Job 33:6

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I am not suggesting you find a link between dinosaurs and man. As I am sure you will state we are descended from mammals not a direct descendent of Dinasours.

What I am stating is you need to give me the evidence. I am yet to see it. If you are so sure you can beat me you had better get your links up.

Without all the flaming this time:
@FutureAndAHope

Tiktaalik is a great one. Flat head with eyes on top (for peeking above the surface of water like a crocodile), robust rib cage and pectoral girdle to work against the weight of gravity above water, wrist bones, spiracles for breathing air, a neck so that it could turn it's head independently of it's body. And it also had scales of a fish.

It was also found in the geologic column between fish (first observed in the cambrian) and reptiles (first observed in the carboniferous).

Some young earth Creationists try to make a case for tetrapods predating Tiktaalik, however their response doesn't explain how Tiktaaliks locality was predicted, doesn't address why Tiktaalik is observed in the Devonian between fish and reptiles and not elsewhere in the geologic column, doesn't take into account that the polish zachelmie trackways have been reinterpreted as fish traces (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10420940.2015.1063491), doesn't address why no tetrapod bone material has ever been discovered prior to Tiktaalik, etc. Among other things.

To date, somewhere around a dozen Tiktaaliks have been found.

For more transitional fossils: List of transitional fossils - Wikipedia



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Job 33:6

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Without all the flaming this time:
@FutureAndAHope

Tiktaalik is a great one. Flat head with eyes on top, robust rib cage and pectoral girdle to work against the weight of gravity above water, wrist bones, spiracles for breathing air, a neck so that it could turn it's head independently of it's body. And it also had scales of a fish.

It was also found in the geologic column between fish (first observed in the cambrian) and reptiles (first observed in the carboniferous).

Some young earth Creationists try to make a case for tetrapods predating Tiktaalik, however their response doesn't explain how Tiktaaliks locality was predicted, doesn't address why Tiktaalik is observed in the Devonian between fish and reptiles and not elsewhere in the geologic column, doesn't take into account that the polish zachelmie trackways have been reinterpreted as fish traces (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10420940.2015.1063491), doesn't address why no tetrapod bone material has ever been discovered prior to Tiktaalik, etc. Among other things.



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And at the end of the day, we have a fossil succession which demonstrates that all fossils are transitional and make up this larger order of fish>amphibian>reptiles>mammal/bird, and cambrian > Devonian> carboniferous > Triassic/Jurassic, with fish/amphibians of the devonian (ex. Tiktaalik), amphibian/reptile transitions in the carboniferous/permian (ex. Frogamander), reptile/mammal transitions in the permian-triassic (ex therapsids) and reptile/bird transitionals in the jurassic (ex archaeopteryx and other theropod/bird hybrids).

And then further there is a fossil succession in plants and of course other invertebrates and basically anything that can produce fossils falls within this order.

Screenshot_20210526-074609~2.png

Screenshot_20210526-074614~2.png



People who deny evolution or are young earth Creationists, typically just try to deny all of this information. But for those who actually study the topic, it's really not even remotely questionable. It's as simple and as well understood as concepts such as the sun being hot.
 
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AV1611VET

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People who deny evolution or are young earth Creationists, typically just try to deny all of this information.
As they should.

It's misleading.

Take away all those fancy words down the side of that chart (Precambrian up to Quaternary) and replace them with years (4004 BC up to AD 2021) and what have you got?

Nothing.

Evolution charts just accordion all this stuff out, then assigns zillions of years to each level.
 
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Gene Parmesan

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As they should.

It's misleading.

Take away all those fancy words down the side of that chart (Precambrian up to Quaternary) and replace them with years (4004 BC up to AD 2021) and what have you got?

Nothing.

Evolution charts just accordion all this stuff out, then assigns zillions of years to each level.
Precambrian? More like Preshmambrian, right? Evolution can take a hike!
 
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Bungle_Bear

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As they should.

It's misleading.

Take away all those fancy words down the side of that chart (Precambrian up to Quaternary) and replace them with years (4004 BC up to AD 2021) and what have you got?

Nothing.

Evolution charts just accordion all this stuff out, then assigns zillions of years to each level.
Really? If that were true we should have documented records of some of those transitions. Please present them.
 
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AV1611VET

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I'm ready to be educated. Why can't the time before the Cambrian be called Precambrian?
It's been reverse-plutoed and is now referred to as a supereon.
 
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AV1611VET

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Really? If that were true we should have documented records of some of those transitions. Please present them.
Some of what transitions?

By concatenating the DNA pool, then accordion-ing out shallow time into deep time, you end up creating "missing links" all over the place.
 
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Job 33:6

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Thanks. Well I noticed the other post was open and I started typing a response but I guess I didn't make the cut.

And sometimes it's difficult, in my opinion, to get to the valuable information when 99% of forum discussions are all just people blabbering about random stuff. We all know that young earth Creationists typically don't like actually talking about science, so I think we should take opportunities to do so, as there are seldom people who actually may be interested.
 
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Job 33:6

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And one other thought for @FutureAndAHope

I think it's also important to understand how the Earth is layered and how we understand the fossil succession.

I shared a diagram above that looked like this:
Screenshot_20210526-074609~2.png



But if we look more specifically at the earth, it might look something more like this:
Screenshot_20210526-104449~2.png



And, this is just a cross section taken of the state of Wyoming. There's nothing particularly special about this location, it's just a map I pulled off of Google.

But, what's important is that, layers that are deeper are older than layers that are shallower. And this logically must be true, just as a paper on the bottom of a stack of papers on a desk must have been laid down prior to papers on top of a stack. The lower layers must rest at the bottom first. And this is just kind of a basic philosophical truth of reality, and there's not much to explain but hopefully it makes sense to everyone who reads it.

And so fossils in lower layers are considered to be older, or were laid down earlier in Earth history than fossils of shallower layers that were laid down at later points of time in Earth history.

And really at the heart of it, all we do is see what fossils are in each layer and just put them in order.

I think some young earth Creationists try to make it out to be some complex topic to confuse people, but it really isn't when you get down to the bread and butter of what the fossil succession really is.

Some deniers will say that fossils are used to date rocks and that rocks are used to date fossils and that it's circular and makes no sense. But in truth, the fossil succession really just comes down to the concept of superposition and understanding that lower layers of rock are older than shallower layers. This basic logical concept is really at the heart of all of geology and paleontology. And there really isn't much deniers can do about this.

Sometimes deniers will say, "well earthquakes can twist rocks around and out of order".

And while this is true, it should also be understood that rocks that have been twisted and broken and folded and flipped by earthquakes and other tectonic activity are readily observable and identifiable. Just like if someone took a shovel and started twisting and breaking and folding and flipping and smashing someone's flower bed in their backyard, it becomes readily evident if this has happened to rocks, in which case, they don't need to be used to establishing an order of fossils. There are plenty of rocks that are perfectly smooth and flat to pick from, we have the entire Earth full of them.

Some deniers might also say that maybe all of these layers were instantaneously laid down all at once. And while that's physically impossible (they can't instantly all deposit at once, else they'd be inside one another as opposed to on top or bottom of one another), We also have an uncountable quantity of features that also suggest a long expansive time between deposition of these major bodies of rock. Such as having paleozoic angular unconformities for example. Or having faults that only cross cut certain layers and not others.

To describe, see the Wyoming diagram above where the orange and brown shallow layers aren't obstructed/offset by faults, but the lower green layers are. This difference suggests suggest that there was a temporal separation between when the lower layers were deposited, when the fault offset the lower layers, and when the upper layers were deposited.

And this is just off the top of my head, but it's just obvious to anyone who studies this stuff that these layers were not all laid down within seconds of each other as some young earth Creationists seem to believe.

We also have features like slicken sides, cataclastic deformation and ophiolites, other forms of unconformities, and even innumerable trace fossils and footprints and nests and complex borough networks and All sorts of things found in between and all throughout these layers that suggest that time passed between their deposition.

We also have metamorphic facies produced by specific pressures and temperatures that we can use to further understanding the history of a region, particularly during regional metamorphosis.

And given that time has passed between these layers, any amount of time even if it were just a year or two is enough to establish a fossil succession. And obviously there's a ton more information that helps us really get down into how we know that the planet is far older than 6,000 years and is in actuality billions of years old. But strictly speaking about transitional fossils, these basic fundamental concepts are all anyone needs to establish the fact that the fossil succession truly exists. And that is step one to understanding the theory of evolution as well. If we want to take this approach. Because when we really start to look at this order of fossils, we come to find that theory of evolution explains their order perfectly.

Anyway, the point is that a basic understanding of geology is needed to understand the theory of evolution. And if you don't understand these basic concepts, then you evolution simply won't make sense to you.
 
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pitabread

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Take away all those fancy words down the side of that chart (Precambrian up to Quaternary) and replace them with years (4004 BC up to AD 2021) and what have you got?

Is it:

A) A thorough misunderstanding of geological timescales
B) A young-Earth creationist fantasy
C) An attempt to derail the thread
D) All of the above
 
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Oneiric1975

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As they should.

It's misleading.

Take away all those fancy words down the side of that chart (Precambrian up to Quaternary) and replace them with years (4004 BC up to AD 2021) and what have you got?

Not geology, that’s for sure.
 
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Oneiric1975

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Some of what transitions?

By concatenating the DNA pool, then accordion-ing out shallow time into deep time, you end up creating "missing links" all over the place.

When I read a book it is always best to skip every other page. That way all books are shorter and make zero sense.
 
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Taodeching

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And sometimes it's difficult, in my opinion, to get to the valuable information when 99% of forum discussions are all just people blabbering about random stuff.

It is unfortunate

We all know that young earth Creationists typically don't like actually talking about science, so I think we should take opportunities to do so, as there are seldom people who actually may be interested.

In the past Christianity was known for intellectual pursuits but certain factions took over Christianity and that has gone out the window
 
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Ophiolite

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When I read a book it is always best to skip every other page. That way all books are shorter and make zero sense.
Well, it works for me with AV's posts, so why not?
 
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