Discussion Salvation Requirement in the Old Testament

[ToBeLoved]

"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!"

I think one needs to know they need to be saved before they will look for a saviour. Repentance shows the need.

ok, I see what your saying.

 

[ToBeLoved]

God is the Holy Spirit, He was active in the OT, in Ps 23 It was God, the Holy Spirit, who was David's Shepherd, David said, "thou art with me, Thy rod and staff, they comfort me"

It was a repentant David who asked God not to take His Holy Spirit from him in Psalm 51:11

Ok, that's fine, It wasn't the indwelt Holy Spirit though.

 

[Biblicist]

First, it wasn't me who posted the link to the article re/ "Holy Spirit in the OT ", that was a Baptist, I do not see what cessationism has to do with our subject.

Franky, you have my most sincere apologies for having carelessly connected you with that fundamentalist Baptist article; I will go back and strike-through my remarks to avoid any confusion - again, my apologies.

I agree that the indwelling Holy Spirit was not in the OT, but the HS did closely influence and enable many OT. David said in Psalm 40:8 "..........Thy law is in my heart."

David wrote many words to tell of his closeness to God . Psalm 23 comes to mind besides hundred of others.

Please explain what it is, that you think I believe, that is heresy ?

You’re right in that the Holy Spirit did involve himself with a small number of Israelites; though his involvement appears to be minimalist but even with those he ministered through his presence was always temporary and never permanent. With regard to David's declaration that "Your Law is in my heart", this is not a reference to the Holy Spirit but where he was simply saying that he agreed wholeheartedly with God's conditions and that he zealously wanted to obey; though his murder of his mistresses husband stood in opposition to this.

I just don't understand your statements that The OT Jews were on their own, Israel the nation, has always been the apple of God's eye. He made an everlasting covenant with them, which we share in as grafted in branches to the rich root of the Olive tree. Rom. 11, and Gal 3.

For the Israelites, along with their Patriarchs, Prophets and other important individuals, they were the only ones who had the Holy Spirit even temporarily residing within them, which would amount for maybe less than a few hundred or maybe a thousand throughout their entire time as a nation. For the Jews and even with those who I just mentioned, their obligation to obey the Laws that God gave their nation was an obligation that had to be administered in their own strength without the inner presence of the Holy Spirit.

This is why the Old Covenant with its numerous Laws was inferior to the New Covenant and by Ezekiel’s time which was about 500 BC, we can see that Israel was about to be rejected (Rom 11:15) as God’s people. From Ezekiel 36 to 38 we know that God had made provisions whereby Israel would one day be restored but for 2000 years they were cursed and broken off (Rom 11:20,21) but in the last months before Christ returns many will be empowered to return.

Gal 3:10-14 (NASB)

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "--
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

This is in stark contrast to the New Covenant where the Holy Spirit is our strength. Could you imagine how it would be if Paul had told us that to be redeemed that we had to follow everything that he has written for us to its fullest, where even a single failure to show an attitude of love to another person that this would be enough for us to be cursed as well.

Unlike the Old Covenant where only a handful were able to prophesy, this is something that all New Covenant Believers can do, we can also pray to the Father through the Eschatological Spirit. We also have the provision of the 9 Operations of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-11) and unlike Israel of old, we have the Spirit as a guide who can provide an inner wittness to the truth which is something that Israel could not experience.

Most importantly, where Israel of old was justified by their obedience to the Laws of God, where their obedience was through self effort without the inner presence of the Holy Spirit; on the other hand, we are justified through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit by faith.

 

[Truthfrees]

WHAT JESUS SAID ABOUT FAITH IN THE OT LAW

"You pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone." - Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42

 

[JellyBellyNellie]

Ok, that's fine, It wasn't the indwelt Holy Spirit though.

Is there more than one holy spirit?

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

I find it rather amusing that people think Old Testament believers were saved by keeping the whole law. Isn't it written for by the law shall no one be saved? How were they going to be saved?

Of course it is obvious from the Bible that no one did keep the whole law, but God knew that, that's why he gave sacrifices. The sacrifices spoke of Christ and were able to save the sinner [law breaker]. They were imperfect but they were the law by which God forgave a constantly sinning Israel. I don't know why that is so hard to see.

Unfortunately it was common in Israel to treat the sacrifice lightly because they did not perceive the gravity of their sin. They even neglected the sacrifice, choosing rather to sacrifice to the idols of the Canaanites. Their faith was not in the true God and their lives became wicked, so God judged them.

God accepted the sacrifice of animals because he knew in the fullness of time he would send his son Jesus Christ who is the real and perfect propitiation for sins.

It is faith in God that saves and there is no salvation by any other name than that of Jesus Christ.

Arguments about the indwelling of the Spirit do nothing to reveal that the remission of sin is by the shedding of blood, and it is the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

What we have today is the fullness of what Israel had in part. If God had expected the law to save them there would have been no need for the sacrifice.

 

[franky67]

I find it rather amusing that people think Old Testament believers were saved by keeping the whole law. Isn't it written for by the law shall no one be saved? How were they going to be saved?

Of course it is obvious from the Bible that no one did keep the whole law, but God knew that, that's why he gave sacrifices. The sacrifices spoke of Christ and were able to save the sinner [law breaker]. They were imperfect but they were the law by which God forgave a constantly sinning Israel. I don't know why that is so hard to see.

Unfortunately it was common in Israel to treat the sacrifice lightly because they did not perceive the gravity of their sin. They even neglected the sacrifice, choosing rather to sacrifice to the idols of the Canaanites. Their faith was not in the true God and their lives became wicked, so God judged them.

God accepted the sacrifice of animals because he knew in the fullness of time he would send his son Jesus Christ who is the real and perfect propitiation for sins.

It is faith in God that saves and there is no salvation by any other name than that of Jesus Christ.

Arguments about the indwelling of the Spirit do nothing to reveal that the remission of sin is by the shedding of blood, and it is the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

What we have today is the fullness of what Israel had in part. If God had expected the law to save them there would have been no need for the sacrifice.

 

[Svt4Him]

I seem to miss where anyone says this. If anyone keeps the whole law, they are perfect, and no one is. They were forgiven through the sacrifices though.

I find it rather amusing that people think Old Testament believers were saved by keeping the whole law. Isn't it written for by the law shall no one be saved? How were they going to be saved?

Of course it is obvious from the Bible that no one did keep the whole law, but God knew that, that's why he gave sacrifices. The sacrifices spoke of Christ and were able to save the sinner [law breaker]. They were imperfect but they were the law by which God forgave a constantly sinning Israel. I don't know why that is so hard to see.

Unfortunately it was common in Israel to treat the sacrifice lightly because they did not perceive the gravity of their sin. They even neglected the sacrifice, choosing rather to sacrifice to the idols of the Canaanites. Their faith was not in the true God and their lives became wicked, so God judged them.

God accepted the sacrifice of animals because he knew in the fullness of time he would send his son Jesus Christ who is the real and perfect propitiation for sins.

It is faith in God that saves and there is no salvation by any other name than that of Jesus Christ.

Arguments about the indwelling of the Spirit do nothing to reveal that the remission of sin is by the shedding of blood, and it is the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

What we have today is the fullness of what Israel had in part. If God had expected the law to save them there would have been no need for the sacrifice.

 

[Truthfrees]

I seem to miss where anyone says this. If anyone keeps the whole law, they are perfect, and no one is. They were forgiven through the sacrifices though.

Keeping God's holy and perfect laws is an excellent lifestyle, that reaps excellent rewards here on earth. EG Having no other Gods but the Lord and resting on the Sabbath will improve the quality of life. Each of God's commandments when followed will bring excellent results. But it's not a method of salvation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Is there more than one holy spirit?

No, there is not. The key word was 'indwelt' in that response. In the Old Testament they were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

 

[ARBITER01]

Why are we necro'ing 2015 threads that the majority of the people that were in it are gone???

 

[Soyeong]

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God ti be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Faith. See Hebrews 11.

Best answer.