Questions on Intercession of the Saints

[Berserk]

I have often tried praying for intercession from Mary and other saints and the experience leaves me frustrated and empty.
But I'm not a debunker; I'd love to believe they hear my prayers and intercede for me. I guess I just need some sort of verifcation experience.

 

[IceJad]

I have often tried praying for intercession from Mary and other saints and the experience leaves me frustrated and empty.
But I'm not a debunker; I'd love to believe they hear my prayers and intercede for me. I guess I just need some sort of verifcation experience.

Curious, I would believe that a Methodist wouldn't pray for saintly intercession. John Wesley isn't too fond of such practise. At least according to him while the practise is a fondly thing, it has no basis in Scripture.

From what I can gather from the responses here (those that do so) is that pray to saints are akin to a group prayer. That we are in one body along with the angels in praying to God.

Whether we pray with/without intercession of the saints, I personally don't think we can expect a verified experience. God answers prayers according to His Will and Grace. All we can do is have faith that our prayers are heard and the Lord will move accordingly.

 

[FireDragon76]

Curious, I would believe that a Methodist wouldn't pray for saintly intercession. John Wesley isn't too fond of such practise. At least according to him while the practise is a fondly thing, it has no basis in Scripture.

Keep in mind Wesley lived at a time when advocating for Catholicism (or any practices deemed too "Catholic) in England could bring severe penalties.

Churches in England in Wesley's time often didn't even handle candlesticks on the altar (if they had an altar at all), priests had controversies about wearing the most minimal of vestments, and communion was often just once a year. The Catholic Revival had yet to happen in the Church of England, spurred by the rise of the Romantic movement and increased scholarship on early Christianity (such as discovery of the Didache).

 

[Ceallaigh]

What I know for 100% certain is that our Lord Jesus Christ gave us several instructions on prayer, and in every single instance, prayer was to directed to Father God exclusively. The only mention of incession given by Jesus was asking things of the Father in His name (John 14:13).

Paul also tells us that God the Holy Spirit intercedes in our prayers to the Father (Romans 8:26).

 

[IceJad]

What I know for 100% certain is that our Lord Jesus Christ gave us several instructions on prayer, and in every single instance, prayer was to directed to Father God exclusively. The only mention of incession given by Jesus was asking things of the Father in His name (John 14:13).

Paul also tells us that God the Holy Spirit intercedes in our prayers to the Father (Romans 8:26).

My believe as well. A direct relationship has been established when our Lord Jesus fulfilled His mission to redeem us unto Himself. No longer there is a need to sacrifice or intercession by the temple priest. Our Lord Jesus is all that in one.

However I'm just trying to understand the concept of intercession of the saints. What are the core values and basis in Scriptures.

 

[FireDragon76]

My believe as well. A direct relationship has been established when our Lord Jesus fulfilled His mission to redeem us unto Himself. No longer there is a need to sacrifice or intercession by the temple priest. Our Lord Jesus is all that in one.

However I'm just trying to understand the concept of intercession of the saints. What are the core values and basis in Scriptures.

The Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura didn't exist for 1500 years. Christians in earlier times had different religious epistemologies, as is indeed the case for the majority of the world's Christians today (Protestantism is a minority group among the global Christian community, representing about a third of Christians, the rest of whom all consider religious tradition important).

 

[IceJad]

The Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura didn't exist for 1500 years. Christians in earlier times had different religious epistemologies, as is indeed the case for the majority of the world's Christians today (Protestantism is a minority group among the global Christian community, representing about a third of Christians, the rest of whom all consider religious tradition important).

Sola Scriptura didn't exist as a concept but it doesn't mean there is no precedence for it. All religious traditions and rites still reference back to some Scriptural passage. Whether the passages use are primary teachings is the question. Not all passages can be considered core teachings. If traditions are built upon non primary passages then there is a case to review such traditions.

In later ages the more traditionalist Churches have move closer to Protestantism teachings such as saved by grace. Traditions while nice are not always right. Traditions can be built up by repetition of a single exceptional instance of non-conformity suited only for a unique case. While it is not wrong for that instance doesn't make it generally acceptable in all cases.

Example like how Joshua commanded the sun and moon and the Lord listened. One instance for a specific case. If the Israelites wanted they could make commanding the sun and moon a tradition. Remember even the Old Testaments are written long after the passing of their events.

Joshua 10:14
There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the LORD listened to a human being. Surely the LORD was fighting for Israel!

Some traditions like the Passover are still observed by the Jews. It is written in the Old Testaments that they should continue the tradition to pass down what the Lord has done for their people. A tradition commanded by the Lord with a primary passage. There is no need for interpretation or any reading between the lines.

Exodus 12:14
“This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the Lord—a lasting ordinance.

 

[Ceallaigh]

My believe as well. A direct relationship has been established when our Lord Jesus fulfilled His mission to redeem us unto Himself. No longer there is a need to sacrifice or intercession by the temple priest. Our Lord Jesus is all that in one.

However I'm just trying to understand the concept of intercession of the saints. What are the core values and basis in Scriptures.

Basis in Scripture is what I was addressing. It's not there. Not even a hint of it. Unless one wants to appeal to a passage in 2 Maccabees 15 where someone has a vision of Jeremiah in heaven. Then there's Samuel's ghost rising from the dead to talk to Saul in 1 Samuel 28, but that was through witchcraft, not prayer. Matthew 22:32 is also brought up, but it doesn't have anything to do with prayer.

Now in this instance I'm not arguing against intercession of the Saints. I'm just pointing out that the practice is not found anywhere Scripture. So one has to look elsewhere regarding its origins.

 

[FireDragon76]

Sola Scriptura didn't exist as a concept but it doesn't mean there is no precedence for it. All religious traditions and rites still reference back to some Scriptural passage.

Not necessarily. Traditional church architecture, the notion of using a cross as a symbol for Christians, even the amount of water to use in baptism, all of those are extrabiblical and rest on a tradition of some kind.

 

[Valletta]

Sola Scriptura didn't exist as a concept but it doesn't mean there is no precedence for it. All religious traditions and rites still reference back to some Scriptural passage. Whether the passages use are primary teachings is the question.

It apparently caught on when two Christians were quite taken by an Arab theologian who preached that the Quran was the ultimate and sole authority. They applied it to the Bible.

 

[Ceallaigh]

It apparently caught on when two Christians were quite taken by an Arab theologian who preached that the Quran was the ultimate and sole authority. They applied it to the Bible.

Is there any citation for that? It sounds like something that was made up to discourage appealing to the authority of scripture.

 

[Valletta]

Is there any citation for that? It sounds like something that was made up to discourage appealing to the authority of scripture.

Holy Scripture is the Word of God, but Holy Scripture itself does not claim sole authority nor did Christ's Church ever cede over such authority. That is by far the biggest refutation of Sola Scriptura. The two Christians were William of Ockham and Marsilius of Padua.