture makes clear Jesus Christ is our Creator and also gave us the Sabbath for man not just the Jews.

"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:" Mark 2:27

Not only did Jesus create the Sabbath but He makes clear it was the seventh day and Holy...
"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 20:11

"And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning." Exodus 16:23

Now you can check the scriptures and it will make clear the Sabbath is on Saturday, while Sunday is "the first day of the week". No where in the Bible, including after Christ's resurrection, will you find people observing the first day of the week, Sunday, as a replacement for the Sabbath.

So if Christians, knowing that Sunday is not the Sabbath, and knowing the Commandments show what is transgression or iniquity/sin, and clearly show what day is the Sabbath, continue to transgress what God commands, what will happen when Christ comes.
Sabbath was establishe at creation. It predates Torah and the abandonment of it is the pagan roots of Rome.
 
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DamianWarS

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Since the scriptures are clear that no other day was made as the day of worship except the seventh day, and the Commandments show this with unblinking clarity to Christians, what does history show. If Christians look through all these things and become fully aware that Sunday worship is not ordained by God or anywhere in the Bible or given by Christ or the apostles, and with full knowledge continue to transgress what is shown to them from scripture, will God wink at it, lets look at scripture......
worship towards God should always been seen as ordained regardless of which day of the week it's on. I think you're argument is about is about keeping the Sabbath day holy and not conflating that with any other day.

The 4th commandment/7 day is a salvation message. For example, in the 4th commandment, it is not just yourself that's commanded to rest but all those in our household including servants and animals. based on this context the commandment seems to be given to the heads of the household who then to keep that commandment to all those under their care. This works on all levels but is most clear at the lowest level being the animals. Animals have no authority to take the day of work as they cannot reason what is good or bad, holy or not, etc.... If their master wishes them to work, then they have no choice in the matter so they need to be given rest in order to have rest. That alone is a powerful salvation metaphor as we cannot take salvation for ourselves and it must be given to us, this points to a deeper value in the 4th commandment that is echoed through the actions.

The 4th commandment explicitly points back to the 7th day of creation and it is fundamental purpose so by looking at the 7th day of creation we can gain insight to the meaning of the 4th commandment. Well creation is also a salvation metaphor. the world starts in darkness and chaos, light is spoken into starting a work of God then when complete ushers in his rest. That alone gives me chills and it's hard not to deny the spiritual implications of the text. There is alot going on in the creation account but looking at the 7th day alone it is the completion of creation. no work is happening not because God is tired, which is an anti-thesitic concept, but because God is finishing his work that it users in this day of completion.... again another powerful salvation concept. (James 1:4 and Phil 1:6 comes to mind). Day 7 is the antithesis to before day 1 with constants like dark/light, empty/full, incomplete/complete, unformed/formed, chaos/rest, etc... these are all very easily understood as spiritual concepts and we could add NT compliments to the list of lost/found, unsaved/saved, perish/eternal life, etc... The work in us is even references as a "new creation" (2 cor 5:17) which alone is an allusion to creation itself as well as 2 cor 4:6 which explicitly reveals the creation account as a spiritual metaphor (like as if we had to be told that light and darkness are more than light and darkness)

very clearly the creation account which is the bedrock of the 4th commandment is far greater than superficial days of the week. The law echoes this message by design but the message ultimately is of Christ's and that message itself is more righteous than the law. Christ tells us that doing good on the Sabbath is lawful and he uses an example of pulling sheep out of pits (Mat 12). I mean do we really have to spell it out that sheep really are not sheep? there are countless lost and or fallen sheep that are in need of rescuing and Christ tells us it is lawful to rescue them on the Sabbath. So is it lawful to ignore fallen sheep on the Sabbath? That's something you will have to decide but for me, there is a lawful work to be done, and rather than arguing about what day of the week is more holy why not just do Christ's work? Is not salvation the ultimate message of the 4th? I can't think of a better way of keeping it holy.
 
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Cribstyl

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Since the scriptures are clear that no other day was made as the day of worship except the seventh day, and the Commandments show this with unblinking clarity to Christians, what does history show. If Christians look through all these things and become fully aware that Sunday worship is not ordained by God or anywhere in the Bible or given by Christ or the apostles, and with full knowledge continue to transgress what is shown to them from scripture, will God wink at it, lets look at scripture......
These are false assumptions. Here is why.
Because God rested on the seventh day in creation, the seventh day was made a day of rest for the Children of Israel not a day of worship. You cannot and will not show 1 scripture; that God declared the seventh day as the only day to worship.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

It shows that God allows for mankind's ignorance, but we have many scholars who have studied this issue and so Christians have become aware of the history of Sunday worship. How Sunday was the established day of pagan festival, which later, when these pagans professed Christianity, they gradually brought into the early churchm the practice of the pagan festivals with them into the church, and the bishops looked the other way as long as they had 'converts' to show they were more influential or had more numbers than other bishops.

Now from scripture we see the people of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, including Jesus Christ Himself, observed the Sabbath. We see Jesus Christ is “Lord even of the Sabbath day” as the Creator. Jesus said, “For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.” Matthew 12:8. By identifying Himself as “Lord even of the Sabbath day,” Jesus of was showing that He was the One who originally created Earth in six days, and rested on the seventh day. And the New Testament makes clear that Jesus is the Creator...

"All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that has been made." John 1:3

"He [Jesus] was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not". John 1:10

"God, who created all things by Jesus Christ." Eph. 3:9

"For by Him [Jesus] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." Col. 1:16

So scripture makes clear Jesus Christ is our Creator and also gave us the Sabbath for man not just the Jews.

"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:" Mark 2:27

Not only did Jesus create the Sabbath but He makes clear it was the seventh day and Holy...
"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 20:11

"And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning." Exodus 16:23

Now you can check the scriptures and it will make clear the Sabbath is on Saturday, while Sunday is "the first day of the week". No where in the Bible, including after Christ's resurrection, will you find people observing the first day of the week, Sunday, as a replacement for the Sabbath.

So if Christians, knowing that Sunday is not the Sabbath, and knowing the Commandments show what is transgression or iniquity/sin, and clearly show what day is the Sabbath, continue to transgress what God commands, what will happen when Christ comes.
Unrelated to the question about worship days.
 
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reddogs

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Your wrong in your assertions I will quote from something I wrote a few months ago.



1) Sunday is "the Lord's Day" (colloquially speaking), because this has been the unanimous testimony of Christianity for nearly 2000 years, that Christ rose from the dead on the day after the Sabath, aka Sunday. And this fact is further confirmed by a few passages in the New Testament itself, speaking of the worship on the Lord's Day an idiom unique to this day, and not used to describe the Jewish Sabbath.


2) Not only is the following true but it is foreshadowed in Scripture in Old Testament passages regarding the 8th day and Pentecost in Judaism, where the 8th day especially is symbolic of new beginnings (use link or copy and paste the following reference into a search engine for more info).
Parasha Shemini (Eighth): New Beginnings | Messianic Bible



3) Groups that preach or have preached against Sunday as "The day of the Beast", "coming from paganism" etc. do so wrongly. Those claims were made by people who did not study Church history etc. and are wrong and ignorant of the facts. I actually believe they qualify as false witness according to the Biblical definition.


4A) Groups that proclaim point 3 as part of a Revelation I believe do so based on the Spirit of anti-Christ. 1 John 4:1 tells us to test the Spirits and to reject one's that contradict the Received Faith, in the case of that passage it was the Docetic message that Jesus did not come in bodily form. Groups that preach point 3 likewise contradict the unanimous testimony of the Church for the last 2000 years. As one person I read phrased it they take something that is or should be received with joy and make it Demonic! Is this not the very work of the Spirit of the Antichrist? I think it is when you compare it similar statements Jesus said against the Pharisees.

4B) The above point is not just metaphorically true, but even literally true. In studying the historic/traditional doctrines of X from her writings you get into many quotes where the Theology being preached is not orthodox Christian Trinitarian but quotes implying numerous heretical understandings and teachings concerning the nature of the Trinity etc.


5) Extra Points from Scripture
Groups that preach on point 3) are ignorant of other points of doctrine most notably things like the original context of “Binding and Loosening” in the Great Commission and it’s original Jewish Context.


BINDING AND LOOSING - JewishEncyclopedia.com

They also do not seem to appreciate the Conciliar nature of the Church, in passages like Acts 15. Or even other considerations that would affect the ancient Christians in their pattern of worship (meeting together as One Body in Christ) etc.


6) Groups that do point 3) have their own unique doctrines that come via Revelations that are not orthodox and are new innovations.


7) The leaders of these groups are unaccountable and have other questionable problems from scripture especially concerning meeting the qualifications of "being a prophet", as well as a teacher in the Church according to the words of saint Paul in his epistles.
a) Prophesying things that don't come to pass is disqualifying
b) Head Covering while prophesying never seen a picture of X have her hair covered in church!
c) The ministry of women in the Church according to saint Paul is very limited when it comes to public ministry and worship.


8 ) Groups that preach point 3 work against the Biblical concept of Shalom. They attempt to undermine a person’s Faith in order to proselytize them towards their sect. They do their very best to instill anxiety into their victims!


9) They are the very essence of “Wolves in Sheep’s” clothing that the Bible warns us of. They do so in two ways

A) posing as Christian brothers who then use a Bait and Switch tactic for point 8.

B) the Biblical term “Wolf in Sheep’s clothing” is an allusion to the prophetic mantel of the prophet that was from sheep’s skin. These people get their teaching from a “prophet” who claimed Revelations from God.



10) Back to point 1) (Sunday as Lord's Day)

A) The fact we are called "to be witnesses" of Christ is a big one. That is where we get the term martyr for one who suffers or dies for Christ. But this is a also a reminder of the Apostolic preaching and teaching around this topic.


B) The history of why Gospels came into existence. The Gospel of Matthew came, for instance into existence (according to Papias) when the apostles were leaving Jerusalem, they did so to leave behind a permeant witness, since they left that city because persecution was becoming to much and forced them to relocate. Until this time, the Christian message came purely by preaching to the local area!


Bonus point 11
Ignorance of Biblical idiom, like trying to make Saturday the Lord’s day, when the Bible uses terms like rest and sleep in reference to death and the grave, as well as the Sabath. If Christ had been raised on the Saturday it would go against an established Biblical theme of receiving new life and being a new creation! Besides this you have other Biblical themes like the New Wine Skin, and believers and the Church being a new creation etc. as mentioned on the point about the 8th day and Pentecost.


Yes, the very early Christians did worship primarily on the Sabbath, but the reasons for this are obvious Christianity was riding the coattails of Judaism. At the time of Nero etc. it was considered a Jewish sect, but Christian persecution soon began to changed things when the Christians were driven underground, kicked out of the temple and the Synagogues etc. Soon future Christians who were not born with Jewish ancestry began to realize their identity was primarily in Christ and therefore elected to worship on the day he rose from the dead and made their salvation possible (This and all the other stuff mentioned in point 5).
Well Sunday worship has an origin, but it may not be one you like..

"Sun worship characterized many of the early religions. In the Old World it was important in ancient cultures, such as those of Babylon, Egypt, Persia, North India, Greece, Rome....
Connected with sun worship, the observance of the first day of the week, the sun-day, played an important role in the pagan world. The North British Review called Sunday "The wild solar holiday of all times," and Constantine, in his famous Sunday edict, styled it "the venerable day of the sun."

Babylonians
Bel, the sun-god, whose proper name was Marduk, was the patrol god of the Babylonians. To him they dedicated the first day of the week. Their calendar was adjusted in such a way that the first day of every month was also the first day of the week.

"It is clear that the first day of every month was originally a day of rest and fasting."--Langdon, Babylonian Menlogies and Semitic Calendars, p. 86.

Egyptians
In ancient Egypt the sun-cult originated at Heliopolis. The early sun-god of the ancient Egyptians was Re, and later Osiris, who came to be also the god of the dead and of the resurrection.

"Sunday (day of the sun) as the name of the first day of the week is derived from Egyptian astrology." --Catholic Encyclopedia, Art. Sunday.


Medo-Persian
"Each day in the week, the planet to which the day was sacred was invoked in a fixed spot in the crypt; and Sunday, over which the sun presided, was especially holy." --Cumont, The Mysteries of Mithra, p. 167.

Indians
Among the Hindus, every Sunday was a holy day. One author writes:

"The different days enjoy degrees of veneration according to certain qualities which [the Hindus] attribute to [the days of the week]. They distinguish, for example, the Sunday, because it is the day of the sun and the beginning of the week." --Albiruni's India, II, p. 185.

Koreans
"Buddha is reported to have been of solar descent, as were the Incas of Peru and are the present royal house of Japan (whose ancestress is stated to have been the sun-goddess Amaterasu)." --E. Royston Pike, Encyclopecia of Religion, Art. Sun Worship.

Germans
"The most ancient Germans being pagans, and having appropriated their first day of the week to the peculiar adoration to the sun, whereof, that day doth yet in our English tongue retain the name of Sunday." --Verstegan, Antiquities, p. 10.

Greeks
"At Sparta on the first day of every month the king made a sacrificial offering to Apollon [or Appollo], the sun-god, and the same practice was carried on at Athens." --Cook, Zeus, II, p. 237.

Romans
"The first day of the week was the Mithraic Sunday before it was the Christian, and December 25 was Mithra's birthday." --E. Royston Pike, Encyclopedia of Religion, Art. Mithraism.

Mithraism and Christianism
The popular worship of Mithra [the "Invincible Sun-god"] became so pre-eminent in the Roman Empire in the days of Constantine, that he decreed "The Venerable Day of the Sun" to be the weekly rest day of the Empire.

One authority points out the influence of Mithraism on Christianity, saying:

"It [Mithraism] had so much acceptance that it was able to impose on the Christian world its own Sun-day in place of the Sabbath, its Sun's birthday, 25th December, as the birthday of Jesus." --G. Murray, Christianity in the Light of Modern Knowledge, pp. 73, 74.

Still another author says: "The early Christians had at first adopted the Jewish seven-day week, with its numbered week days, but by the close of the third century A.D. this began to give way to the planetary week; and in the fourth and fifth centuries the pagan designations became generally accepted in the western half of Christendom.

...During these same centuries the spread of Oriental solar worships, especially that of Mithra, in the Roman world, had already led to the substitution by the pagans of dies Solis (Sun-day) for dies Saturni (Saturday), as the first day of the planetary week...Thus gradually a pagan institution was engrafted on Christianity." --Hutton Webster, Rest Days, pp. 220, 221.

Contrary to popular belief, there is not the slightest indication in the Bible that Sunday observance may have originated with Christ or the apostles." THE ORIGIN OF SUNDAY OBSERVANCE
 
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reddogs

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So a bunch of claims just copied from a random website, notably none of it with any proof given at all. The only argument appears to be "well they had similar names, so they must have been taken from the pagan deities!" which is rather weak.

There are, indeed, things that seem to be outright errors. It claims Aphrodite became "St. Aphrodite" and how they were all a "repentant harlot." The only matches could find for a "St. Aphrodite" were this (who was one of forty different virgin martyrs, a far cry from a "repetant harlot") and St. Aphrodosius who was not a "repentant harlot" either, but rather a bishop. If there is some actual St. Aphrodite that can be in any way plausibly linked to the actual Aphrodite, or at the very least was in fact a "repentant harlot", I can't find it offhand.

Also, it's hard to take an something seriously if it's so clueless it claims "Mardi Gras" means "Great Mars." As even the slightest bit of research will instantly show, Mardi Gras is a French term that means Fat Tuesday. If it can't get something as basic as that right, why should I have any confidence in the rest of its claims?

This also seems to be straying rather far from the original subject of this topic, and for that matter the subject of this subforum.



There is no pages 50-51 of "St. Valentine, Cupid, and Jesus Christ by Gary Petty" because it's an online article. The quote comes from that article quoting pages 50-51 of Robert Myers's "Celebrations: The Complete Book of American Holidays" which said article cites several times.

The problem with this claim of the customs of St. Valentine's Day tracing back to Lupercalia is that, as far as I can tell, St. Valentine's Day had no actual connection with romance until the 14th century when Geoffrey Chaucer started advocating it (oddly, Petty's article implicitly admits this, but the problem it has for his thesis is glossed over). It was only after that we started to see the modern-day customs. So even if Valentine's Day customs did have commonalities with Lupercalia (which itself seems dubious, many of the supposed "connections" seem made up and no one has ever been able to point to an actual primary source), there's simply far too great of a gap between them for Lupercalia to be any kind of origin, and is therefore a simple coincidence at most.

Incidentally, there is a response to Gary Petty's article at Is Valentines Day the Lupercalia? (the blog post itself is a general response to claims of Lupercalia/Valentine's Day connection, but there is a direct response to Petty's article in the comments)



Patricia Monaghan wrote several books with "Goddesses and Heroines" in the title (Encyclopedia of Goddesses and Heroines, Book of Goddesses and Heroines, New Book of Goddesses and Heroines). Note that it's Goddesses and Heroines, not Goddess and Heroines. The fact it doesn't tell us the full title, and the fact it gets even the partial title wrong, shows that this citation has not been verified but is simply copied. Still, I did consult Book of Goddesses and Heroines (I don't know if it's in the New Book of Goddesses and Heroines) and it's there--though not the first sentence, which even in the web page you copied this off of did not attribute to the work, but that distinction was removed when you copied it.

Unlike the other ones cited, the possibility of the goddess Brigid having aspects of her transferred to St. Brigid is, while not certain, still highly plausible. Nevertheless, it's not certain. I did find an interesting analysis here. I do note, however, that (from what I can tell) the main sources about the goddess Brigid come from several centuries after the accounts of St. Brigid, making me wonder if any similarities could be explained by going in the other direction, with ideas of St. Brigid being applied to the goddess.



While it is possible more evidence is given in the book cited, as presented here it is simply an assertion without evidence. Apart from the names, there seems to be very little these saints have in common with the deities Bacchus/Dionysus (St. Bacchus was supposedly a Roman soldier who converted to Christianity and then was persecuted and killed when him being a Christian was discovered; this has no relation whatsoever to a god of wine and fertility), and the names can be simply explained by the fact that, yes, sometimes actual people are named after a god or goddess.



First, I find no matches for any "World Religions by David Terrell" in WorldCat, so I am curious as to what this source you are citing is. Can you provide this information for us?

The only David Terrell I can find information on that seems relevant is a tent-revival preacher who apparently turned out to have fathered children with a whole bunch of women other than his wife (at least according to A Prophet and a Liar). If this is the person in question, they hardly seem to be someone worth appealing to with this. If it is a different David Terrell, then who is it and why should I take them seriously?



One can find this book here:

A search indicates zero instances of Isis, zero instances of Osiris, zero instances of Fortuna, zero instances of Semiramis, and zero instances of Madonna. A search for Nimrod and Jupiter turn up results, but not in anything resembling the quote. Can you show us where in the book it is?



Michael Howard was a "Luciferian", sort of an offshoot of Wicca. I question how good of a source he is. Especially considering the fact hat, if you look at the book, it offers no citation or evidence for this claim.


While it is good you admit where you're copying things from (though some of the citations you have offered do not seem to be from any of those), these sources are dubious. The first one was done by an anonymous person that's just a bunch of copied and pasted citations (many of very questionable worth). The second at least is by a clear person and offers arguments but they come up rather short and (again, there is a direct response to it in the comments section of Is Valentines Day the Lupercalia? though the main article, while not directly against it, seems to bring up some very valid points). The last one is not even actually online anymore, but I was able to access it via an archive and it appears to be an anonymous website that makes a bunch of claims without offering evidence for it.
Not sure what more proof you would want...
 
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JSRG

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Not sure what more proof you would want...
The post you are replying to is from almost a year ago. When I originally posted it, you replied to... say nothing at all, really. And now you're responding again after a year to... say nothing at all.

But as to what proof I would want... I was fairly clear about the deficiencies of the claims you were making. I explained in the post you are replying to how you lacked proof. Explaining to you would be nothing more than just repeating what I said in that post. But as a summary form, you were just copying claims from sites that generally didn't offer citations for its claims and in some cases made claims that were clearly false, giving additional reason to be distrustful of their claims made without evidence. I further pointed out problems in the cases where they or you actually were offering citations, like citing works that seem to not exist or claiming there's a quote from a work that doesn't actually have the quote (I literally gave you a link to where you can read the work in question and asked you to show me where it was, and you gave no answer).
 
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JSRG

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Well Sunday worship has an origin, but it may not be one you like..

"Sun worship characterized many of the early religions. In the Old World it was important in ancient cultures, such as those of Babylon, Egypt, Persia, North India, Greece, Rome....
Connected with sun worship, the observance of the first day of the week, the sun-day, played an important role in the pagan world. The North British Review called Sunday "The wild solar holiday of all times," and Constantine, in his famous Sunday edict, styled it "the venerable day of the sun."

I didn't reply to this post when it was originally done, but when you later re-posted all of this in another topic I did respond to it. As you bumped this topic again, I think I'll respond here with the points I did there for people who may not have seen the response there (this will, however, be a bit updated with some additional information).

As is often the case for you, though, the post is just a bunch of quotes you copied and pasted from someone else without apparently doing any verification of any of the quotes offered.

Anyway, the claim being made here is that "observance of the first day of the week, the sun-day, played an important role in the pagan world" which is supposedly what is going to be proved by the subsequent examples. Let us look at them.

Babylonians
Bel, the sun-god, whose proper name was Marduk, was the patrol god of the Babylonians. To him they dedicated the first day of the week. Their calendar was adjusted in such a way that the first day of every month was also the first day of the week.

"It is clear that the first day of every month was originally a day of rest and fasting."--Langdon, Babylonian Menlogies and Semitic Calendars, p. 86.

This declares that the first day of the week was dedicated to Bel/Marduk and the calendar was adjusted so the first day of every month was also the first day of the week, the latter of which is necessary for this to have any semblance to Sunday worship, because obviously the first day of the month isn't the same as the first day of the week. But this claim is made without any evidence. The quote you offer says nothing about it. I don't think the book being cited says it either; certainly, the page being cited doesn't. Your already tenuous claim this has anything to do with Sunday worship in Christianity collapses completely without the first day of the month also being the first day of the week, yet you offer no evidence for it.

Things get even worse, because your quote isn't the full sentence. The full sentence reads: "It is clear that the first day of the month was originally a day of rest and fasting: so were days 7, 9, 14, 19, 21, 28, 29, 30." So even if we suppose that the first day of the month was always the first day of the week (which again you cited no evidence for), it's only one of nine days of the month to do have the rest/fasting! Not evidence of Sunday worship.

Egyptians
In ancient Egypt the sun-cult originated at Heliopolis. The early sun-god of the ancient Egyptians was Re, and later Osiris, who came to be also the god of the dead and of the resurrection.

"Sunday (day of the sun) as the name of the first day of the week is derived from Egyptian astrology." --Catholic Encyclopedia, Art. Sunday.

There's an interesting sleight of hand here; it says the name Sunday came from Egyptian astrology, then tries to associate that with Ra, even though... no evidence is actually given that Sunday was of particular importance to the Egyptians, or even that Ra worship had any association with Sunday.

Medo-Persian
"Each day in the week, the planet to which the day was sacred was invoked in a fixed spot in the crypt; and Sunday, over which the sun presided, was especially holy." --Cumont, The Mysteries of Mithra, p. 167.

The issues with here are a bit complex. So, The Mysteris of Mithra is a work by Franz Cumont about Mithraism written over a century ago. There is some good information in it, but it isn't without its issues, such as some parts of it being based far more on Cumont's own speculations than actual evidence. But for a good while, Cumont was basically seen as the authority on Mithraism and thus his claims, even the speculative ones, were trusted and repeated by many. Mithraic scholarship has since moved on from him and some of his ideas rejected, but even the rejected ones are still repeated by people.

For example, Cumont claimed that December 25 was the birthday of Mithra, which led to a lot of people repeating this claim, and one you can still find today. But as Roger Pearse demonstrates here, Cumont doesn't really offer evidence for this other than speculation.

Still, what do later Mithra scholars say? Looking at a few works more up to date by actual Mithraic scholars, I don't see them accepting this.

The proceedings of the first annual conference of Mithraic Studies (1975) contain two volumes of essays. Searching for "Sunday" and "Sundays" turns up zero matches that they regarded it as a holy day. Roger Beck, an expert on Mithraism, mentions Sunday zero times in his 2006 work "The Religion of the Mithras Cult in the Roman Empire" which provides an overview of their practices. The major 1984 work "Mithras" by Reinhold Merkelbach is in German so it's harder for me to look into things, but I can still do a search. The German word for Sunday is "Sonntag" and plural "Sonntage" so I can search for that. "Sonntag" shows up only once, in a list of days of the week in different languages. No apparent mention of it being their big day of worship.

But what was Cumont's original reasoning for Sunday being their primary day of worship? I have noticed that when people assert that Sunday was particularly holy to Mithraists, they either give no source or defer back to Cumont; as noted, modern Mithras scholars don't seem to accept it (I admit my research was a bit cursory on that point, though). So what was the reasoning Cumont offered? Well, it's asserted without evidence in the English translation. But as Roger Pearse noted, the English one leaves out some things from the original French.

The argument can be found, in French, here. I don't know French. But we do have online automated translations that can give me the gist of things, and I am actually aided by a citation you offer later. This is jumping ahead, but the Hutton Webster citation at the end of your post refers to Cumont's work in a footnote and says:

"According to the testimony of Celsus, as quoted by Origen (Contra Celsum, vi., 21), the seven planets played an important role in the Mithraic mysteries. The chief position was naturally assigned to the sun, from which circumstance Cumont concludes, not only that the planetary week was known to Mithraism, but also that the dies Solis "etait evidemment le plus sacré de l'hebdomade pour les fideles de mithra, et, comme les Chrétiens, ils devaient sanctifer le dimanche et non pas le sabbat." See F. Cumont, Textes et monuments figurés relatifs aux mysteres de Mithra, Brussels, 1896-1899, i, 118 sq., ii, 31."

This tracks with what I can make out of the original French. But notice something interesting. It doesn't say there's any document that clearly shows the followers of Mithras esteemed Sunday any more holy than the rest of the week, but rather that this was Cumont's interpretation of a remark by Celsus (Celsus says nothing of Sunday himself). Cumont's conclusion that Sunday "was obviously the most sacred of the hebdomad for the faithful of mithra, and, like the Christians, they had to sanctify Sunday and not the Sabbath" (translation of the French) is simply a speculation on his part, and a rather wild one when one gets down to it. Celsus, as quoted by Origen in Contra Celsums book 6, chapter 22 (the above citation incorrectly says it's Chapter 21), mentions how the followers of Mithra had a ladder with gates, and on the top of it an eighth gate, which apparently showed the route souls could take to get from Earth to heaven or back. The gates are, in order: Saturn, Venus, Jupiter, Mercury, Mars, Moon, and Sun, which match up to the names of the days of the week in Latin/Greek, starting with Saturday (Saturn) and moving backwards until you reach Sunday (Sun). However, it takes a lot of speculation to take this, which technically says nothing about any days to begin with, and suppose it meant they took Sunday as the most holy just because the Sun was the highest gate (heck, even if these did provide evidence of importance of worship days--which is quite speculative--it's entirely possible they viewed Saturday as the most important because it was the first one mentioned).

So at the end of the day, this all really seems to just be a speculation by Franz Cumont that a lot of people just accepted as true and therefore repeated. If it is in fact more than a speculation, then a primary source should be offered saying that followers of Mithra did esteem Sunday as particularly important.

So it does not appear that Sunday was in fact the worship date of followers of Mithra... or, at least, that it was any more important than any other day of the week.

Indians
Among the Hindus, every Sunday was a holy day. One author writes:

"The different days enjoy degrees of veneration according to certain qualities which [the Hindus] attribute to [the days of the week]. They distinguish, for example, the Sunday, because it is the day of the sun and the beginning of the week." --Albiruni's India, II, p. 185.

The actual name of the work is Alberuni's India. Ordinarily this would be a minor note, but it does show how the source is just being copied and pasted without verification.

Also, the actual text differs slightly from what is offered by the quote. It says "The single days enjoy different degrees of veneration according to certain qualities which they attribute to them. They distinguish, e.g., the Sunday, because it is the day of the sun and the beginning of the week, as the Friday is distinguished in Islam." Admittedly, there is little difference in meaning, and unlike other cases in this list where I show that the quotes were apparently edited to conceal information--but it's still an error.

Anyway, this quote doesn't say Sunday was a "holy day", or at least any holier than any other day. It just says they have different qualities attributed, and it says as an example that Sunday is distinguished by being the day of the sun and the beginning of the week. It says nothing about it getting higher reverence at all.

Koreans
"Buddha is reported to have been of solar descent, as were the Incas of Peru and are the present royal house of Japan (whose ancestress is stated to have been the sun-goddess Amaterasu)." --E. Royston Pike, Encyclopecia of Religion, Art. Sun Worship.

This says nothing at all about Sunday, so who cares?

Germans
"The most ancient Germans being pagans, and having appropriated their first day of the week to the peculiar adoration to the sun, whereof, that day doth yet in our English tongue retain the name of Sunday." --Verstegan, Antiquities, p. 10.

A work from the the 17th century that makes a vague, brief, uncited claim that they had "peculiar adoration to the sun" on Sunday is not exactly what one would call particularly strong evidence that they actually viewed Sunday as particularly important in a religious sense.

Greeks
"At Sparta on the first day of every month the king made a sacrificial offering to Apollon [or Appollo], the sun-god, and the same practice was carried on at Athens." --Cook, Zeus, II, p. 237.

First day of every month ≠ first day of the week. Also, your quote deceitfully edits what the work actually says: "At Sparta on the first and seventh days of every month the kings sacrificed to Apollon... At Athens the first and seventh days of every month were sacred to Apollon." (my ellipsis just cuts out some in-line citations) Aside from the paraphrasing regarding Athens, one finds it rather interesting that your quote chooses to ignore the fact the seventh day of the month was also important in this.

Romans
"The first day of the week was the Mithraic Sunday before it was the Christian, and December 25 was Mithra's birthday." --E. Royston Pike, Encyclopedia of Religion, Art. Mithraism.

As discussed earlier, the idea that Mithra's birthday was December 25 was a speculation that Franz Cumont had, but which is not attested anywhere--or, at least, no one has ever been able to point to any attestation of it. And the idea of there being a "Mithraic Sunday" (at least of greater importance than any other day of the week) appears to have been a speculation on his part also. So it's pretty obvious this source is just taking its claims straight from Cumont. While an older source relying on Cumont is a bit understandable given that for a while he was the main person who actually wrote about Mithra so people had to take information from him, it shows it's out of date.

Mithraism and Christianism
The popular worship of Mithra [the "Invincible Sun-god"] became so pre-eminent in the Roman Empire in the days of Constantine, that he decreed "The Venerable Day of the Sun" to be the weekly rest day of the Empire.

One authority points out the influence of Mithraism on Christianity, saying:

"It [Mithraism] had so much acceptance that it was able to impose on the Christian world its own Sun-day in place of the Sabbath, its Sun's birthday, 25th December, as the birthday of Jesus." --G. Murray, Christianity in the Light of Modern Knowledge, pp. 73, 74.
This has the same problem as the above, but is even worse. You see, the above quote cuts off mid-sentence:

"It had so much acceptance that it was able to impose on the Christian world its own Sun-Day in place of the Sabbath, its Sun's birthday, 25th December, as the birthday of Jesus; its Magi and its Shepherd hailing the divine star, and various of its Easter celebrations."

We've already discussed how the issues with the December 25 and Sunday claims. The claim of Easter celebrations is too vague to assess, but seems dubious. And the "Magi and its Shepherd hailing the divine star" is wrong too as far as I am aware. One finds it interesting that the quote is cut off in mid sentence, as if it's trying to obscure the fact that it asserts that the Magi and Shepherds are taken from Mithraism.

Still another author says: "The early Christians had at first adopted the Jewish seven-day week, with its numbered week days, but by the close of the third century A.D. this began to give way to the planetary week; and in the fourth and fifth centuries the pagan designations became generally accepted in the western half of Christendom.

...During these same centuries the spread of Oriental solar worships, especially that of Mithra, in the Roman world, had already led to the substitution by the pagans of dies Solis (Sun-day) for dies Saturni (Saturday), as the first day of the planetary week...Thus gradually a pagan institution was engrafted on Christianity." --Hutton Webster, Rest Days, pp. 220, 221.

The first portion is rather irrelevant (it only concerns what names were used for the days of the week). As for the latter, it essentially admits in a footnote it was taken from Franz Cumont, but Cumont's work was speculative on this matter, as noted earlier.

The claim that "the observance of the first day of the week, the sun-day, played an important role in the pagan world" is simply not supported by the evidence it offered. It is also obvious that these quotes were not checked given the errors in some of them, and whoever came up with them originally was not exactly honestly in their representations due to editing (or even changing!) parts of the quotes that hurts their claims.
 
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BobRyan

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Ok this thread topic is an example of one where I don't post very much because one has to ferret out so many historic documents to validate it -

But in the following exchange - I don't understand the argument that JSRG is making

reddogs said:

Egyptians
In ancient Egypt the sun-cult originated at Heliopolis. The early sun-god of the ancient Egyptians was Re, and later Osiris, who came to be also the god of the dead and of the resurrection.

"Sunday (day of the sun) as the name of the first day of the week is derived from Egyptian astrology." --Catholic Encyclopedia, Art. Sunday.


Ok I get what is being claimed above - the point it is making is that a historic link exists between the veneration of Sunday in Egyptian astrology and the sun-god of the Egyptians and our own "sunday" - first day of the week.

How did week day 1 become known as "Sun day"?

from: Where Does "Sunday" Get Its Name From?.
=============== begin quote

How Sunday got its name

The name for Sunday stems from the Middle English word sunnenday, which itself comes from the Old English word sunnandæg. The English derivations stem from the Latin diēs sōlis (“sun’s day”).​
To know why this particular day is devoted to the sun, you have to look to Babylonian times.​
The Babylonians were the first to start the seven-day week, and they brought it to the Latin-speaking Romans, who named each day after a god. Germanic and Nordic people did the same, but replaced the Roman gods with their own corresponding gods.​

========== endquote ============

Of course the Jews and pretty much all mankind descendent from Noah had the 7 day week from Genesis 2:1-3 not from Babylonians long after Genesis 2. And long after Genesis 9. But it is more likely that Rome got its gods and week days in some form from Babylonians rather than from Moses.

There's an interesting sleight of hand here; it says the name Sunday came from Egyptian astrology, then tries to associate that with Ra, even though... no evidence is actually given that Sunday was of particular importance to the Egyptians
That is hard to follow since even the Catholic Encyclopedia and the dictionary above both admit to the link between the Sun god and week day 1 for the Egyptians. What about that is "sleight of hand"??
, or even that Ra worship had any association with Sunday.
Is your argument that the Egytians named the day after the Sun god but then neglected to make it a day devoted to the god that they named it after?

The dictionary article above has this statement "why this particular day is devoted to the sun," in setting up its explanation. Are all the sources "wrong" in your view?
 
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JSRG

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Ok this thread topic is an example of one where I don't post very much because one has to ferret out so many historic documents to validate it -

But in the following exchange - I don't understand the argument that JSRG is making



Ok I get what is being claimed above - the point it is making is that a historic link exists between the veneration of Sunday in Egyptian astrology and the sun-god of the Egyptians and our own "sunday" - first day of the week.

How did week day 1 become known as "Sun day"?

from: Where Does "Sunday" Get Its Name From?.
=============== begin quote

How Sunday got its name

The name for Sunday stems from the Middle English word sunnenday, which itself comes from the Old English word sunnandæg. The English derivations stem from the Latin diēs sōlis (“sun’s day”).​
To know why this particular day is devoted to the sun, you have to look to Babylonian times.​
The Babylonians were the first to start the seven-day week, and they brought it to the Latin-speaking Romans, who named each day after a god. Germanic and Nordic people did the same, but replaced the Roman gods with their own corresponding gods.​

========== endquote ============

Of course the Jews and pretty much all mankind descendent from Noah had the 7 day week from Genesis 2:1-3 not from Babylonians long after Genesis 2. And long after Genesis 9. But it is more likely that Rome got its gods and week days in some form from Babylonians rather than from Moses.


That is hard to follow since even the Catholic Encyclopedia and the dictionary above both admit to the link between the Sun god and week day 1 for the Egyptians. What about that is "sleight of hand"??

Is your argument that the Egytians named the day after the Sun god but then neglected to make it a day devoted to the god that they named it after?

The dictionary article above has this statement "why this particular day is devoted to the sun," in setting up its explanation. Are all the sources "wrong" in your view?
The claim being made was "Connected with sun worship, the observance of the first day of the week, the sun-day, played an important role in the pagan world." Prior to this, reddogs said "Well Sunday worship has an origin, but it may not be one you like.." So the argument is trying to show that a bunch of pagans were worshipping on Sunday and posit that that's the origin of Sunday worship in Christianity. It then gives a bit list of supposed examples of this in different cultures.

The excerpt in question again says:

Egyptians
In ancient Egypt the sun-cult originated at Heliopolis. The early sun-god of the ancient Egyptians was Re, and later Osiris, who came to be also the god of the dead and of the resurrection.

"Sunday (day of the sun) as the name of the first day of the week is derived from Egyptian astrology." --Catholic Encyclopedia, Art. Sunday.


Now, let's again remember the argument, that "Connected with sun worship, the observance of the first day of the week, the sun-day, played an important role in the pagan world." The quotes and citations were supposed to show that there was observance of such. But all the above quote says is that the name comes from Egyptian astrology. It doesn't say that in Egypt, Sunday had any particular connection to Sun worship, or that it was a special day of worship for the Egyptians any more than any other day was, or that it was even affiliated with any specific Egyptian deities like Ra. All the quote says is that its name (along with the names of the other days of the week) came from Egyptian astrology. So it doesn't provide evidence for the claim made. I call it "sleight of hand" because it's making one claim but then offering evidence for a different one and acting as if that different one, simply because the Sun gets mentioned, is evidence of the first.

Now, in my examination, I essentially stopped there because I didn't think there was any need to go into more; if it didn't support the claim being made, going into more issues is unnecessary. But, you see, the Catholic Encyclopedia article doesn't stop with just that one sentence. By listing only the first sentence of the article, the quote cuts off some clarifying detail:

"Sunday (Day of the Sun), as the name of the first day of the week, is derived from Egyptian astrology. The seven planets, known to us as Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, the Sun, Venus, Mercury, and the Moon, each had an hour of the day assigned to them, and the planet which was regent during the first hour of any day of the week gave its name to that day (see CALENDAR). During the first and second century the week of seven days was introduced into Rome from Egypt, and the Roman names of the planets were given to each successive day."

So as it explains, the names for the days of the week came from the planets (obviously, nowadays we don't consider the Sun or the Moon to be a planet, but for convenience I will use that term). Granted, the planets in Greek (and Latin) shared their names with a deity (it seems the planets were named after the deities), but the days of the week were named after the planets, not those deities. The Encyclopedia Britannica's article on Week concurs, saying: "The Babylonians named each of the days after one of the five planetary bodies known to them (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn) and after the Sun and the Moon, a custom later adopted by the Romans." Now, there is a bit of dispute as to exactly who came up with it--this article (written by Ilaria Bultrighini, a postdoctoral researcher in this sort of thing so it's someone who should know what they're talking about) asserts that the commonly made claims of Egyptian or Babylonian origin for the days of the week is wrong and that it was really an Italian creation (which if true would ironically completely torpedo reddog's claim that this was an Egyptian thing). But whoever came up with it, all these agree that it came from the planets. We know this because the origin (as mentioned especially in the Bultrighini link) comes from something called "planetary hours" where each of the seven planets occupied particular hours of the day based on their supposed distance (the distance order was wrong, but let's cut ancient astronomers some slack for not having modern technology), resulting in a cycle where the "first" hour for a day was Saturn (hence Saturday), then the Sun for the next day (Sunday) then the Moon for the next (Monday), and so on until you got back to Saturn and the cycle repeated.

With this clarification in mind, we'll turn to the points you raise. In regards to your question of "Is your argument that the Egyptians named the day after the Sun god but then neglected to make it a day devoted to the god that they named it after?" my argument was that the quote offered didn't say anything about the day itself being dedicated to that god, or anything about worship of that god, so it didn't support the claim being made. I thought that was a sufficient point so I quit at that point. But if it isn't sufficient, there are additional issues with it, a big one being what the source went on to say. In the larger excerpt from the article being cited above, the source didn't say it was named after the Sun god to begin with, but that it was named after the Sun itself, as the days of the week were named after the planets.

In regards to the Dictionary.com link, I'm always leery of pages on the Internet that offer no sources or any information about the author. Most of it seems perfectly fine, but its claim that the Latin-speaking Romans "named each day after a god" isn't exactly accurate for the reasons given above--they were named after planets, not gods, even if they also ended up with the names of gods because of planets sharing their names. But the gods weren't the ones in mind when the names were given, rather the planets because the whole thing dates back to astrology.

As for its statement that "To know why this particular day is devoted to the sun, you have to look to Babylonian times," your implication seems to be that its mention of "devotion" is in the sense of religious devotion, but the context of the article is to talk about the name, so I read its statement of "devotion" as referring to the name referring to the Sun, not any kind of religious devotion.

So, to summarize, my basic argument was that the quotation offered didn't support the claim because it offers nothing to indicate there was any particularly importance worship on the day, but an additional problem I didn't note was that as stated in the source (in a section left out of the quote), the days were directly named after planets rather than the deities those planets were named after, making the quotation's relevance to the claim even more tenuous than it already was. This post might have been a bit rambling, but hopefully it explained some things.
 
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reddogs

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Sabbath was establishe at creation. It predates Torah and the abandonment of it is the pagan roots of Rome.
We have the Bible right before our eyes showing this, yet there are many eyes that cannot see or ears that dont want to hear..
 
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prodromos

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We have the Bible right before our eyes showing this, yet there are many eyes that cannot see or ears that dont want to hear..
There is no evidence that Adam and Eve observed the Sabbath, either before or after the fall. There would certainly have been no need before the fall as there was no work for them to rest from, then when they fell under the curse of the fall there was no indication that Adam would have a respite from having to work the soil one day a week.
There is no evidence that Abraham observed the Sabbath either, nor his descendants until the exodus from Egypt, when God made it part of His covenant with Israel.

We have the Bible right before our eyes showing this, yet there are many eyes that cannot see or ears that dont want to hear..
 
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HIM

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There is no evidence that Adam and Eve observed the Sabbath, either before or after the fall. There would certainly have been no need before the fall as there was no work for them to rest from, then when they fell under the curse of the fall there was no indication that Adam would have a respite from having to work the soil one day a week.
There is no evidence that Abraham observed the Sabbath either, nor his descendants until the exodus from Egypt, when God made it part of His covenant with Israel.

We have the Bible right before our eyes showing this, yet there are many eyes that cannot see or ears that dont want to hear..
Yes there is. Adam and Eve were made in His image and likeness to walk. As Paul testified in Acts 17. in Him we live move and have our being. And that my friend was spoken about 4000 years after the fall to pagans. So it was only natural for Adam and Eve to partake of the Sabbath because they at the time were following our creators lead fully.
 
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These are false assumptions. Here is why.
Because God rested on the seventh day in creation, the seventh day was made a day of rest for the Children of Israel not a day of worship. You cannot and will not show 1 scripture; that God declared the seventh day as the only day to worship.

Unrelated to the question about worship days.
First off you edited out whoever you were speaking to. Second no one here that I am aware of is making an argument that the Sabbath is the only day to worship. As Christians We worship God everyday. It is who we are. We can't help it. Our Lives are a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto the Lord. For it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. Us in Him, He in us that the world might believe.
The Sabbath is be a day of rest from our labor that we do normally to survive and make money. A day set apart, made holy because God finished Creation and rested from all His work on it. We are to rest. And while resting physically we are to continue to rest in and through Him Spiritually. Which is how we keep the Day Holy. Which WE ARE CALLED TO KEEP THE DAY HOLY AND THEREFORE WORSHIP ALSO. If we are not resting in and through Him Spiritually, we are not resting in Him physically either. Therefore we are not keeping the day Holy. Worship helps us stay focused and keep the Day Holy and not defile the day by our presence.
 
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prodromos

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Yes there is. Adam and Eve were made in His image and likeness to walk. As Paul testified in Acts 17. in Him we live move and have our being. And that my friend was spoken about 4000 years after the fall to pagans. So it was only natural for Adam and Eve to partake of the Sabbath because they at the time were following our creators lead fully.
As I've already stated, Adam and Eve did no work in the garden of Eden prior to the fall. There were no labours from which they were to rest. You are reading into the text. That is called "eisegesis".
 
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As I've already stated, Adam and Eve did no work in the garden of Eden prior to the fall. There were no labours from which they were to rest. You are reading into the text. That is called "eisegesis".
No the text states that in His image and likeness we were made to walk. If God rested the Seventh Day they did. And Paul wrote that in Him we live move and have our being,
 
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First off you edited out whoever you were speaking to. Second no one here that I am aware of is making an argument that the Sabbath is the only day to worship.
#1. My response is to the Original Post of this thread made by Reddog
Secondly, Reddog words are posted saying
"Since the scriptures are clear that no other day was made as the day of worship except the seventh day, and the Commandments show this with unblinking clarity to Christians,........."

So, what part of "no other day of worship except the Sabbath day" don't you understand?
As Christians We worship God everyday. It is who we are. We can't help it. Our Lives are a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto the Lord. For it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. Us in Him, He in us that the world might believe
The Sabbath is be a day of rest from our labor that we do normally to survive and make money. A day set apart, made holy because God finished Creation and rested from all His work on it. We are to rest. And while resting physically we are to continue to rest in and through Him Spiritually. Which is how we keep the Day Holy. Which WE ARE CALLED TO KEEP THE DAY HOLY AND THEREFORE WORSHIP ALSO. If we are not resting in and through Him Spiritually, we are not resting in Him physically either. Therefore we are not keeping the day Holy. Worship helps us stay focused and keep the Day Holy and not defile the day by our presence.
Agree that that we should worship every day. The OP's perspective is a false narrative. You've made it your burden to show that Christians are commanded to keep the Sabbath. I'm waiting for your responses,
 
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No the text states that in His image and likeness we were made to walk. If God rested the Seventh Day they did. And Paul wrote that in Him we live move and have our being,
Show a scripture stating, "in His image and likeness we were made to walk."
 
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