Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us.

[JulieB67]

Funny how many submit to the authority of Christ's Church when it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity, the Canon of Scripture, The 2 Natures of Christ without explicit scriptural reference.

I've always stated many churches have some of the truth. But the key thing as I said is we cannot contradict scripture with our beliefs. And belief in the trinity, etc does not contradict scripture. But the elevating Mary above others that also do the will of God does. That's a complete contradiction and is a belief that should be rejected. She is blessed to have been given birth to Christ but should not be held above any that does the will of God. She is the same as are others.

Do you believe Christ when he states this?

Mark 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is My brother, and My sister, and mother.

 

[concretecamper]

I've always stated many churches have some of the truth.

What truth? According to what YOU say is truth?

But the key thing as I said is we cannot contradict scripture with our beliefs

In other words, contradict what YOU say scripture says.

Do you believe Christ when he states this?

Mark 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is My brother, and My sister, and mother

Why would I?


All that you posts display is subjective truth. If you could display that you are some sort of authority, it would help out quote a bit.

 

[concretecamper]

There is much in the NT word of God demonstrating the Trinity and Christ's two natures.

Tell that to Arius and Nestorius and all the other who didn't find scripture so clear as you do. I suggest reading the documents of Ephesus and Chalcedon to get a good handle on what His 2 Natures imply.

Your post displays a good college try at 20-20 hindsight.

 

[PeterDona]

And no church is infallible. That goes for all denominations. What is infallible is the Word of God. It's not the church and then the word of God.

However,
did not Jesus himself give to the Church the responsibility to make authoritative interpretation?
I am referring to his words in Matthew 16:19 regarding binding and loosing, which is a jewish way to say, making authoritative decision on the faith.

BINDING AND LOOSING - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

www.jewishencyclopedia.com

So in matters where Scripture might be unclear, the Church has a responsibility to decide
hm hm, interesting, 2 different concepts on what the binding and loosing means, on catholic answers
(1) the right to unite or exclude people for the fellowship of the Church What Do the Words "Bind and Loose" Mean in Matthew 16:19?
(2) the right to make decisions on the teaching What Does the Phrase "Binding and Loosing" in Matthew's Gospel Refer To?

 

[JulieB67]

In other words, contradict what YOU say scripture says.
Why would I?

I'm talking this scripture I posted. Give me your meaning to that scripture. Can you even do that, one scripture?

No one needs to interpret this verse, it leaves the meaning very clear.


Mark 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is My brother, and My sister, and mother."

What do you think this verse means?

However,
did not Jesus himself give to the Church the responsibility to make authoritative interpretation?
I am referring to his words in Matthew 16:19 regarding binding and loosing, which is a jewish way to say, making authoritative decision on the faith.

I believe the disciples and apostles started the one true church. And Christ states by one's fruit we will know them. Your beliefs about Mary clearly contradict the scriptures. Oral traditions passed down through the years by a church you claim as the one true should still not contradict the written word. Common sense alone tells us if even one verse has been contradicted, the church you follow is not the one true one.

Your teachings about Mary clearly contradict this verse which I've posted many times already.

So in matters where Scripture might be unclear

How is this scripture unclear?

Mark 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is My brother, and My sister, and mother."

And if you have even this one verse wrong, the rest can certainly be nothing more than conjecture, which you clearly claim is on our part. Even though we have quite enough scripture that points otherwise. You have no scripture and put your trust in your church to lead you the right way. Even if there is no scripture to back it up.

We are told to search the scriptures and to study ourselves to show ourselves approved. That's why I left my church years ago when I was being fed false doctrines that went against the written word.

 

[PeterDona]

In my studies on this concept of the teaching authority and responsibility of the Church, I learned some of the issues with the teaching authority
- a teaching should be ideally be traceable through the history of the church, found e.g. with at least some church fathers
- in order to dispute a teaching, some solid argumentation must be put on the table

But I think, that this discussion that we are having, is reasonable enough. It is always acceptable to discuss and to inform oneself about what the church teaches. We are in the area of faith. Of course it is a walk to learn the faith, and to find out if you can agree / support some distinct part of the faith. To me that is absolutely reasonable and acceptable.

 

[Clare73]

Tell that to Arius and Nestorius and all the other who didn't find scripture so clear as you do. I suggest reading the documents of Ephesus and Chalcedon to get a good handle on what His 2 Natures imply.

Your post displays a good college try at 20-20 hindsight.

Not too sure what Arius and Nestorius have to do with the word of God regarding Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

You sound as if those guys were apart from Christianity, apart from the body of Christ, the church, wherein are all the born again since the cross.

Quick summary:
1) three separate agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in the work of salvation and atonement:
----a) at its beginning (Lk 1:35) in the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Mt 3:16-17), in the atonement (Heb 9:14),
----b) in its completion (Ac 2:38-39, Ro 8:26, 1 Co 12:4-13, Eph 1:3-14, Eph 2:13-22, 2 Th 2:13, 1 Pe 1:2);
----c) the only way to enter the kingdom of the Father (Jn 3:1-15);

2) Father, Son and Holy Spirit bracketed together as the triune name of God (Mt 28:19, 1 Co 12:4-6, 2 Co13:14, Rev 1:4-5);

3) the following set of relationships:
----a) Son is subject to the Father, being sent by the Father in the Father's name (Jn 5:23, 36, 43),
----b) Spirit is subject to the Father, being sent by the Father in the Son's name (Jn 14:26),
----c) Spirit is subject to the Son as well as the Father, being sent by the Son as well as the Father (Jn 15:26, 16:7, 14:26).

 

[concretecamper]

Not too sure what Arius and Nestorius have to do with the word of God regarding Father, Son and Holy Spirit

Those who don't know the mistakes made in History are bound to repeat them. That seems so true here.

Quick summary:
1) three separate agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in the work of salvation and atonement:
----a) at its beginning (Lk 1:35) in the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Mt 3:16-17), in the atonement (Heb 9:14),
----b) in its completion (Ac 2:38-39, Ro 8:26, 1 Co 12:4-13, Eph 1:3-14, Eph 2:13-22, 2 Th 2:13, 1 Pe 1:2);
----c) the only way to enter the kingdom of the Father (Jn 3:1-15);

2) Father, Son and Holy Spirit bracketed together as the triune name of God (Mt 28:19, 1 Co 12:4-6, 2 Co13:14, Rev 1:4-5);

3) the following set of relationships:
----a) Son is subject to the Father, being sent by the Father in the Father's name (Jn 5:23, 36, 43),
----b) Spirit is subject to the Father, being sent by the Father in the Son's name (Jn 14:26),
----c) Spirit is subject to the Son as well as the Father, being sent by the Son as well as the Father (Jn 15:26, 16:7, 14:26).

You gotta love when those who have no real answer spam with Bible verses that don't really address the issue.


The doctrine of the Trinity is so much more than there being a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. More study is suggested. Maybe start with the Athanasius Creed.

 

[Clare73]

Those who don't know the mistakes made in History are bound to repeat them. That seems so true here.

You gotta love when those who have no real answer

Strawman. . .

What was the question?

spam with Bible verses that don't really address the issue.

That explains why you think the word of God does not demonstrate Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The doctrine of the Trinity is so much more than there being a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. More study is suggested.

Strawman. . .

 

[JulieB67]

You gotta love when those who have no real answer spam

Says the person that won't answer what this verse means to them.

Mark 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is My brother, and My sister, and mother."

 

[concretecamper]

Says the person that won't answer what this verse means to them.

Mark 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is My brother, and My sister, and mother."

outside of it meaning what He is saying, I'm not sure what you want the rest of us to read into this?

 

[JulieB67]

outside of it meaning what He is saying, I'm not sure what you want the rest of us to read into this?

I'm not wanting you to read anything into it other than what it states. That's just it. You obviously believe that others that do the will of God are not the same as his mother although Christ states they are.

So what do you believe Christ means when he states everyone that does the will of God is the "same" as his mother. What does he mean by the "same"? It's an honest question.

 

[concretecamper]

You obviously believe that others that do the will of God are not the same as his mother although Christ states they are

Of course those who do His will are not the "same" as His mother. To think that is adding to scripture.

So what do you believe Christ means when he states everyone that does the will of God is the "same" as his mother. What does he mean by the "same"? It's an honest question

He doesn't say that. All He is saying is that anyone that does the will of His father is family. You are inserting the word same.

Btw, if you read the 3 accounts of this story, and read a bit beforehand, you'll get some good background info which may clear things up for you.

 

[JulieB67]

Btw, if you read the 3 accounts of this story, and read a bit beforehand, you'll get some good background info which may clear things up for you.

You are inserting the word same.

Two of the accounts are translated "same" and one states "are" But it is not me that inserts it, it's the KJV. But I think the meaning is pretty clear regardless.

And have read all of them. I take the entire bible as a whole so not to lose context. That's why I left my own church years ago when it was very apparent they were only feeding milk and not the meat of God's word. One could spend a lifetime sitting on a pew and only come away having been fed milk. One or two verses surrounded by a personal sermon that has nothing to do with God's word. Throw a few false doctrines in there and send you on your way. But I disgress..

All 3 accounts still state the same thing. Anyone that does the will of God according the Christ are considered his mother, brethren, etc. I'll even insert your word -family. These verses clearly show that he didn't put his own family over anyone that does the will of God. And if he didn't, we should follow that example.

 

[concretecamper]

All 3 accounts still state the same thing. Anyone that does the will of God according the Christ are considered his mother, brethren, etc. I'll even insert your word -family. These verses clearly show that he didn't put his own family over anyone that does the will of God. And if he didn't, we should follow that example.

It is encouraging that you dropped the word "same". All who do the will of the Father are NOT THE SAME as His Mother as you previously surmised.

 

[JulieB67]

It is encouraging that you dropped the word "same". All who do the will of the Father are NOT THE SAME as His Mother as you previously surmised.

I have not dropped it.

Mark 3:32 "And the multitude sat about Him, and they said unto Him, "Behold, Thy mother and Thy brethren without seek for Thee."
Mark 3:33 "And He answered them, saying, "Who is My mother, or My brethren?"

Mark 3:34 "And He looked round about on them which sat about Him, and said, "Behold My mother and My brethren!" "

Mark 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is My brother, and My sister, and mother."

The words "the same is My brother, My sister and mother." means exactly that. He or she, they, these, such as, etc if we want to be specific from the Greek word. But whoever does the will of God are his brother, sister and mother. Meaning there is no difference when it comes to Christ. We are all part of the many membered body. And if Christ isn't raising his mother over anyone else that does the will of God, again we should follow that example.

 

[BobRyan]

Sure. . .God could use someone else in their place. . .not too sure what he would substitute for the mother of the Christ though.

Would there be a gospel with no Christ? Would there be a Christ with no mother?

or "with no Shem" or "with no Jacob" ? and yes - God could have used someone else in Mary's place. But He chose Mary.

Mary provided no special skill, gift, knowledge that was unique to Mary - in giving birth to the incarnate Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not wanting you to read anything into it other than what it states. That's just it. You obviously believe that others that do the will of God are not the same as his mother although Christ states they are.

So what do you believe Christ means when he states everyone that does the will of God is the "same" as his mother. What does he mean by the "same"? It's an honest question.

"Is My Brother" - is "my Sister"

46 While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. 47 [Someone said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak to You.”] 48 But Jesus replied to the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother, and who are My brothers?” 49 And extending His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold: My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother, and sister, and mother.”

 

[BobRyan]

Addition to OP

Christ's response to being confronted with "blessed be Mary" was... "on the contrary"

Luke 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that carried You, and the breasts at which You nursed!” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it.”​

 

[concretecamper]

I have not dropped it.

Mark 3:32 "And the multitude sat about Him, and they said unto Him, "Behold, Thy mother and Thy brethren without seek for Thee."
Mark 3:33 "And He answered them, saying, "Who is My mother, or My brethren?"

Mark 3:34 "And He looked round about on them which sat about Him, and said, "Behold My mother and My brethren!" "

Mark 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is My brother, and My sister, and mother."

The words "the same is My brother, My sister and mother." means exactly that. He or she, they, these, such as, etc if we want to be specific from the Greek word. But whoever does the will of God are his brother, sister and mother. Meaning there is no difference when it comes to Christ. We are all part of the many membered body. And if Christ isn't raising his mother over anyone else that does the will of God, again we should follow that example.

The "same is" in verse 35 refers to Whosoever. It does not mean they are the same as His Mother. No matter how much you twist the words, it just doesn't add up to what you are trying to demonstrate.