My Atmosphere Challenge

[Yttrium]

Which scenario would you rather go with?

Some institute that says we got it, but can't tell us how?

Or the Bible, which testifies of God's powerful ability to call it into existence, purer than the air in Lapland?

The institute's version sounds more likely to me. But I consider the Earth to likely be billions of years old. If God created everything, then He took the slow path, and arranged for things to happen in their good time.

In your version of creation, God created everything in only six days, so the atmosphere would need to be provided pretty quickly. But he made it mature, so it looked like it had developed over several billion years. Which means that, for all intents and purposes, it might as well be the same as the institute's version.

 

[Halbhh]

???

I don't have a problem.

Other than asking what I thought was well-educated people a question so simple my cat could answer it.

That you cannot understand Genesis 1 correctly/fully without John 1 is one thing I said above, but not all.

 

[dlamberth]

In this case, science is dead wrong.

I have to go with the science perspective because it's based on something way closer to reality than is the Biblical perspective of creation.

 

[AV1611VET]

In your version of creation, God created everything in only six days, so the atmosphere would need to be provided pretty quickly. But he made it mature, so it looked like it had developed over several billion years. Which means that, for all intents and purposes, it might as well be the same as the institute's version.

You realize that oxygen is a very corrosive gas, don't you?

But prior to the Fall, there was no corrosion.

The air we breathe today was nothing like the air in Adam's time.

 

[AV1611VET]

I have to go with the science perspective because it's based on something way closer to reality than is the Biblical perspective of creation.

You mean because science is based on death, decay, muck, and mire?

 

[dlamberth]

You mean because science is based on death, decay, muck, and mire?

During those first years of the formation of the atmosphere, as indicated in your OP, volcanic gases played an important part in all of that. This was long before life rose on this planet. I can visualize where eventually muck and mire was part of the evolutionary process of the earth, maybe even were life first rose. But to the OP, there is no way that I'm able to accept the Creation story of an ancient middle-eastern tribe.

 

[dlamberth]

You realize that oxygen is a very corrosive gas, don't you?

But prior to the Fall, there was no corrosion.

You don't know that. You were not there.

 

[Yttrium]

You realize that oxygen is a very corrosive gas, don't you?

Pretty much by definition.

But prior to the Fall, there was no corrosion.

Why? I have never heard this from any other Christian ever. Of course, given a literal 6-day creation, that wouldn't really be an issue anyway. The Fall wouldn't be very long after creation.

The air we breathe today was nothing like the air in Adam's time.

Why? I have never heard this from any other Christian ever. What do you think were the constituent gases? And please don't say it was pure oxygen, because the land surface of the Earth would have burned up within a few days after the Fall.

 

[AV1611VET]

You don't know that. You were not there.

I wasn't at the empty tomb either.

But guess what?

Jesus rose!

Matthew 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Mark 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

Luke 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

 

[AV1611VET]

Why? I have never heard this from any other Christian ever.

Ask any other Christian ever if there was death, decay, corrosion, rust, decomposition, cuts, bruises, tooth decay, or the like before the Fall.

 

[Yttrium]

Ask any other Christian ever if there was death, decay, corrosion, rust, decomposition, cuts, bruises, tooth decay, or the like before the Fall.

Well, I knew about the death and biological decay stuff. But corrosion is just a normal chemical process. Oxygen combining with things is kind of important for biologic processes too.

Don't really know where to ask around the forums. It's a bit too much of a religious thing for the science area, and the apologetics area got shut down.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, I knew about the death and biological decay stuff. But corrosion is just a normal chemical process. Oxygen combining with things is kind of important for biologic processes too.

Don't really know where to ask around the forums. It's a bit too much of a religious thing for the science area, and the apologetics area got shut down.

Looks like you're SOL.

(Short On Luck)

 

[Yttrium]

Looks like you're SOL.

(Short On Luck)

Well, I looked around the Theistic Evolution area a little. Apparently, a common answer from old Earth Christians is that the Fall led to spiritual death, and that physical death was around as long as biologic organisms (a few billion years). Corrosion would also be present, although I still don't see why it wouldn't be in any case. For young Earthers, the point is really moot, since there's such little time between creation and the Fall.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, I looked around the Theistic Evolution area a little. Apparently, a common answer from old Earth Christians is that the Fall led to spiritual death, and that physical death was around as long as biologic organisms (a few billion years). Corrosion would also be present, although I still don't see why it wouldn't be in any case. For young Earthers, the point is really moot, since there's such little time between creation and the Fall.

Here's the definitive passage, which will be difficult for atheists to understand:

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

The "creature" mentioned above is all of God's creation.

Let me paraphrase for clarity:

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of [God's creation] waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For [God's creation] was made subject to [entropy], not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because [God's creation] itself also shall be delivered from [entropy] into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain [due to entropy] together until now.

And now you see why I say we should never stray outside of Genesis 1 & 2, because people will bring up the Fall, the Flood, the Resurrection, and anything and everything but the events of the Creation Week.

 

[Yttrium]

Here's the definitive passage, which will be difficult for atheists to understand:

Well, I understand it fine. The issue appears to be that you consider corrosion to be a form of decay caused by the Fall. This certainly isn't a universal Christian outlook, and I don't consider it justifed myself. Corrosion can certainly be inconvenient to us these days, since we like to use metal so much, but it's just a normal chemical process, and it can be useful to produce a number of compounds.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Ask any other Christian ever if there was death, decay, corrosion, rust, decomposition, cuts, bruises, tooth decay, or the like before the Fall.

Yes, I think there was death, decay, corrosion, rust, decomposition, cuts, bruises, tooth decay and the like....... before "the Fall," whatever the Fall really was, whether historically speaking OR merely theologically speaking via an ancient Israelite/Mosaic narrative.

IOW, I think it is OBVIOUS that death and mortality is implied as being present before Adam and Even arrived on the scene in the Edenic narrative. I've always wondered why other Christians today all too often don't see what looks to me, via hermeneutical analysis, to be this implication.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Here's the definitive passage, which will be difficult for atheists to understand:

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

The "creature" mentioned above is all of God's creation.

Let me paraphrase for clarity:

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of [God's creation] waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For [God's creation] was made subject to [entropy], not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because [God's creation] itself also shall be delivered from [entropy] into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain [due to entropy] together until now.

And now you see why I say we should never stray outside of Genesis 1 & 2, because people will bring up the Fall, the Flood, the Resurrection, and anything and everything but the events of the Creation Week.

I think you're doing too much eisegesis here, AV.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Either way, there was an atmosphere.

Whether it was one molecule, or half a planet in size.

I think you've encountered the Sorites paradox; I suggest that a single molecule cannot be an atmosphere. An atmosphere is comprised of a gas or gases. Gases are a state of matter involving widely separated particles - collections of atoms and/or molecules - that can be described by their emergent statistical (thermodynamic) properties (e.g. they have temperature and pressure).

How many atoms or molecules are needed to make an atmosphere? I don't know - what's the smallest number of grains of sand that make a pile?

 

[pgp_protector]

Not even comparable to what you have in the OP in the slightest.

Do you really expect them to understand why though?

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, I understand it fine.

Um ... okay.

The issue appears to be that you consider corrosion to be a form of decay caused by the Fall.

Correct.

This certainly isn't a universal Christian outlook,

Seriously, would it matter if it was?

After all, every single Christian who ever lived, alive today, and will be alive tomorrow believes IN THE BEGINNING GOD.

That is 100% agreement.

Not 99, not 99.9, not 99.99, not 99.999.

100%

And it doesn't amount to a hill of beans to atheists and other types of unbelievers.

So if you're willing to use our disagreements as a valid argument; are you willing to use our agreements as well?

I say you're not.

What say you?

... and I don't consider it justified myself.

That's because you're looking at it from today's standards.

After the Fall.

Corrosion can certainly be inconvenient to us these days,

Key words: "these days."

But corrosion didn't exist prior to the Fall.

... since we like to use metal so much, but it's just a normal chemical process, and it can be useful to produce a number of compounds.

Yup -- today.