Orthodox View on Masturbation - Is it a Sin?

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Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

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Oblio said:
So does that mean that catholics believe that sex, for purposes other than procreative is sinful. This seems to fly counter to Carly's assertion that the Church does not teach that sex for purposes other than procreation is sinful. :confused:
You're right. The more I think about that statement, the more I realize that it doesn't line up with the previous statements about the Catholic stance.
 
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isshinwhat

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The key phrase is "open to conception." That doesn't have to be the primary reason for intercourse every time a couple is intimate, but the sexual union must not be separated into parts, so to speak. It must be kept corporate. Non-procreative acts, when brought to completion, keep the emotionally unitative and pleasurable aspects of the union, but they are not "open to conception." This is a disordered reflection of the unselfish, creative love that marital relations signify. To quote a wonderful statement made by one of your Orthodox brothers on page five, "it should be a reflection of the relationship of the Trinity: two distinct persons in an insoluble relationship. The kind of love that should be expressed is unselfish and completing. The sex act, as the physical expression of that relationship, would necessarily not be individual, but cooperative."

In the case of a couple who are infertile, they are still open to conception. They are not providing a barrier to the sexual union, though their openness may never bear fruit.

God Bless,

Neal
 
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Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

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isshinwhat said:
The key phrase is "open to conception." That doesn't have to be the primary reason for intercourse every time a couple is intimate, but the sexual union must not be separated into parts, so to speak. It must be kept corporate. Non-procreative acts, when brought to completion, keep the emotionally unitative and pleasurable aspects of the union, but they are not "open to conception." This is a disordered reflection of the unselfish, creative love that marital relations signify. To quote a wonderful statement made by one of your Orthodox brothers on page five, "it should be a reflection of the relationship of the Trinity: two distinct persons in an insoluble relationship. The kind of love that should be expressed is unselfish and completing. The sex act, as the physical expression of that relationship, would necessarily not be individual, but cooperative."

In the case of a couple who are infertile, they are still open to conception. They are not providing a barrier to the sexual union, though their openness may never bear fruit.

God Bless,

Neal
Good answer. Allthough, in the Orthodox Church anyway, the priest can give a couple permission (not sure what the proper term is) to use certain types of birth control in special circumstances (probably only NFP or barrier methods). This is only for isolated circumstances like lack of financial means to have a child, or health reasons, or to space out births. In this case, the procreation part of it is taken "off the table", so to speak. For all you Orthodox folks, would a priest tell you to stop having sex if you weren't trying for a baby?
 
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Oblio

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For all you Orthodox folks, would a priest tell you to stop having sex if you weren't trying for a baby?

I do not think so.

As in all things, we are to strive for an emptying of our selfish desires and maximising our love for others within the will of God. Non-procreative sex can accomplish either of these ends depending on our hearts. The implementation details in the lives of specific Christians are left to the couple and their spiritual father.
 
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BlestVessel

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The Bible gives the principles of our Lord. If a statement can't be supported by or align with the written Word of God which He gave to all mankind, then why would we believe it?

With all respect, the idea that we just trust in His work and go along for the ride so to speak with a simple sinners prayer (a general confession) and the Bible under your arm is a modern Protestant idea and has no basis in Christianity.
I was not at all suggesting we do not fully repent of the sins we commit, yet in the case of one receiving our Lord, when the truth has been supressed in an individual a great length of time and they formerly denied what was right vs. what was wrong, it seems monotonous and unuseful to review one's lifetime of sins. It is both faith and action, yes, but where does He ask of us THIS action? As believers, daily, we acknowledge and come to full repentance of our sins, but prior to that, are we not to simply trust the Lord to shed the old self and walk into His abundant mercies for all we can't recall? There isn't any conceivable way one can remember every sin committed over the course of a single year, let alone many, so aren't we to trust Him to work in us using our past, rather than pretend that we can do a good work in ourselves? In no way do I want to be slothful as many who claim to be Christians in North America, but I'm concerned that this is not accepting the grace of Christ in fullness. He accepted the man on the cross next to Him because of what was in his heart, he knew he'd been wrong and asked Christ to remember Him in His Kingdom. If it is necessary for us to remember, I truly believe that God is faithful to bring it to recollection or to work it in us, even without our knowing. To suggest He won't or can't unless we go backward is where I was concerned there might be a lack in faith in this belief.

....how can we be expected to change it's direction......
We cannot. Only our Lord can change a person, we are dust without Him. We do not change us, but we pursue Him and in Him is the resurrecting power, the forgiveness, the mercy and grace, and the transforming powers which we seek in order to glorify Him. He who began a good work in us WILL be faithful to complete it. Religiosity suggests we can become righteous through our own efforts, by our own zeal, but our God asks of us not that we strive to live, but to die to ourselves, to surrender, to succumb to His dealings, to rest in Him and His sufficiency. This does not mean we do nothing but rest, this means we live in His strength and by His efforts, and He knows already every single thing we have and have not done. So why fret and concern yourself by what is covered by the Blood? Is His power and strength not enough that He can cleanse us from all these?

I realize I'm in a bit of a debate mode and don't mean to offend at all. It is GOOD for us to exhort one another and brothers and sisters are to encourage each other in the things of our Lord and call each other to His principles. So if I offend you, I apologize. I am aimed at getting at the root of this disagreement. Whether I am mistaken or you are is irrelevant, but the truth is our cause and purpose.

Much Love,
April
 
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Orthodox Andrew

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BlestVessel said:
The Bible gives the principles of our Lord. If a statement can't be supported by or align with the written Word of God which He gave to all mankind, then why would we believe it?
Does 10 X 10 not equal 100? Does the earth not revolve around the sun? Does gravity not exist?

My point is that many truths exist that are not mentioned in the Bible.:)
 
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Matrona

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Andreas said:
Does 10 X 10 not equal 100? Does the earth not revolve around the sun? Does gravity not exist?

My point is that many truths exist that are not mentioned in the Bible.:)
She's talking about SPIRITUAL truths, not scientific and mathematic truths.
 
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Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

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BlestVessel said:
The Bible gives the principles of our Lord. If a statement can't be supported by or align with the written Word of God which He gave to all mankind, then why would we believe it?

April
The Christian Church (Orthodoxy) is not sola scriptura, meaning that we do not rely on the Bible ALONE as our only written source of guidance. Many, many important Church traditions have been handed down to us from holy men and women of God. These traditions do not oppose the the truth given to us in the Bible, but they are inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore necessary for God's people to grow and become more Christ-like. What Andreas said is true. The Bible is only a small portion of what the Church has given us.
 
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MariaRegina

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Somewhere in the New Testament it states:

Confess your sins to one another.

And then there are the famous words of Jesus:

Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven,
Whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

How does the church know what sins to forgive, and what sins to retain? if we con't confess them all.
 
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Orthodox Andrew

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Matrona said:
She's talking about SPIRITUAL truths, not scientific and mathematic truths.
Define spirtual truths?

Does not all truth matter? If the Bible says the earth is flat, and we believe in sola scripture, how do we understand that verse if we do not understand it by using outside means?
 
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isshinwhat

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As in all things, we are to strive for an emptying of our selfish desires and maximising our love for others within the will of God. Non-procreative sex can accomplish either of these ends depending on our hearts. The implementation details in the lives of specific Christians are left to the couple and their spiritual father.


Oblio,

I have read many texts by the Fathers which state the opposite of what you have said, Latin and Byzantine. Do you have any references which mention allowing non-creative sex. This is a serious, non-accusatory question for those who are not familiar with me.

God Bless,

Neal
 
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Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta

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Well, some of the problem is that there really are a great number of spiritual truths in the Bible (obviously) that the sola scriptura people don't even know about because the protestants only use a chopped up version of the Bible. Things like praying for the dead, for example, are only talked about in Maccabees, which is deuterocannonical, right? [or apocryphal] So sola scriptura folks are only basing their opinions on a portion of the scriptures. So really, I guess you should say "sola parta scriptura" (I added the "a" on the end for continuity).;) ^_^
 
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Matrona

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Andreas said:
Define spirtual truths?

Does not all truth matter? If the Bible says the earth is flat, and we believe in sola scripture, how do we understand that verse if we do not understand it by using outside means?
I don't object to rejecting sola scriptura, I object to your inappropriate response to BlestVessel's post.

She was asking why should we believe in things having to do with God that are not mentioned in the Bible, "having to do with God" being implied. It is a good and worthy question for us coming from a person of the Protestant perspective. In the absence of valid Holy Tradition and valid apostolic succession, sola scriptura is a natural and reasonable practice.

To this day I am grateful that when I posed this question as an inquirer myself, my friend behaved kindly and respectfully towards me, and he didn't fire off some quickie non sequitur, vaguely condescending remark. Instead, he gave me a thorough explanation of Orthodox Holy Tradition and apostolic succession.
 
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Orthodox Andrew

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Matrona said:
I don't object to rejecting sola scriptura, I object to your inappropriate response to BlestVessel's post.

She was asking why should we believe in things having to do with God that are not mentioned in the Bible, "having to do with God" being implied. It is a good and worthy question for us coming from a person of the Protestant perspective. In the absence of valid Holy Tradition and valid apostolic succession, sola scriptura is a natural and reasonable practice.
I guess God didn't create the sun? And I guess gravity has nothing to do with God?
 
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Matrona

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Andreas said:
I guess God didn't create the sun? And I guess gravity has nothing to do with God?
Of course He has plenty to do with both of those things, but neither of those things has to do with Christian doctrine, things like whether or not we should baptize infants or whether Mary remained a virgin forever.
 
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Orthodox Andrew

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Matrona said:
Of course He has plenty to do with both of those things, but neither of those things has to do with Christian doctrine, things like whether or not we should baptize infants or whether Mary remained a virgin forever.
There are plenty of people that reject all serious things that are not in the Bible, if they feel it hurts their interpretation. Remember Galileo and the Pope? All things are relevant. Not just what we designate as spiritual, and non-spiritual
 
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