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ArcticFox
To glorify God, and enjoy him forever.
We all know our tendencies to look at Bible characters and see them as 'super spirituals.' In a way, some of them were. But, we cannot forget that the only thing that made them super, besides their obedience, was how God empowered them to be obedient and do the things they did.
They say behind every great man is a great woman. Behind every great Christian is a great God, who empowered and gives them the ability to be great.
Mary is an excellent role model. We can learn much from her, both genders can, though especially women.
However, like Peter and Paul, I am certain she would tell you the same thing as they did:
Acts 14:15 "Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them.
Of course, Mary would probably have said she was a woman and not a man!
It obscures the beauty and wonder of Mary's obedience when we ascribe to her such a special place as to pray to her and to call on her name for assistance. She can provide no such assistance. Although many who call on her name would agree that she does not provide the assistance, I still believe it is a confusion of the prayer life to direct prayers to her. I believe that a Scripturally informed view would lead to prayer being directed only towards the Father, Son, and/or Holy Spirit (with the name God or Lord being used as acceptable of course).
They say behind every great man is a great woman. Behind every great Christian is a great God, who empowered and gives them the ability to be great.
Mary is an excellent role model. We can learn much from her, both genders can, though especially women.
However, like Peter and Paul, I am certain she would tell you the same thing as they did:
Acts 14:15 "Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them.
Of course, Mary would probably have said she was a woman and not a man!
It obscures the beauty and wonder of Mary's obedience when we ascribe to her such a special place as to pray to her and to call on her name for assistance. She can provide no such assistance. Although many who call on her name would agree that she does not provide the assistance, I still believe it is a confusion of the prayer life to direct prayers to her. I believe that a Scripturally informed view would lead to prayer being directed only towards the Father, Son, and/or Holy Spirit (with the name God or Lord being used as acceptable of course).
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TheListener
Save a cow - eat a vegetarian!
Asking a die-hard protestant to explain Marian doctrine is like trying to get a die-hard Muslim to explain the Trinity.
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Rick Otto
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"Don't pretend you know me"
(your own words)
Small wonder that translation was punished by death in the middle(dark) ages.
Pope Pius IX Eneffabilis Deus (1854), "Let the most dear children of the Catholic Church hear these words and with more ardent zeal of piety, religion and love, proceed to worship, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary."
pretending worship doesn't mean worship is ignorant, especialy when "pray to" is in the same breath.
Ignorance is thinking that years of study changes lies into truth, or thinking that you can say whatever you want and then say it means whatever you say.
it is both laughable and sad that plain language cannot survive "your interpretation" even when it stares you in the face & falls from the lips of your own authorities.
(your own words)
Small wonder that translation was punished by death in the middle(dark) ages.
Pope Pius IX Eneffabilis Deus (1854), "Let the most dear children of the Catholic Church hear these words and with more ardent zeal of piety, religion and love, proceed to worship, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary."
pretending worship doesn't mean worship is ignorant, especialy when "pray to" is in the same breath.
Ignorance is thinking that years of study changes lies into truth, or thinking that you can say whatever you want and then say it means whatever you say.
it is both laughable and sad that plain language cannot survive "your interpretation" even when it stares you in the face & falls from the lips of your own authorities.
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http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/worship;_ylt=Ag6uteufcyhjLrVt1xsRx7qsgMMF
wor·ship
(wûr
sh
p) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]NOUN: [/SIZE]
Now your no longer ignorant.
Peace
wor·ship
(wûr
[SIZE=-1]NOUN: [/SIZE]
- <LI type=a>The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
- The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
- Ardent devotion; adoration.
- often [FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Worship[/SIZE][/FONT] Chiefly British Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: [SIZE=+0]Your Worship.[/SIZE]
Now your no longer ignorant.
Peace
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I only pray to Jesus and God. DOn't talk to Mary, ever. Don't need to. The pope has no authority over me, God does, and He isn't complaining.
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StoneDeaf
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I think it's an issue because 1) many people don't seem clear on what a saint is in the first place, and 2) most people can't understand why prayerful worship isn't soley reserved for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
The original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic words that were translated into the word “saint,” mean righteousness or goodness, or consecration and divine claim and ownership. They are not primarily words of character, but convey what a believer's relationship to God ought to be about-- someone being set apart as His own, for His purposes. Seeing it in this light it's no wonder that nothing is more frequent in Paul than the name of "saints" given to all Christians, as in Romans 1:7 8:27 12:13 15:25,31 16:2.
The Greek word, incidentally, shows up more in the New Testament than the Hebrew does in the Old Testament. Both of these words have more to do with being God's Property (to borrow from Kirk Franklin) rather than to any individual (like Saint Aidan, Saint Emo, Saint Swithens).
What bothers me is that the English word "saints" can’t be improved upon in some way. If translators used "consecrated ones" that might bring out some clarity about the relationship to God that’s involved here. No matter what, for better or worse, it’s seems very hard to remember that consecration is just the setting apart of the individual as “GP” or as part of the body of Christ. Also, being a saint is not about being good boys and girls, per se, just that one is set apart by God as His own. Ideally, the godly character of a believer ought to inevitably rise, (well, okay, at least eventually) as the old man sinks away. The thought of the holy character of the "saints" (Saint Aidan, Saint Emo, Saint Swithens) obscures the real thought of the New Testament writers.
In the particular sense given to us by New Testiment writers, the “consecration" idea was carried throughout the early ages of Christianity. But that ended. The well-known ideas many believers hold onto now are applied to special individuals, those folks declared to be saints by an act of the church rather than than by admission to its membership. This “new” idea came from the church of Rome as she assumed the power to make saints-- with all due respect-- of announcing certain people as objects of worship, from whom the faithful may solicit favors. A notion I think that has all the earmarks of the Middle Ages, along with Hironymous Bosch and feudal life.
I'll go with the early church. A saint is a believer in Christ, adopted by God through Christ, who will engage in fellowship with other believers. There have been some great men and women over the ages: Peter, Paul, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Ann Judson. Great examples of persons of faith, great role models. I just don't pray to them, because that's one thing. Asking my best friend to pray for me because I'm dealing with some issue or other is not the same thing at all.
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This sounds like doubletalk.
Pray to means ask. Right, but WHO are you asking?
"I pray you went to service today." Were you praying to Rick? Or God? See what I mean? You are praying to someone who has the authority to answer. That would be God, not Mary.
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Rick Otto
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"Rick, why don't you pray about this issue if it is bothering you so much?"
>I wonder if it ocurred to you that I HAVE prayed about it.
I wonder if you realy grasp what it IS that "bothers me" so much.
Doubletalk is exactly right.
>I wonder if it ocurred to you that I HAVE prayed about it.
I wonder if you realy grasp what it IS that "bothers me" so much.
Doubletalk is exactly right.
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