Reasons not to support Trump and the Republican Party

Evan Jellicoe

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I have no problem with your position. Because we live by our beliefs. But it's wrong for us to use that as a basis to demand that others believe as us and use the force of governmental law to do so. And furthermore to use the Bible as a reason chastise those that don't believe that we should not.

If you want the givernment and a society to help the poor, I have no issue with that. I absolutely believe we as a society should help those in need. We can argue and debate as to how that should occur and how that should look, but that is a political stance. But to throw out the "Jesus said we should help the poor, therefore the givernment should take money from people and give it to others" is a violation of scripture. Scripture does not teach that.

Because you are picking and choosing which scriptural teaching you want the government to enforce. And how you want them to do so.

I was thinking that you and I are in complete agreement until I got to your last sentence. But I think you still misunderstand me. I am saying "Jesus said we should support the poor" in this forum, which is a specifically Christian forum. I don't have a problem talking to other Christians by sharing what I believe the Bible says and means. But on secular political boards I stress that the reason I believe what I do is because of how I view the Bible. I never push non-Christians to believe what the Bible says when the discussion is political. And I never openly push to make converts to Christianity. On the other hand, by expressing my own religious views openly, I am creating a possible path for somebody to think about the Christian faith in a way that they haven't done before, and perhaps develop a more positive attitude toward it. Perhaps even to the point of actually becoming a Seeker. But all of that is in the context of sharing what I personally believe, without making any demands on others.

Even here, on a Christian board, I may have more freedom to argue that all Christians should see the Bible the way I do, but I don't insist on it. Freedom of conscience, which I believe in deeply, means that I myself have to be OK with it if another person simply does not agree with me. I might keep on presenting arguments in the hope of persuading, but I will try never to explode in anger and pronounce somebody else to be a "bad person" because they are "too stupid to see the plain truth" or some other such expression of frustration and hate. Hate is never the way to win an argument; it is only the way to express self-righteousness.
 
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rjs330

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I was thinking that you and I are in complete agreement until I got to your last sentence. But I think you still misunderstand me. I am saying "Jesus said we should support the poor" in this forum, which is a specifically Christian forum. I don't have a problem talking to other Christians by sharing what I believe the Bible says and means. But on secular political boards I stress that the reason I believe what I do is because of how I view the Bible. I never push non-Christians to believe what the Bible says when the discussion is political. And I never openly push to make converts to Christianity. On the other hand, by expressing my own religious views openly, I am creating a possible path for somebody to think about the Christian faith in a way that they haven't done before, and perhaps develop a more positive attitude toward it. Perhaps even to the point of actually becoming a Seeker. But all of that is in the context of sharing what I personally believe, without making any demands on others.

Even here, on a Christian board, I may have more freedom to argue that all Christians should see the Bible the way I do, but I don't insist on it. Freedom of conscience, which I believe in deeply, means that I myself have to be OK with it if another person simply does not agree with me. I might keep on presenting arguments in the hope of persuading, but I will try never to explode in anger and pronounce somebody else to be a "bad person" because they are "too stupid to see the plain truth" or some other such expression of frustration and hate. Hate is never the way to win an argument; it is only the way to express self-righteousness.

I don't actually remember now it you are one that uses scripture to try and say government should force people to give to the poor based upon what the Bible says. There are too many believers that do that. So if you are not one of those then I apologize.

It just is inconsistent to say that the since the Bible teaches we should give to the poor, therefore we should force people to give, but then turn around and say, that doesn't apply to any other scriptural admonition.​
 
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Evan Jellicoe

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I don't actually remember now it you are one that uses scripture to try and say government should force people to give to the poor based upon what the Bible says. There are too many believers that do that. So if you are not one of those then I apologize.

It just is inconsistent to say that the since the Bible teaches we should give to the poor, therefore we should force people to give, but then turn around and say, that doesn't apply to any other scriptural admonition.​

Well, I am saying that as a Christian I support a strong social safety net, and I'm saying it because of my Christian beliefs, but I'm not telling legislators that they have to agree with me about the Bible. I'm simply stating my own beliefs, and encouraging them to support the poor based on logical reasoning (the greatest good for the largest possible number.)

On this forum my argument is that there is nothing in the Bible that prohibits Christian voters from going along with tax-funded programs that aid the poor. That is, charity is not in a special category where tax funding should not happen, even though tax funding can be used to underwrite a sports stadium or a public transit system. Let the majority decide on all those issues.

So, I support using taxation to provide a social safety net. I believe in that because of how I interpret the Bible. I think it is perfectly OK to debate the proper interpretation of the Bible here on a Christian site. But I don't use Biblical arguments to persuade a conservative legislator; I use what I consider to be practical, secular reasoning, such as arguing that "demand side" economics will actually result in a stronger economy overall than "supply side" economics, and that the perceived problem of "legalized theft" implied in the term "redistribution of wealth" can best be answered by saying that what should really be happening is the prevention of ungodly concentration of wealth to begin with.

But that is a separate discussion.
 
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Albion

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Well, I am saying that as a Christian I support a strong social safety net, and I'm saying it because of my Christian beliefs, but I'm not telling legislators that they have to agree with me about the Bible. I'm simply stating my own beliefs, and encouraging them to support the poor based on logical reasoning (the greatest good for the largest possible number.)
Then what do you think about "two wrongs don't make a right?" Or "The means don't justify the ends?"

If it is good to give to the poor, it is not good to steal from other people in order to get the money with which to help the poor?
 
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rjs330

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Well, I am saying that as a Christian I support a strong social safety net, and I'm saying it because of my Christian beliefs, but I'm not telling legislators that they have to agree with me about the Bible. I'm simply stating my own beliefs, and encouraging them to support the poor based on logical reasoning (the greatest good for the largest possible number.)

On this forum my argument is that there is nothing in the Bible that prohibits Christian voters from going along with tax-funded programs that aid the poor. That is, charity is not in a special category where tax funding should not happen, even though tax funding can be used to underwrite a sports stadium or a public transit system. Let the majority decide on all those issues.

So, I support using taxation to provide a social safety net. I believe in that because of how I interpret the Bible. I think it is perfectly OK to debate the proper interpretation of the Bible here on a Christian site. But I don't use Biblical arguments to persuade a conservative legislator; I use what I consider to be practical, secular reasoning, such as arguing that "demand side" economics will actually result in a stronger economy overall than "supply side" economics, and that the perceived problem of "legalized theft" implied in the term "redistribution of wealth" can best be answered by saying that what should really be happening is the prevention of ungodly concentration of wealth to begin with.

But that is a separate discussion.

And you shouldn't use the Bible to attempt to persuade a Christian legislator either. The Bible does not advocate for a government forcing someone to give in order to fulfill the admonition for us to give. And we should not use the Bible as a scolding method against other believers either.

I've heard many times how Christians who don't support a stronger welfare state are not following the Biblical admonition to help the poor. If we are going to claim that then it's just as correct to claim that believers who do not support laws prohibiting homosexuality are not following the Biblical admonition against it. It's not right to do that in EITHER case. Giving to the poor is a biblical admonition to individuals AND the church.
 
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Speedwell

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Then what do you think about "two wrongs don't make a right?"

If it is good to give to the poor, it is not good to steal from other people in order to get the money with which to help the poor?
Does that not depend on the assumption that taxation is theft?
 
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Sketcher

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Oh please. Show me where it says "this only applies to Jewish farmers", of which virtually every person in those days was. When you say "If we examine it" what you seem to mean is "If I try to make this mean something more in line with what I wish instead of what it plainly says, I don't have to change or admit I am wrong".
It's easy. It's in the verses themselves, and it's not even hidden. If you need me to make it easier, though:

Leviticus 23:22
"'When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the LORD your God.'"

Deuteronomy 24:19
"When you reap your harvest in your field and forget a sheaf in the field, you shall not go back to get it; it shall be left for the alien, the orphan, and the widow, so that the Lord your God may bless you in all your undertakings."

Leviticus 19:9-10
When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the Lord your God."

Romans 14:4 is talking about judging those who don't follow Jewish dietary laws. Have to even read that passage yourself?
I have, many times. And it's not just Jewish dietary laws. It's also whether any meat sold in Roman markets should be eaten, and what days are holier than others. These were all examples of the concept Paul was teaching.
 
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Evan Jellicoe

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Then what do you think about "two wrongs don't make a right?" Or "The means don't justify the ends?"

If it is good to give to the poor, it is not good to steal from other people in order to get the money with which to help the poor?

I’m honestly not clear on what you mean here by “Do two wrongs make a right?” What two wrongs, specifically? Are you referring to taxation being “legalized theft” and to that alleged Constitutional prohibition on the government being in the “charity business”? I am going to go with those two, for now. Let’s deal with both.

The assertion about taxation is one I used to agree with, but no longer do. I was taught shortly after I graduated from Bible college that taxation is legalized theft, which we as Christians may not have a choice about because force will be used against us if we resist, but at least we know that when the government takes our money, we are aware that the action is inherently immoral.

That’s the form in which I was first taught the idea, anyway, and I accepted it because, like too many Bible-believing Christians, I was eager to accept whatever teachings were plausibly based on the conviction that anything secular was inherently wrong in God’s sight. Of course, I had what I thought was a good answer for the objection “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s. . .” but I no longer agree with what I used to believe. I was mistaken back then. Now I believe that human government, even by unbelievers, is permitted by God, and that in a democratic form of government the will of the majority is a legitimate basis for rule, and taxation is a necessary attribute of government. Oh, I still agree that the only perfect form of human government would be a theocracy, but the only theocracy that I will submit to is one either with Jesus Himself in charge, or one with a man in charge who has undeniable Divine backing, such as Moses had. And since neither Jesus nor any latter-day Moses is available to fill the office of World Leader, I will place my support behind our current form of government in America.

With that established, I personally believe (no chapter and verse involved; I use the same form of logical reasoning that anybody might use to make their decision) that the money that the very rich “earn” is not necessarily “earned” to begin with; it is “appropriated.” Rather than view taxation as theft, I view underpaying workers as theft. I am no Marxist (classical Marxism does not and cannot work), but the law of supply and demand is not neutral; it favors those who have greater leverage. Most of the time, business owners have greater leverage to pay as little as they possibly can, and when they can, they generally do. So the real problem, in my opinion, is not that the government wants to redistribute wealth. The real problem is the ungodly concentration of wealth in the first place. Oh, I suppose you could defend that on the basis of “survival of the fittest,” but Christians aren’t supposed to be in favor of Darwinism. So I reject the notion that those who have accumulated the most wealth are necessarily the ones who deserve to have it. And if we are not able to prevent them from concentrating too big a share of the wealth into the own hands, I have no reservations about fixing things after that happens.

So, I approve of an adequate social safety net because I believe in the concept for reasons that are sufficient for my own conscience, and if enough other people believe in it for reason that satisfy their conscience, then it is a simple matter of majority rule, which brings up the second possible “wrong,” which is the teaching that government is Constitutionally and Biblically wrong when it gets into the “charity” game. It may be legitimate to argue this point of view, because any point of view is fair game for supporting or opposing. That’s what democracy is all about. I just happen to believe that the argument is mistaken on both counts; it is neither unconstitutional nor unBiblical. To combine the points, I see nothing wrong with using tax money to fund programs that achieve at least a minimal amount of material security for all: nobody in America should starve, nobody should be homeless, nobody should have to live in wretched living conditions, and nobody should be denied reasonable medical care. Ever.

Anybody is of course free to disagree, and I will never fault anybody for simply disagreeing. By the same measure, nobody should fault me for using logical arguments for laying out my own position.
 
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Evan Jellicoe

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And you shouldn't use the Bible to attempt to persuade a Christian legislator either. The Bible does not advocate for a government forcing someone to give in order to fulfill the admonition for us to give. And we should not use the Bible as a scolding method against other believers either.

I can if the legislator is using the Bible to guide his own life and his actions as a legislator. The key word is "persuade." And as long as the ultimate purpose is demonstrably secular and does not favor or penalize a particular religious viewpoint, it passes Constitutional muster. If using the Bible as a persuasion tool were disallowed, what would happen to the abortion debate, which is totally about what some people think the Bible says?

But note that the relevance of religion cuts both ways, both in terms of favoring and also penalizing. If you really want to push on the idea that government shouldn't take tax money and give it to an individual for any reason, I am going to ask why is it then OK to take tax money and give it to the owner of a sports team to help build a new stadium. Why is supporting entertainment acceptable, but preserving life not acceptable? Both goals should fall equally under the rule that if the majority wants it, it should be allowed. I hate wasting tax money on a stadium, but if most of the voters support it, then I accept their decision. And if most voters support an expansion of the safety net, those who voted against it should also be content to accept it.
 
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rjs330

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I can if the legislator is using the Bible to guide his own life and his actions as a legislator. The key word is "persuade." And as long as the ultimate purpose is demonstrably secular and does not favor or penalize a particular religious viewpoint, it passes Constitutional muster. If using the Bible as a persuasion tool were disallowed, what would happen to the abortion debate, which is totally about what some people think the Bible says.

But note that the relevance of religion cuts both ways, both in terms of favoring and also penalizing. If you really want to push on the idea that government shouldn't take tax money and give it to an individual for any reason, I am going to ask why is it then OK to take tax money and give it to the owner of a sports team to help build a new stadium. Why is supporting entertainment acceptable, but preserving life not acceptable? Both goals should fall equally under the rule that if the majority wants it, it should be allowed. I hate wasting tax money on a stadium, but if most of the voters support it, then I accept their decision. And if most voters support an expansion of the safety net, those who voted against it should also be content to accept it.

You can, bit it would be an incorrect usage of scripture. Just like that legislator. It would be an incorrect usage of scripture to apply it to everyone and say we are going to take people's money and give it to others because scriptures tells us to give. No that legislator should use scripture and apply it to HIS own life and give of his own accord. And HIS church should also be giving. But for him to apply that and say we should force people to give through taxation because the Bible tells us to give, is an incorrect application because no one can point to ANY scripture that speaks to that. And neither Jesus nor the disciples had anything to say about forced giving.

It's interesting to note that there is such a thing as church discipline. However, giving was never a part of that. That had to do with sinful acts.

Now taxation is a completely different matter. The government can tax us and can spend our money on various programs. We have a political mechanism for all of that and it's called a vote. We have taxation and representation. And if the representatives vote for spending tax money on certain things, then that's that. We can certainly let our representatives know our feelings on the subject, but our ultimate say comes from our vote.

I honestly am opposed to taking tax money and giving it to individuals without some SEVERE restrictions and limitations. We give away far to much of our money. That's why we have such a huge deficit. If the investment into something does not yield dividends to the tax payer, we should not be giving tax money to it in general. The military would be an exception because the dividend there is to keep us in freedom and safety.
 
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Evan Jellicoe

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Now taxation is a completely different matter. The government can tax us and can spend our money on various programs. We have a political mechanism for all of that and it's called a vote. We have taxation and representation. And if the representatives vote for spending tax money on certain things, then that's that. We can certainly let our representatives know our feelings on the subject, but our ultimate say comes from our vote.
That is exactly my position.

I honestly am opposed to taking tax money and giving it to individuals without some SEVERE restrictions and limitations. We give away far to much of our money. That's why we have such a huge deficit. If the investment into something does not yield dividends to the tax payer, we should not be giving tax money to it in general. The military would be an exception because the dividend there is to keep us in freedom and safety.
Oh, that is another big topic for discussion. The idea that government can be modeled as though it were either a household or a business (both of which have to keep expenses equal to or less than revenue, or else they go bankrupt), has proven to be a false model. Right now we are in fiscal territory that, two or three decades ago, was regarded as impossible to sustain. Back then, projected annual deficits and total debt at today's level was viewed as absolutely certain to result in ruination, something like Germany actually saw following World War I. And yet here we are, and the government is not only not broke, we're not even looking at elevated inflation rates.
In short, everything that economists used to think they knew about government spending is being called into question by actual experience.
One other thing that actual experience has shown, though, is that when government institutes "austerity" measures to combat a perceived crisis, the result is always severe suffering among those at the bottom of society. So, practicing austerity makes people suffer, but high deficit spending has not yet destroyed the U.S. government.

It's time for intelligent economists to come up with a better model to use for actual government budgeting. The old model does a bad job of predicting; it seems like it is not necessary to abandon poor people in order to save government from collapsing.
 
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inhiminen

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You can, bit it would be an incorrect usage of scripture. Just like that legislator. It would be an incorrect usage of scripture to apply it to everyone and say we are going to take people's money and give it to others because scriptures tells us to give. No that legislator should use scripture and apply it to HIS own life and give of his own accord. And HIS church should also be giving. But for him to apply that and say we should force people to give through taxation because the Bible tells us to give, is an incorrect application because no one can point to ANY scripture that speaks to that. And neither Jesus nor the disciples had anything to say about forced giving.

It's interesting to note that there is such a thing as church discipline. However, giving was never a part of that. That had to do with sinful acts.

Now taxation is a completely different matter. The government can tax us and can spend our money on various programs. We have a political mechanism for all of that and it's called a vote. We have taxation and representation. And if the representatives vote for spending tax money on certain things, then that's that. We can certainly let our representatives know our feelings on the subject, but our ultimate say comes from our vote.

I honestly am opposed to taking tax money and giving it to individuals without some SEVERE restrictions and limitations. We give away far to much of our money. That's why we have such a huge deficit. If the investment into something does not yield dividends to the tax payer, we should not be giving tax money to it in general. The military would be an exception because the dividend there is to keep us in freedom and safety.

You have such a decifit because of tax breaks to rich. They don't spend the extra they make buying domestic. Military is the first you should cut. They haven't been keeping you safe. They are sowing unrest around the world. America's love for violence is diabolical.
 
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lordjeff

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You have to make a distinction: In our secular government, no law should ever be specifically religious in intent. But I as an individual am perfectly free to support a law because of what I believe the Bible says. That is why I support the Democrats in expanding welfare; I personally believe that a secular society is doing right to take care of its weaker members. A Muslim could make the same argument by referring to what the Qur'an says. But legislators should only consider whether secular reasoning supports a policy.

BTW, the Bible is the foundation for my belief in helping the poor, but my detailed reasons for rejecting Republican arguments for limited government are purely based on logical reasoning. My bedrock secular position can be described as "the greatest good for the largest number" rather than 'the greatest overall good, even if only a few actually reap any benefit." (i.e., a rising tide most emphatically does not lift all boats.)

But that's a different discussion.
A secular body is not doing right if their goal is to entrap which is what they're doing most of the time.
 
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Pommer

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It's easy. It's in the verses themselves, and it's not even hidden. If you need me to make it easier, though:

Leviticus 23:22
"'When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the LORD your God.'"

Deuteronomy 24:19
"When you reap your harvest in your field and forget a sheaf in the field, you shall not go back to get it; it shall be left for the alien, the orphan, and the widow, so that the Lord your God may bless you in all your undertakings."

Leviticus 19:9-10
When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. I am the Lord your God."


I have, many times. And it's not just Jewish dietary laws. It's also whether any meat sold in Roman markets should be eaten, and what days are holier than others. These were all examples of the concept Paul was teaching.
What if then, with the fields harvested “pretty good” and still having some out on the stalks, to have the local, or state, or federal folk come out and finish the rest of the harvesting to put away in storage for “the poor”?

instead of grain, it’s money, that’s all.
 
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ACandleInthe Shadows

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I know it might seem strange to GOP supporters given all the gerrymandering and voter suppression coming from their leadership, but what's hypocritical in going with the candidate who got the most votes?

Yeah, it's totally not suspicious about how Buttigieg and Klobuchar dropped out before Super Tuesday, and Elizabeth Warren after. It's totally not suspicious about this whole superdelegate nonsense.

I agree. What's wrong with the candidate who got the most votes? We know that if the three stayed in the race, Bernie would've had most of them and it would've led to a "brokered convention". So much for the candidate that gets the most votes.
 
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SimplyMe

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Yeah, it's totally not suspicious about how Buttigieg and Klobuchar dropped out before Super Tuesday, and Elizabeth Warren after. It's totally not suspicious about this whole superdelegate nonsense.

I agree. What's wrong with the candidate who got the most votes? We know that if the three stayed in the race, Bernie would've had most of them and it would've led to a "brokered convention". So much for the candidate that gets the most votes.

Yes, so "suspicious" that this primary followed the same formula as every other primary (for both Republicans and Democrats) since 1952. Candidates run out of money and drop out, or see their polling data drop out and get out while they still have some power, and trade the power for influence at the convention and jobs in the new administration.

If Buttigieg or Klobuchar, much less Warren, had showed any sign of having a chance of the nomination, you might have a point. Instead, all three's polling numbers had tanked (and Warren crashed and burned on Super Tuesday) before they quit and their money was depleted.
 
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Sketcher

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What if then, with the fields harvested “pretty good” and still having some out on the stalks, to have the local, or state, or federal folk come out and finish the rest of the harvesting to put away in storage for “the poor”?

instead of grain, it’s money, that’s all.
1) According to the command, it was only the poor/foreigners/widows/orphans who could glean. No one (especially the landowner) was allowed to do that for them.
2) You can't really measure how much a government is to tax non-agricultural wealth from a gleaning law. You would have to look at laws aimed at potters, artisans, blacksmiths - anyone whose income doesn't come from a field that produces anything useful.
3) Using the OT Law to make social policy outside of Israel is a dangerous thing. If anyone would be dogmatic about applying these three verses, remember that the Law is a package deal. If you invoke the authority of the Law, you follow as much of it as possible. Is stoning idolaters and witches next? Is everyone in the country going to be obligated to cease all work from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday?
4) If the Law is not going to be applied evenly like that, then one must admit either that they are lazy enough to not follow the whole law, or that the laws they don't want to enact are not laws that we are obligated to live under, but we may take inspiration from them as it is expedient to do so. Which would relegate these gleaning laws as just as optional as the laws on Sabbath or idolatry or whatever that they don't want to enact. And if they're optional, there is no obligation to follow them or adapt them.
 
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