Sabbath?

[SayaOtonashi]

I was misunderstanding the sabbath as not being change but many first century writers did agree with the sunday bring the lord day and for Christians to worship

 

[bugkiller]

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1355-is-the-law-of-moses-torah-still-binding

The ten commands aren't the old covenant but rather all the books until the new testments are the old covenant. We muold st be perfect to follow all the covenant which is not the 10 commands but more than that it;s all the laws given with in the old covenant which you must follow. If you fail to do that then you have sinned for trying to keep that law.

Please read Deut 5.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1355-is-the-law-of-moses-torah-still-binding

The ten commands aren't the old covenant but rather all the books until the new testments are the old covenant. We muold st be perfect to follow all the covenant which is not the 10 commands but more than that it;s all the laws given with in the old covenant which you must follow. If you fail to do that then you have sinned for trying to keep that law.

Very well written article. I highly recommend its perusal especially by the opposition here. Personally I do not think they can refute its statements.

Many thanks for the link.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Again Jesus was sent to die for own sins and to make a law of grace.
Are Followers of Jesus Under the Law or Grace?.

Great reference material.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Exactly when did the Sabbath lose it's blessing?

There are many ways to properly respond to yor question. Are you really asking if the 7th day sabbath is still required to be observed?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Sorry, Saya...I'm sure buried in this thread...most of these scriptures were addressed somewhere. I know that I've addressed several of them already. I simply do not have the time to keep going around in circles. If you would like to talk via PM, I'm up for that.

I will ask you this and please do not misunderstand me, I am not ignoring Paul, but can you prove your case using Jesus' Words or just the Old Testament...because Paul and the rest of the initial apostles could do that.

How can one answer your questions about the NC and ignore it at the same time?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Your making a rather large assumption if you think everyone thinks the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. I couldn't disagree with you more, and so does the Augsburg Confession of 1530, pretty much the defining document of the Protestant movement.

Yes Jesus did not teach the law.

JN 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Ok, so, there's 2 camps. The ones that claim Sabbath was changed and the ones that claim that Sabbath was done away with.

I have posted a plethora of scriptures in which Elohim says that Sabbath was to be kept forever AND scriptures that show that some of the festivals will be kept during the millenium. Do you know the ones that I am talking about?

These threads get to large and posts get lost.

And just 2 passages even from the OT show the sabbath passes and so do the 10 Cs as a requirement for righteousness.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Don't mistake me for SDA...I am Messianic. I believe NONE of the Law was done away with. What I am saying is that a vague verse here and there in the NT is used to somehow "undo" what God made clear in the Old. That includes the dietary, festivals, Sabbath, etc. Christians have tried to understand Hebraic thought with a Greek mindset. As long as they do that, much of the scriptures will remain misunderstood.

Acts 21:
17 And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will[c] hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing,[d] except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having been purified with them, entered the temple to announce the expiration of the days of purification, at which time an offering should be made for each one of them.

Wait, what? Paul was being accused of not keeping Torah and the brethren told him what to do to show people that was not true and he did it? What?

Second issue to point out of this scripture is the 3 DIETARY restrictions that were given to Gentiles.

Scripture is pretty clear if you just read it.

So is this a lie -

7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

If this is true then Jesus is a sinner just like us according to your statement - I believe NONE of the Law was done away with.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Grasping at straws, I see.

Nice diversion, the Sabbath never was changed to Sunday, it just became obsolete.

Money wasn't/isn't given on the Sabbath/ Sunday for offerings? Good one. I'd like to see documentation of that!

Where would you find the idea of "firstfruits" being associated with a day? Why would a person gather together their offerings on Sunday and hold them until the Sabbath meeting? Read the Bible for what it says!

Excellent point. Do they indeed bring their offerings on a non worship day?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Study the feasts of the Lord. Firstfruits is one...the day that Yeshua rose on. Just like Sabbath, which God made on the seventh day...it will be celebrated forever. YOU can change Sabbath, but God didn't.

Let's look at that scripture again.

1Cor 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: 2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.

Actually, they held their collections til Paul got there.

Would you like to actually debate scripture? And, any thoughts on the post that I posted previously proving Paul followed Mosaic Law? See Acts 21.

You need to examine the issue and passage much closer. A word study word by word would do you much good. I could present such here but you would only reject it. Thus I will allow you to be on your own.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Jesus fulfilled the law so we are no longer under the mosic law.

Christ was born while the law was in force (Galatians 4.4).
b. Christ completed the requirements of the law while he was on earth. He obeyed it perfectly (Matthew 5.17-19; Romans 10.4; Galatians 3.13; Colossians 2.13-14; Hebrews 8-10).
c. Christ removed the need for the Mosaic Law or the Old Covenant. Therefore the purpose and force of the Mosaic Law ended with Christ (Ephesians 2.15-16; Hebrews 8-10).
8. How is the Church related to the Law?
a. The law was never given to the church. The church is not supposed to live under the Mosaic Law (Acts 15.5-29; Romans 3.21-22; 7.6; 2 Corinthians 3.7-11; Galatians 2.21; 5.1-13).
b. The unbeliever Jew may think that he is now under the law, but the believer Jew of the church age is now a part of the church and is not under the law (same church Scripture and 1 Corinthians 10.32).

I would only add Gal 3:19 which shows the period of the law is over by using the word until.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

You have to reject that Jesus set a new convent.

"Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, According to the faithful mercies shown to David. Behold, I have made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander for the peoples. (Isaiah 55:3-4)

Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,...But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. (Jeremiah 31:31) Establishes a new covenant for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood. (Luke 22:20)

But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises... For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And I will write them upon their hearts. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people. (Hebrews 8:6-10)

bugkiller

 

[tzadik]

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1355-is-the-law-of-moses-torah-still-binding

The ten commands aren't the old covenant but rather all the books until the new testments are the old covenant.

Outrageous. Unless of course you believe that Luke 1:6 is not part of the "Old Covenant"?
There is absolutely NO proof from Scripture to support the claim that the "old covenant" is a composition of books.

We muold st be perfect to follow all the covenant which is not the 10 commands but more than that it;s all the laws given with in the old covenant which you must follow.

I don't think you understand what it means to keep the Law.
Was David lying in Psalm 119:34, 44, 55, 60?
Was James lying about Paul when he said that he walked orderly keeping the Law? (Acts 21:24)

If you fail to do that then you have sinned for trying to keep that law.

God KNEW we as flawed humans were going to fail. If He demanded perfection or bust, what kinda God would He be? EVERY SINGLE person in the world, from Adam until me and you HAVE broken God's commandments. We have disobeyed His Will and gone against His ways. THe solution is NOT to get rid of the Holy Law of God, but rather it is to start making our hard hearts, soft. The solution is to repent from our own wicked ways and with His help walk in His, drawing ever closer to Him with each day, knowing that EVERYTHING we need to know about living a life pleasing to Him, is written in His WORD. (GENESIS - REVELATION)

 

[tzadik]

Sorry, Saya...I'm sure buried in this thread...most of these scriptures were addressed somewhere. I know that I've addressed several of them already. I simply do not have the time to keep going around in circles. If you would like to talk via PM, I'm up for that.

I will ask you this and please do not misunderstand me, I am not ignoring Paul, but can you prove your case using Jesus' Words or just the Old Testament...because Paul and the rest of the initial apostles could do that.

What a great question!
I don't think you'll get an answer though.

They would be hard-pressed to find even ONE reference from the Messiah or the Tanakh to support their views.

 

[bugkiller]

Outrageous. Unless of course you believe that Luke 1:6 is not part of the "Old Covenant"?
There is absolutely NO proof from Scripture to support the claim that the "old covenant" is a composition of books.


I don't think you understand what it means to keep the Law.
Was David lying in Psalm 119:34, 44, 55, 60?
Was James lying about Paul when he said that he walked orderly keeping the Law? (Acts 21:24)

God KNEW we as flawed humans were going to fail. If He demanded perfection or bust, what kinda God would He be? EVERY SINGLE person in the world, from Adam until me and you HAVE broken God's commandments. We have disobeyed His Will and gone against His ways. THe solution is NOT to get rid of the Holy Law of God, but rather it is to start making our hard hearts, soft. The solution is to repent from our own wicked ways and with His help walk in His, drawing ever closer to Him with each day, knowing that EVERYTHING we need to know about living a life pleasing to Him, is written in His WORD. (GENESIS - REVELATION)

That is the exact purpose of the law. Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

What a great question!
I don't think you'll get an answer though.

They would be hard-pressed to find even ONE reference from the Messiah or the Tanakh to support their views.

We give them and they get tossed out like the trash.

bugkiller

 

[mrs94]

We give them and they get tossed out like the trash.

bugkiller

Where did you use the Tanankh to support your views?

 

[SayaOtonashi]

what of the fact the second century Christians wrote about sunday and not 3 century like many have being saying. Since the 3 century Roman empress is made Christianity a offical religion of holiday and mixed many of the holidays together such as Easter. This disprove that theory

 

[SayaOtonashi]

Also if Easter is Passover which happened on the 14 day of the month than Paul would have to be in jail of the fourteen day. After the 14 day is the day of unleavened beard. [SIZE=+1]is also believed by some people that the word "until" in Ex.12:6 means "up to" or the beginning of the fourteenth. [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Ex. 12:6[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] - "And ye shall keep it ([/SIZE][SIZE=+1]up[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] ,not in Hebrew) until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening." The same Hebrew word also means "through till the end" as we see in [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Ex. 12:15,18[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] - "Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]until[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel . . .In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, you shall eat unleavened bread, [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]until[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] the one and twentieth day of the month at even." If "until" meant the beginning of the day then we would be permitted to eat leaven on the seventh day of the feast (Abib 21).

Notice also this crucial point; The Hebrew of Ex.12:18, "on the fourteenth day of the month at even," is the exact same phrase in Josh.5:10 declaring the time when Joshua kept the Passover. In Ex.12:18 it means the end of the 21st day and in Josh.5:10 it means the end of the fourteenth. Lev.23:32 shows this phrase to mean the end of the ninth day.

It is often said that Ex.12:6-14 refers to Abib 14, especially the phrase "this night" in verse 12. If we understand that "between the evenings" (vs.6) means approximately 3:00 pm, then obviously "this night" must mean Abib 15. It all depends on your understanding of the meaning of "between the evenings." Notice, however, verse 14. "This day" (the day Yahweh passed over them) shall be a [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]memorial[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] ; and you shall keep it a [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]feast[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] to Yahweh throughout your generations; you shall keep it a [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]feast[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] forever." Whenever Yahweh memorializes a day He does so by making it a Sabbath just as He memorialized His finished work of Creation, the Day of Atonement, Trumpets, etc. He also memorialized the day He passed over Israel by making it a Sabbath, Abib 15. That is why the term "feast" is used in this verse. The Hebrew word is "chagag" which was also used in Ex.23:14; "Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year." A chagag is a special time of rejoicing and dancing. Certainly, Abib 14 cannot be considered a chag or chagag in any way. It is merely the day that the Passover lamb was sacrificed.

Let's look at a few more Old Testament verses. [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Deut.16:1[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] - "Observe the month of Abib, and keep the Passover unto Yahweh thy Elohim: for in the month of Abib Yahweh thy Elohim brought thee forth out of Egypt by night." Since Moses told the Israelites not to come out of their houses until morning (Ex.12:22), some people assume that they came out of Egypt the following night, Abib 15. The phrase "brought thee forth out of Egypt" refers to the period of time beginning with the killing of Egypt's firstborn males. [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Ex.13:14-16[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] - "And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say unto him, [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]By strength of hand Yahweh brought us out from Egypt[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] , from the house of bondage: And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that Yahweh slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to Yahweh all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem. And it shall be for a token upon thine hand, and for frontlets between thine eyes: for by strength of hand Yahweh brought us forth out of Egypt." That final act of Yahweh's strength is what delivered the Israelites or what "brought them forth." That act occurred at midnight on Abib 15. The following morning the Israelites left in a great hurry. They did not have time to leaven their bread (Ex.13:33,34). If the killing of the firstborn occurred at midnight on Abib 14 the women would have had at least ten hours to leaven their bread before they left at sundown.

It is taught that the killing [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]and eating[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] of the Passover Lamb takes place on Abib 14. Ex.12:43-50 outlines this eating concerning strangers. Notice verse 51, "And it came to pass [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]the selfsame day[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] , that Yahweh did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies." The "selfsame day" can only refer to the previous verses concerning eating. The selfsame day the Passover was eaten they came out of Egypt; Abib 15 (Num.33:3). Those that keep Passover at the beginning of Abib 14 believe it was eaten that night followed by the exodus the next night.

[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]II Chr.35:1-19[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] recounts Josiyah's Passover. Verse 14 suggests the sacrifices and offerings took place hours before nightfall in order to complete them. Since twilight is only a period of approximately 40 minutes, how could they kill, bleed, clean and cook so many offerings and sacrifices in so short a time? This verse takes place [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]after[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] they had roasted the Passover offerings which would have taken several hours.

It is implied in verse 14 that the priests were busy with burnt offerings from before sunset until night and therefore, the Levites took charge of the passover lambs themselves. Yet, verse 11 implies that the priests sprinkled the blood [of the passover lambs] from their hands. Verse 14 then implies that [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]after[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] they finished sacrificing the lambs for the people [and by extension, [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]after[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] the priests finished sprinkling the blood for the people], the Levites began sacrificing lambs for themselves and the priests. Once the priests finished sprinkling blood they began offering burnt offerings until night.

Beginning of the 14th proponents use verses 16 & 17 to teach, "The whole service of [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]the Passover[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] [including eating] was [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]observed[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] that day (in one day) just as Moses prescribed; that is, on the 14th." (emphasis & brackets mine). The KJV says, "So all the service [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]of Yahweh[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] was [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]prepared[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] the same day to keep the passover..." Notice the difference in the emphasized words.

Moffatt's translation is often used to support that view. It says, "In this way, the whole service of [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]holding the passover in honor of[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] the Eternal and sacrificing burnt-offerings on the altar of the Eternal was carried out that day..." The phrase in bold type is not in the Hebrew. It simply says, "all the service of Yahweh was prepared the same day..." Moffatt's version leads one to believe that it is talking about a Passover service or ceremony whereas the Hebrew shows the service to be [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]people[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] prepared to conduct the passover ceremony. This can be seen by verses 2-5,10,14-16. Each family division had a specific service to perform and to prepare for. Verse 16 says that all those that had a service to perform were prepared the same day, Abib 14.

The last Old Testament verse we should read is [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Eze.45:21[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] . "In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten." This verse does not say "and a feast of seven days" thereby making a distinction between Passover and Unleavened. According to Strong's Concordance, Passover can mean either the festival or the victim (the sacrifice). Passover in this verse would refer to the festival. Verses such as Ex.12:6; Nu.9:5; and Lev.23:5 refer to the victim. Many people do not understand this and erroneously assume the killing and eating must take place on the same day. Once the Passover is sacrificed at the end of the fourteenth it is eaten as the first meal of the feast.
[/SIZE]

Numbers 28:16-17, “And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD. And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.”​