The first day of the week -- vs -- "the Lord's day" or the new "Sabbath" in the NEW Testament

[chevyontheriver]

Not the subject of this thread.

You apparently find the irrefutable details claim in the OP - to be so inconvenient you are posting here but entirely ignoring the OP.

obligatory rant deleted

Not the subject of this thread.

As the OP points out -- some people actually do care what is in the Bible.

Feel free to address the actual subject of the thread in the OP. Or do you find it so irrefutable that you would rather talk about something else?

=============================

As it is - you are making the OP look like some sort of mythical Kryptonite that you cannot touch with a ten foot pole. Do you really find the irrefutable statements it makes - soooo hard to deal with???

Get over it.

Your item number one from the original post fails because nobody says the Sabbath is not still Saturday. In fact, outside of the English reverencing of Saturn, the Romance languages, with Spanish as example, call the day Sabbado. The Sabbath is the Sabbath was the Sabbath will be the Sabbath. No change. So no need to find a Bible verse that changes it. So your challenge to find a verse that changes it is rather empty. At that point I stopped with your list. It is irrelevant.

You didn’t deny your belief that we are going to persecute you over not worshipping in Sunday. All you could say is ‘not the subject of this thread’.

 

[BobRyan]

Not just a salvation issue, but they believe they will be persecuted

Not the subject of this thread.

You apparently find the irrefutable details claim in the OP - to be so inconvenient you are posting here but entirely ignoring the OP.

and forced to worship on Sunday. The evil Catholics, in league with...

obligatory rant deleted

So Ellen Gould White didn't say that you guys would face persecution...

Not the subject of this thread.

Honestly nobody cares which day you think you need to worship.

As the OP points out -- some people actually do care what is in the Bible.

Feel free to address the actual subject of the thread in the OP. Or do you find it so irrefutable that you would rather talk about something else?

=============================

As it is - you are making the OP look like some sort of mythical Kryptonite that you cannot touch with a ten foot pole. Do you really find the irrefutable statements it makes - soooo hard to deal with???

Get over it.

I guess if that is all you have -- you need to go with it.

You have free will - ignore all the thread you wish.

Your item number one from the original post fails because nobody says the Sabbath is not still Saturday.

#1. you need to get out more if you don't think there are people today saying the the Sabbath day in the NT was changed to week-day-1.
#2.Your statement of "fail" is in the form "your first point is true and nobody disputes it" --

No wonder you treat the OP like some sort of kryptonite.

You didn’t deny your belief that we are going to persecute you

I deny that your topic in that sentence is the subject of this thread (another irrefutable statement of mine that we BOTH know to be true)

I still deny it - as you probably know already.

 

[BobRyan]

Because its for the thousand time. Your goal is to preach your SDA "gospel"

yet another "not the topic of the thread - try to avoid the OP some more" kind of post?

Why not just read and respond to the OP

Why do you even create new threads

Consider actually responding to the OP.

 

[BobRyan]

Most of us here would agree that the resurrection was on week-day-1 -- (what we call Sunday today).

However when it comes to the New Testament and the weekly day of worship found there --

1. Not ONE text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
2. Not ONE text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
3. Not ONE text in the NT says "we meet for worship every week day 1"
4. Not ONE text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
5. Not ONE text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"

=========== by contrast EVERY reference to the weekly Sabbath in the NT refers to the seventh day of the week - Saturday

Acts 18:4 4 And he (the Apostle Paul) reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks."

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul.

======================================

If this is the case - then keeping week-day-1 instead of the seventh day -- as either "the new Sabbath" or as your own personal "Lord's day" is a preference or a later tradition rather than something that comes to us from the actual New Testament.

The real reason the Seventh Day Adventists are so fixed on this topic,

Try posting an actual Bible fact in response to the OP where specific details are laid out for you? Why avoid the obvious??

the same weak/wrong arguments over and over again,

Prove it - post an actual Bible fact in direct response to the OP that you are avoiding.

Ok, do not avoid it

If this is you -- almost about to respond to the OP -- I look forward to read it.

and tell us - do you believe sabbath keeping is needed

That is not the topic of this thread.

I believe that as both the Baptist Confession of faith sectn 19 and the Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19 and as Dies Domini states - the TEN Are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the Jer 31:31-34 NEW Covenant.

But I do not believe that everyone who bows down before images of Mary or who covets or who thinks Sabbath is week-day-1 is lost. (and that is not even the topic of this thread).

Consider actually responding to the OP facts with something that does NOT keep looking like "I AGREE with the OP so can't argue with it - so then lets talk about something else".

But from the previous conversations, I almost certainly know you will not answer any of these.

hmmm - so you admit you have another topic you wish to discuss. Fine - start a thread on your preferred topic and let's see if your "prediction" is true or not.

As it is your posts look a lot like "I AGREE with the OP irrefutable statements, so I can't argue with it - so then lets talk about something else".

 

[BobRyan]

The verses in the OP have nothing to do with specific SDA teaching

That is pretty much a joke - you can't be serious. We all know SDAs very specifically endorse those irrefutable statements in the OP and we bring it up quite a bit in our discussions on this topic - even on this platform

Is this yet another creative post of yours of the form "I AGREE with the OP irrefutable statements, so I can't argue with it - so then lets talk about something else" ???

 

[BobRyan]

The pattern so far - for those opposing my beliefs -- has been to AGREE with the OP irrefutable statements -- but to do so disagreeably ...

I don't see how that helps.

 

[Bob S]

WoW - at this point 100% of the responses NOT in favor of the statements in the OP - proceed by ignoring every Bible fact listed in the OP - in fact not challenging a single one.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

Another WOW!, who said we ignored your irrefutable statements? They are irrefutable so what do you want us to say? After the new covenant took place there is nothing about Sabbath observance either. Is it your contention that your Op is something great that will somehow persuade someone to join a group of people that has one foot in the old covenant? Your church spends millions trying to convince people to join your church and "keep" the Sabbath. I have been part of those efforts in the past and the cost of one convert is astronomical. You have to go to people who have no knowledge of the real truth in Third World countries to get most of your numbers.

After reading the letters in the new covenant it is obvious, we are not subject to old covenant laws. No wonder there are no demands in the new covenant about keeping days, Jesus has set Israel free from the Sinai Covenant. Gentile nations were never subject to them in the first place.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

WoW - at this point 100% of the responses NOT in favor of the statements in the OP - proceed by ignoring every Bible fact listed in the OP - in fact not challenging a single one.

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

Another WOW!,

yep -- pretty hard to ignore things that are "irrefutable" apparently. As noted in the OP

who said we ignored your irrefutable statements?

So far you have done it in every one of your posts.
Do you read your own posts?
Did you find someone else who addressed a single detail listed in the OP - in opposition to it? (including yourself of course)
If so now would be a good time to post a fact to that effect.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"?
Seriously?

They are irrefutable so what do you want us to say?

Well you can say "yes we agree - we simply don't like it that we find no way out of agreeing with that fact as posted".

Or you could keep casting about you for "some other topic you wish we were discussing instead" as you have been doing so far.

After the new covenant took place there is nothing about Sabbath observance either.

Until you actually read it.

Hint - "this IS the New Covenant" -- Jer 31:31-34
Hint - "this IS the New Covenant" - Heb 8:6-12

You should post an actual fact to back up your wild claims.

Is it your contention that your Op is something great

My claim is that it lists irrefutable facts -- as noted in the OP.
My claim is that -- this alone is so "inconvenient" to a certain group opposing the Bible Sabbath that they will complain - and yet still be forced to agree that the OP facts are indeed "irrefutable".

I am delighted to see you join in "making my point for me" even in your own posts.

Your church spends millions trying to convince people to join

My church is the fastest growing Christian church according to Christianity Today - 2016 article -
Is this supposed to make me "feel bad"?
Is that the "other topic" you wish to discuss other than the topic of this thread??
If so - I find your argument rather weak at that point.

No wonder there are no demands in the new covenant about keeping days

The NEW Covenant Jer 31:31-34 is OLD TESTAMENT - as we all know
and "IN that CONTEXT" Jeremiah says "God writes His LAW on heart and mind" -- as everyone who actually reads the New Covenant also knows

This is not "news" to the authors of the "Baptist Confession of Fatih - sectn 19" or the "Westminster Confession of Fatih - sectn 19".
Is it your claim that Jer 31 and Hebrews 8 is "news" to you?

Maybe you should start a thread on that topic.

, Jesus has set Israel free from the Sinai Covenant. Gentile nations were never subject to them in the first place.

And so that "frees you to take God's name in vain" (since that is one of the TEN found in the OT)
Does it free you to NOT "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5??
Does it free you to NOT "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18?

Does it free you to "not notice" that in the New Earth for all eternity AFTER the cross - "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"? Is 66:23

Just out of curiosity of course.

 

[Bob S]

BobRyan said:

WoW - at this point 100% of the responses NOT in favor of the statements in the OP - proceed by ignoring every Bible fact listed in the OP - in fact not challenging a single one.

While the OP cannot be denied it in no way proves that we are under the laws of the Sinai Covenant, so what is your point of posting it?

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

yep -- pretty hard to ignore things that are "irrefutable" apparently. As noted in the OP

I challenge you to find a single verse after the death and resurrection of Jesus (the New Covenant era) that tells us we have to observe days or pay tithe. You try to make us believe the New and better Covenant is just the old one warmed over which is not in the least true. New does not in any way indicate old warmed over and if you really believe it does you would be keeping all of the dictates of that covenant. And since you don't we know you are espousing a bunch of hot air.

So far you have done it in every one of your posts.

Every one of my posts tells a true story just the opposite of what you are trying to prove.

Do you read your own posts?

That is about as bright a question as your OP.

Did you find someone else who addressed a single detail listed in the OP - in opposition to it? (including yourself of course)
If so now would be a good time to post a fact to that effect.

We all know your scheme, so we need not answer. What your OP reminded me of was years ago when some SDA preacher offered to give anyone a thousand dollars if they could find, in scripture, where Sunday is now the Sabbath. What a joke that was.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"?
Seriously?

We?

Well you can say "yes we agree - we simply don't like it that we find no way out of agreeing with that fact as posted".

The fact is that all your questions are ridicules and only proves you do not understand we are not subject to the ritual laws of the old covenant.

Or you could keep casting about you for "some other topic you wish we were discussing instead" as you have been doing so far.

At least our posts have merit.

Hint - "this IS the New Covenant" -- Jer 31:31-34
Hint - "this IS the New Covenant" - Heb 8:6-12

So????

You should post an actual fact to back up your wild claims.

Prove any of my posts wrong Bob.

My claim is that it lists irrefutable facts -- as noted in the OP.

Yep, and what do they prove? They prove nothing that we already know. We know that we are not under the Laws of the Sinai Covenant therefore we are FREE to worship corporately any time we please.

My claim is that -- this alone is so "inconvenient" to a certain group opposing the Bible Sabbath that they will complain - and yet still be forced to agree that the OP facts are indeed "irrefutable".

The fact is that your nonsensible OP does not prove we have to try to keep a day that is no longer required.

I am delighted to see you join in "making my point for me" even in your own posts.

Just as you cannot prove there is a tithing system mentioned after the death and resurrection of Jesus yet your prophet, which you believe her writings are equal to scripture, wrote that if you do not return a faithful tithe, you will not receive eternal life. Jesus and His disciples, according to the old covenant tithing laws, have not received their eternal reward because they didn't have to pay tithe. Read the law about who was to pay tithe.

My church is the fastest growing Christian church according to Christianity Today - 2016 article -

2016 article had to have included third world countries. My post was about the church in America and Europe. Outreach 100: 2017 Fastest-Growing Churches in America

Is this supposed to make me "feel bad"?

That is up to you Bob.

Is that the "other topic" you wish to discuss other than the topic of this thread??

Just a reminder.

If so - I find your argument rather weak at that point.

Just your opinion. The readers of the OP may feel different.

The NEW Covenant Jer 31:31-34 is OLD TESTAMENT - as we all know
and "IN that CONTEXT" Jeremiah says "God writes His LAW on heart and mind" -- as everyone who actually reads the New Covenant also knows

If "His LAW" written on our hearts are the 613 commands (according to our Jewish friends) and your post, then why are you not trying to observe them?

This is not "news" to the authors of the "Baptist Confession of Fatih - sectn 19" or the "Westminster Confession of Fatih - sectn 19".
Is it your claim that Jer 31 and Hebrews 8 is "news" to you?

What the Baptists believe is not relevant to me, because I am not under their dictates since I am not one.

Maybe you should start a thread on that topic.

Most Christians know they are different covenants, and it has become useless to try to teach you the differences.

And so that "frees you to take God's name in vain" (since that is one of the TEN found in the OT)

You know better than to ask that question.

Does it free you to NOT "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5??
Does it free you to NOT "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18?

Jesus gave us a new command. We are to loves others as He loves us. There is no greater love than to give our lives for others. Jesus did just that. We intern, if the cause arises, will do the same for our fellow man. That is the truest love one can give and what we do for others we do it unto Jesus.

Does it free you to "not notice" that in the New Earth for all eternity AFTER the cross - "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"? Is 66:23

and then go out amongst all the dead bodies that have worms crawling around? (verse 24). Isaiah in chapter 65 summarizes the New Earth as being a place where man will live to be over 100 before he dies. Should you use Is 66:23-24 as being the real truth about what we do in Heaven?

 

[chevyontheriver]

While the OP cannot be denied it in no way proves that we are under the laws of the Sinai Covenant, so what is your point of posting it?

I challenge you to find a single verse after the death and resurrection of Jesus (the New Covenant era) that tells us we have to observe days or pay tithe. You try to make us believe the New and better Covenant is just the old one warmed over which is not in the least true. New does not in any way indicate old warmed over and if you really believe it does you would be keeping all of the dictates of that covenant. And since you don't we know you are espousing a bunch of hot air.

Every one of my posts tells a true story just the opposite of what you are trying to prove.

That is about as bright a question as your OP.

We all know your scheme, so we need not answer. What your OP reminded me of was years ago when some SDA preacher offered to give anyone a thousand dollars if they could find, in scripture, where Sunday is now the Sabbath. What a joke that was.

I guess I fell for the bait. At least in his first question. I should'a never touched the whole scheme. It's been a waste of time. My curiosity in all of it was why they think we will persecute them for wanting to worship on Saturday. But I was told vociferously that such a thing was not part of the OP. Silliness. I'm out'a here.

 

[BobRyan]

While the OP cannot be denied it in no way proves that we are under the laws of the Sinai Covenant

1. This thread is about the fact that the OP is undeniable - irrefutable. Apparently you have stopped objecting to it and now admit it. Interesting.

2. If you want to start a thread on the idea that we are supposed to be taking God's name in vain as Christians since the Ex 20 text is in some way deleted feel free. While you do that - you can also imagine a way that your speculation is sustained even thought Christianity in its many denominations seem to see that your argument falls flat when it comes to the TEN --
As we all saw in the case of
the Baptist Confession of Faith Sectn 19
and also Dies Domini,
and also the Westminster Confession of faith Sectn 19
, and also D.L. Moody's sermon on the TEN Commandments
and also R.C. Sproul's affirmation of the TEN
and also C.H. Spurgeon's affirmation of the TEN
and also the Apostle Paul's appeal to the unit of TEN in Eph 6:1-2
...

, so what is your point of posting it?

Well - I can read.

I challenge you to find a single verse after the death and resurrection of Jesus (the New Covenant era)

Jer 31 and Heb 8 point to the New Covenant as OT - and Gal 1:6-9 with its affirmation that there is "only ONE GOSPEL" such that "the Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8 is scripture challenging your speculation.

Is 66:23 directly refutes your claims with its statement that for all eternity AFTER the cross in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" --

A bible fact which you and I both know to be true long before this thread was started.
I suspect you enjoy having this point brought up each time you make the claim above.

Every one of my posts tells a true story

I thought they had all been debunked at this point - did not make it past my review? -- please let me know which one.

Aside from some pejoratives and ranting snips in your last post - could not find an actual point -- if I missed it - please let me know. I am trying hard to find something in it - that could use a response.

 

[BobRyan]

While the OP cannot be denied

I guess I fell for the bait. At least in his first question. I should'a never touched the whole scheme. It's been a waste of time.

Interesting that Bob S admits the OP is irrefutable - and you then find your own posts to be wasted since you spent all your time complaining about it being wrong in some way. I have to agree with your idea that your responses here needed a bit of work given that the OP is irrefutable.

My curiosity in all of it was why they think we will persecute them

Hint - there is no "we will persecute them" in anything I posted.. It is just in what you and some folks opposed to the Bible Sabbath keep posting in my thread.

Did you already forget what you posted?

for wanting to worship on Saturday. But I was told vociferously that such a thing was not part of the OP.

No "vociferosity" needed to simply read page one to find that I never include any persecution topics at all in this entire thread. Is this more wishful thinking in your posts?

Your imagination is not helping your argument at this point.

 

[BobRyan]

Because its for the thousand time. Your goal is to preach your SDA "gospel",

We have the "everlasting Gospel" in Rev 14:6 -- the ONE gospel of Gal 1:6-9 that as Paul says in Gal 3:8 "was preached to Abraham".

deal.

 

[BobRyan]

Get over it.

Your item number one from the original post fails because nobody says the Sabbath is not still Saturday.

Get over it - read the Baptist Confession of Faith sectn 22

Read the Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19 and the Baptist Confession of faith Sectn 19 for all TEN commandments included in the moral law of God binding on all mankind- according to most Christian denomination as opposed to your much speculated "nobody".

Read Bob S - most recent post where even he admits the OP is irrefutable.

How is this even a little bit confusing for you???

You didn’t deny your belief that we are going to persecute you

That idea is not the topic of this thread. Feel free to start your own thread on your topics.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Get over it - read the Baptist Confession of Faith sectn 22

Read the Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19 and the Baptist Confession of faith Sectn 19 for all TEN commandments included in the moral law of God binding on all mankind- according to most Christian denomination as opposed to your much speculated "nobody".

Read Bob S - most recent post where even he admits the OP is irrefutable.

How is this even a little bit confusing for you???

That idea is not the topic of this thread. Feel free to start your own thread on your topics.

How many times do you need to reply to my post? Three or four more times? Knock yourself out.

 

[Bob S]

Get over it - read the Baptist Confession of Faith sectn 22

Read the Westminster Confession of Faith sectn 19 and the Baptist Confession of faith Sectn 19 for all TEN commandments included in the moral law of God binding on all mankind- according to most Christian denomination as opposed to your much speculated "nobody".

Read Bob S - most recent post where even he admits the OP is irrefutable.

I only admitted that there is nothing about Sunday sacredness in the scripture. Also, there is nothing about having to keep the old covenant Sabbath. God has never told Gentiles we have to observe any day. So, again, what are you trying to prove?

Paul is very clear in 2Cor3:6-11 that we are not under the ten commandments. The KJV tells us the ten are "done away".

 

[trophy33]

We have the "everlasting Gospel" in Rev 14:6 -- the ONE gospel of Gal 1:6-9 that as Paul says in Gal 3:8 "was preached to Abraham".

deal.

I used quotes. Because preaching the Law or Sabbath is not gospel, of course. But you focus on as if it was a gospel.

 

[Gary K]

I used quotes. Because preaching the Law or Sabbath is not gospel, of course. But you focus on as if it was a gospel.

It's pretty obvious you don't understand the gospel. The good news is that God enables us to keep His law.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The good news is that God enables us to keep His law.

Amen! God writes His law in our hearts and minds- we just need to keep it there and not change what God placed there for us which enables us to worship and obey Him. This is great news that Jesus resides in us and frees us of the bondage of sin., which reconciles us back to Him Rom 6:16 Rev 22:14

 

[BobRyan]

The real reason the Seventh Day Adventists are so fixed on this topic

is that a lot of people feel the "need" to ignore the irrefutable details in the OP.

Most of us here would agree that the resurrection was on week-day-1 -- (what we call Sunday today).

However when it comes to the New Testament and the weekly day of worship found there --

1. Not ONE text in the NT says "the Sabbath is now kept on the first day of the week"
2. Not ONE text in the NT says "we now keep the first day of the week as the Lord's Day"
3. Not ONE text in the NT says "we meet for worship every week day 1"
4. Not ONE text in the NT says "We meet on week day 1 in honor of the resurrection on week day 1"
5. Not ONE text in the NT says "The Lord's day is on week day 1"
6. Not ONE text in the NT says "Ignore the Commandments of God"
7. Not ONE text in the NT says "ignore scripture, ignore what the Holy Spirit says"

Those points are irrefutable - and you can see how they are avoided in the opposing posts ....

What we DO Find in the NT is
1. "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
2. "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
3. "this IS the Love of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:3
Where "The first commandment WITH a promise is - Honor your father and mother(Ex 20:12) " Eph 6:2

We also find this in the NT
1. "the Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
2. there is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9
3. The "Gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also" Heb 4:2
4. the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 quoted verbatim in Heb 8:6-12
5. Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ in Matt 17 - even before the cross.

=========== by contrast EVERY reference to the weekly Sabbath in the NT refers to the seventh day of the week - Saturday

Acts 18:4 4 And he (the Apostle Paul) reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks."

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul.

======================================

If this is the case - then keeping week-day-1 instead of the seventh day -- as either "the new Sabbath" or as your own personal "Lord's day" is a preference or a later tradition rather than something that comes to us from the actual New Testament.

more and more threads about the same thing, with the same weak/wrong arguments over and over again

And yet even those opposed to the Bible Sabbath on this thread - admit that the OP is irrefutable.

How is it that the arguments' opposing the Bible Sabbath irrefutable details in the OP -- fail so transparently??