Salt Lake City Bar Under Fire for Its ‘No Zionists Allowed’ Policy

[essentialsaltes]

“As many are, we are horrified by the ongoing genocide in Gaza and are even more horrified to see so many Americans ignore and rationalize ethnic cleansing. That is why we are pleased to announce we are banning all zionists forever from our establishments,” the Weathered Waves bar posted on Instagram.

Its owner, former [no party; winning 7% of the vote] mayoral candidate Michael Valentine, responded to backlash by stressing that “we are banning zionists, not Jews.”

In comments to The Salt Lake Tribune, he said: “It is not antisemitic to say we are anti-genocide. That’s what we’re saying… I literally say in the post I’m not banning Jews. This is not about that.”

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While unwise and unhelpful, this is probably within the owner's rights, as long as he's sincere that it's about banning those who espouse the political position of Zionism, rather than banning Jews.

 

[durangodawood]

So if you think Israel should exist, youre not allowed?

 

[essentialsaltes]

So if you think Israel should exist, youre not allowed?

It's not really clear how he's defining Zionism. And I get the sense he'd do a poor job of doing so if asked.

(Not that Zionism is easy to define, since it does seem to mean different things to different people. But this guy doesn't strike me as having a good grasp on the picture.)

 

[Bradskii]

I literally say in the post I’m not banning Jews. This is not about that.”

Not all Zionists are Jews. But there can't be many Jews, or people who at least identify as Jewish who do not support 'the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.' (dictionary definition).

Leaving aside the obvious observation that Valentine is an idiot, does he want everyone who enters his establishment to sign a waver saying they do not actually support 'the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.'

 

[durangodawood]

It's not really clear how he's defining Zionism. And I get the sense he'd do a poor job of doing so if asked.

I think the basic idea of Zionism was, after centuries of brutal persecutions, to establish a Jewish country where they wouldnt be subject to such perennial abuse.

Taken at face value, I'm for that. But there's 2 problems:

1. Non Jewish people were living in the land the Zionists (and others) chose. Those people would either have to go, or stay in a state defined by their "type" remaining a permanent minority.

2. It seems to have taken on a "manifest destiny" character where Israelis in power seem to want all of the ancient lands where their scriptural ancestors dwelt, where it seems a lot of non Jews currently live.

 

[Desk trauma]

Leaving aside the obvious observation that Valentine is an idiot, does he want…

He wants what he’s getting, free exposure.

 

[Chesterton]

But there can't be many Jews, or people who at least identify as Jewish who do not support 'the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel.' (dictionary definition).

No, there are many religious Jews, both inside Israel and elsewhere, who vehemently oppose the existence of Israel.

 

[durangodawood]

No, there are many religious Jews, both inside Israel and elsewhere, who vehemently oppose the existence of Israel.

Like how common a position is that? Any data?

 

[Chesterton]

I think the basic idea of Zionism was, after centuries of brutal persecutions, to establish a Jewish country where they wouldnt be subject to such perennial abuse.

Taken at face value, I'm for that. But there's 2 problems:

1. Non Jewish people were living in the land they (and others) chose.

Jewish people were living there too.

Those people would either have to go, or stay in a state defined by their "type" remaining a permanent minority.

No, it's not an either/or like that. Twenty percent of the population of Israel is Arab/Muslim, and in terms of quality of life, they do much better than their nearby Arab neighbors. Arabs could have just chosen to live in peace, but they chose war.

2. It seems to have taken on a "manifest destiny" character where Israelis in power seem to want all of the ancient lands where their scriptural ancestors dwelt, where it seems a lot of non Jews currently live.

It's a small minority of religious Jews who want all of the ancient lands, and they are not in power.

 

[Bradskii]

He wants what he’s getting, free exposure.

That did cross my mind. They say any publicity is good publicity. But...having checked out their website it appears to be a reasonably upmarket place. So I'm not sure he'd gain any custom by his actions. But he'd possibly lose some.

I did leave a Google review. But said I couldn't actually comment on the place as I'm not allowed in being a Zionist.

 

[durangodawood]

Jewish people were living there too.

Sure. But thats not a problem, which is why it didnt make it into my list of problems. Non Jews otoh who constitutionally need to remain in minority status - thats a problem by typical western civics standards where people shouldnt be sorted by race or religion in relation to the state.

No, it's not an either/or like that. Twenty percent of the population of Israel is Arab/Muslim, and in terms of quality of life, they do much better than their nearby Arab neighbors. Arabs could have just chosen to live in peace, but they chose war.

It is an either or like that. Whats the third or fourth alternative to the two I mentioned? Stay in a state thats defined as "not for you". or leave.

It's a small minority of religious Jews who want all of the ancient lands, and they are not in power.

They seem to have ascended to power of late. "Manifest destiny" seems to be the part you just dont say 'out loud'.

 

[Bradskii]

No, there are many religious Jews, both inside Israel and elsewhere, who vehemently oppose the existence of Israel.

Whut? Well, there is this:

'Jews who criticize or oppose Zionism are usually from fringe Orthodox sects and maintain that Israel can only be regained miraculously. Jewish anti-Zionists usually firmly believe in the Jewish right to the Land of Israel, but only at the future time of redemption.' Anti-Zionism Among Jews

Can't see those guys queuing up outside a Salt Lake City bar to sample the owners latest cherry flavoured cider.

 

[Desk trauma]

Can't see those guys queuing up outside a Salt Lake City bar to sample the owners latest cherry flavoured cider.

With a total of 6,000ish Jews in the entire state of Utah it’s unlikely any one of any flavor frequented the place to begin with.

 

[Chesterton]

Like how common a position is that? Any data?

No I don't know any exact numbers. You can look it up if interested, but you can see them having a beef with their fellow Jews in D.C. a few months ago.

 

[Bradskii]

With a total of 6,000ish Jews in the entire state of Utah it’s unlikely any one of any flavor frequented the place to begin with.

These guys might get a free beer:

 

[Chesterton]

Sure. But thats not a problem, which is why it didnt make it into my list of problems. Non Jews otoh who constitutionally need to remain in minority status - thats a problem by typical western civics standards where people shouldnt be sorted by race or religion in relation to the state.

It is an either or like that. Whats the third or fourth alternative to the two I mentioned? Stay in a state thats defined as "not for you". or leave.

I don't know what you're talking about. Non-Jews in Israel have all the rights Jews have. They serve the in the Israeli parliament and on their Supreme Court.

 

[Desk trauma]

These guys might get a free beer:

View attachment 343733

Quite the trip for a drink.

 

[Chesterton]

They seem to have ascended to power of late. "Manifest destiny" seems to be the part you just dont say 'out loud'.

Sorry, this part of your quote got cut out. Are you saying they want to rule Gaza? Who in their right mind would want to rule Gaza? Israel pulled out many years ago. And they got rewarded with a massive underground terror base from which to attack them.

 

[Bradskii]

Quite the trip for a drink.

Just had a weird moment...

Wife waiting to go to the gym. Hang on I say, nearly ready. Give me a minute. Why, she says. What are you actually doing?

Um...I'm checking to see how many othodox synagogues there are in central Salt Lake City...

A sigh and a slow shake of the head.

 

[durangodawood]

Sorry, this part of your quote got cut out. Are you saying they want to rule Gaza? Who in their right mind would want to rule Gaza? Israel pulled out many years ago. And they got rewarded with a massive underground terror base from which to attack them.

Im thinking more of west bank areas where the "patriarchs" walked. Im not aware of any particular ideological interest in Gaza.