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Montanaman

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why should we use different language than the pope himself?
He SAYS "pray to" not "ask her to pray for".

He says "worship" her.
Look again:
Pope Pius IX Eneffabilis Deus (1854), "Let the most dear children of the Catholic Church hear these words and with more ardent zeal of piety, religion and love, proceed to worship, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary."

The standard response is usualy "We don't worship her4, we "venerate" her!"

Now that they have the pope's own words "worship her" in their faces, the response is "worship doesn't mean worship", and they expect us to accept the idea that only THEY can tell us how to interperet plain English.

Aren't you a little embarrassed for them?
Don't you find that even a little absurd?
Don't you find the very idea of "interpreting" plain english to english speakers even a tiny bit silly?
Doesn't scripture say let your yes mean yes, & your no mean no?
Or do you find it reasonable to let only those loyal to the denom tell you when yes means yes & no means no?

I've never seen denial be so obvious. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship," although Americans would say "Your Honor." This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term "worship" has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use "worship" in the older, broader sense. This can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term "worship" was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word "worship." Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word "worship" by referring to "the worship of latria" or "the worship of dulia." To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.

Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, "We adore God but we honor his saints."

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God.

Though one should know it from one’s own background, it often may be best to simply point out that Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term. Many non-Catholics might be more perplexed than enlightened by hearing the history of the word. Familiar only with their group’s use of the term "worship," they may misperceive a history lesson as rationalization and end up even more adamant in their declarations that the term is applicable only to God. They may even go further. Wanting to attack the veneration of the saints, they may declare that only God should be honored.

Both of these declarations are in direct contradiction to the language and precepts of the Bible. The term "worship" was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakhah. It is appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.

For example, in Genesis 37:7–9 Joseph relates two dreams that God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: "‘ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakhah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, ‘Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshiping [shakhah] me.’"

In Genesis 49:2-27, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall worship [shakhah] you (49:8)." And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: "Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshiped [shakhah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent."

Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration, the kind of worship given to God.
 
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Metanoia02

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why should we use different language than the pope himself?
He SAYS "pray to" not "ask her to pray for".

He says "worship" her.
Look again:
Pope Pius IX Eneffabilis Deus (1854), "Let the most dear children of the Catholic Church hear these words and with more ardent zeal of piety, religion and love, proceed to worship, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary."

The standard response is usualy "We don't worship her4, we "venerate" her!"

Now that they have the pope's own words "worship her" in their faces, the response is "worship doesn't mean worship", and they expect us to accept the idea that only THEY can tell us how to interperet plain English.

Aren't you a little embarrassed for them?
Don't you find that even a little absurd?
Don't you find the very idea of "interpreting" plain english to english speakers even a tiny bit silly?
Doesn't scripture say let your yes mean yes, & your no mean no?
Or do you find it reasonable to let only those loyal to the denom tell you when yes means yes & no means no?

I've never seen denial be so obvious. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.


Funny my translation says venerate, where did you get your translation. I am locating the original Latin so we can dispense with this nonsense.

PS I just check a bunch of sites and all of them say venerate. Did you just make this up or do you have a source?
 
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lionroar0

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http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds2.v.i.iii.html


The Latin text from the Bull 'Ineffabilis Deus,' in which Pope Pius IX. promulgated to the Roman Catholic world the definition of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary, as read before an assembly of Cardinals and Bishops in St. Peter's, Dec. 8, 1864. See Vol. I. §§ 28 and 29, pp. 109 sqq.]

Postquam nunquam intermisimus, in humilitate et jejunio privatas nostras et publicas Ecclesiæ preces Deo Patri per Filium Ejus offerre, ut Spiritus Sancti virtute mentem nostram dirigere et confirmare dignaretur, implorato universæ cœlestis curiæ præsidio, et advocato cum genitibus Paraclito Spiritu, eoque sic adspirante, ad honorem Sanctæ et Individuæ Trinitatis, ad decus et ornamentum Virginis Deiparæ, ad exaltationem Fidei Catholicæ et Christianæ Religionis augmentum, auctoritate Domini Nostri Jesu Christi, beatorum apostolorum Petri et Pauli ac nostra declaramus, pronunciamus et definimus

Doctrinam, quæ tenet, beatissimam Virginem Mariam in primo instanti suæ Conceptionis fuisse singulari omnipotentis Dei gratiæ privilegio, intuitu meritorum Christi Jesu Salvatoris humani generis, ab omni originalis

In English:

Since we have never ceased in humility and fasting to offer up our prayers and those of the Church to God the Father through his Son, that he might deign to direct and confirm our mind by the power of the Holy Ghost, after imploring the protection of the whole celestial court, and after invoking on our knees the Holy Ghost the Paraclete, under his inspiration WE PRONOUNCE, DECLARE, AND DEFINE, unto the glory of the Holy and Indivisible Trinity, the honor and ornament of the holy Virgin the Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic faith and the increase of the Christian religion, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ and the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and in our own authority, that The Doctrine which holds the Blessed Virgin Mary to have been, from the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, in view of the merits of Christ Jesus the Saviour of mankind,

Continued
 
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lionroar0

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culpæ labe præservatam immunem, esse a Deo revelatam, adque idcirco ab omnibus fidelibus firmiter constanterque credendam.Quapropter si qui secus ac a nobis definitum est, quod Deus avertat, præsumpserint corde sentire, ii noverint, ac porro sciant, se proprio judicio condemnatos, nanfragium circa filem passos esse, et ab unitate Ecclesiæ defecisse, ac præterea facto ipso suo semet pœnis a jure statutis subjicere si quod corde sentiunt, verbo aut scripto vel alio quovis externo modo signiftcare ausi fuerint

In English:

preserved free from all stain of original sin, was revealed by God, and is, therefore, to be firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful. Therefore, if some should presume to think in their hearts otherwise than we have defined (which God forbid), they shall know and thoroughly understand that they are by their own judgment condemned, have made shipwreck concerning the faith, and fallen away from the unity of the Church; and, moreover, that they, by this very act, subject themselves to the penalties ordained by law, if, by word or writing, or any other external means, they dare to signify what they think in their hearts.

Nothing about worshipping Mary

Peace
 
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TheListener

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I'm a Christian no matter what you say..

Keep your sarcastic comments to yourself next time please do not attack my person!

What's with the hostility? I said that tongue-in-cheek. Although I agree that if someone doesn't believe in God they shouldn't call themselves Christians. Which part of this do you not agree with?

why should we use different language than the pope himself?
He SAYS "pray to" not "ask her to pray for".

He says "worship" her.
Look again:
Pope Pius IX Eneffabilis Deus (1854), "Let the most dear children of the Catholic Church hear these words and with more ardent zeal of piety, religion and love, proceed to worship, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary."

The standard response is usualy "We don't worship her4, we "venerate" her!"

Now that they have the pope's own words "worship her" in their faces, the response is "worship doesn't mean worship", and they expect us to accept the idea that only THEY can tell us how to interperet plain English.

Aren't you a little embarrassed for them?
Don't you find that even a little absurd?
Don't you find the very idea of "interpreting" plain english to english speakers even a tiny bit silly?
Doesn't scripture say let your yes mean yes, & your no mean no?
Or do you find it reasonable to let only those loyal to the denom tell you when yes means yes & no means no?

I've never seen denial be so obvious. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

Your honest question has been answered above.

God Bless.
 
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Zeena

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culpæ labe præservatam immunem, esse a Deo revelatam, adque idcirco ab omnibus fidelibus firmiter constanterque credendam.Quapropter si qui secus ac a nobis definitum est, quod Deus avertat, præsumpserint corde sentire, ii noverint, ac porro sciant, se proprio judicio condemnatos, nanfragium circa filem passos esse, et ab unitate Ecclesiæ defecisse, ac præterea facto ipso suo semet pœnis a jure statutis subjicere si quod corde sentiunt, verbo aut scripto vel alio quovis externo modo signiftcare ausi fuerint

In English:

preserved free from all stain of original sin, was revealed by God, and is, therefore, to be firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful. Therefore, if some should presume to think in their hearts otherwise than we have defined (which God forbid), they shall know and thoroughly understand that they are by their own judgment condemned, have made shipwreck concerning the faith, and fallen away from the unity of the Church; and, moreover, that they, by this very act, subject themselves to the penalties ordained by law, if, by word or writing, or any other external means, they dare to signify what they think in their hearts.

Nothing about worshipping Mary

Peace
Is this saying that if someone doesn't believe Mary was and is "preserved free from all stain of original sin" that they go to hell...Correct?
 
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Rick Otto

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I appreciate the lack of malice in your tone.
And while I appreciate the scholarly treatment that Montanaman offered, having some familiarity with Latin, I am impressed with the "nth" degree of articulation, but unconvinced. The distinctions are so fine they obfuscate the obvious. "Beyond the shadow of a doubt" is the standard for conviction in criminal cases, but in civil court, only a preponderance of evidence is necessary for a decision. I would consider God in charge of Criminal Court, while we as individuals of conscience are responsible for civil judgements.

To decide this issue on an obscure technicality of Latin is everyone's perogative of course, but it does nothing to change the color of common practice among adherants.
 
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Assisi

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Zeena, it means that this is a matter of faith that all Catholics must hold in order to be considered Catholic.

Rick, the English language is alive and changing. Latin is a dead language. That's why Church documents are written in Latin. In Latin the words for worship are 'latria' (worship due to God) 'dulia' (honour due to saints) and 'hyperdulia' (honour due to Mary). A while back all three of these words could be translated into the English word 'worship'. So some translations do say worship. But the thing is that the Pope wasn't speaking English at the time, he was speaking Latin.
Are you saying that the Church is currently lying to us about what it teaches? That it is not teaching the faithful what it holds to be true? Why would the Church tell us not to worship (latria) Mary, if it held that we had to in order to be Catholic?
 
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