If you believe the Blessed Virgin Mary sinned...

[JoeT]

Mary is in heaven. It is her earthly body that hasn't been raised yet. When we die, the exact same thing will happen with us. We don't have to believe Mary's earthly body has been raised to hope ours will be. Jesus promised they would be and He is our example and proof that our bodies will be raised and made anew as His was. One can believe this and not doubt that Christ is both man and God.

You say that with such forceful ignorance. I'm sure you've located her bones, just like the ones of St. Peter that aren't suppose to be in Rome. If Jesus Christ didn't raise His mother into heaven, what hope do you have that He will raise you? Seems a bit counter intuitive to me.

Protestants do not believe that we only have to believe in His name to be saved. We have to believe in Him. Who He is which includes His grace. His name is a means of identification but it is who He is that we must believe in.

The demons knew Jesus Christ.

Give us one example of anyone in Scripture praying to anyone other than God (not counting those who prayed to false gods). Prayer by definition is talking to God. We cannot pray to a fellow human or a "saint." Only God is a rightful object of prayer. Scripture nowhere teaches otherwise. Asking another person here on earth to pray for me is far different than asking someone in heaven to pray for me. God has not permitted us or given us a means to contact those in heaven.

"And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" [Apocalypse 5:8]. Seems a lot prayed to the saints.

JoeT

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

You say that with such forceful ignorance. I'm sure you've located her bones, just like the ones of St. Peter that aren't suppose to be in Rome. If Jesus Christ didn't raise His mother into heaven, what hope do you have that He will raise you? Seems a bit counter intuitive to me.

The demons knew Jesus Christ.

"And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" [Apocalypse 5:8]. Seems a lot prayed to the saints.

JoeT

John 11:25-26​

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 14:1–3​

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.”

1 Corinthians 15:26—27, 54–57​

The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.

When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:49–52​

Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Philippians 3:20–21​

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

2 Timothy 1:8–10​

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Isaiah 25:8​

He will swallow up death forever;
and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces,
and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth,
for the LORD has spoken.

There are others but these are the very words of God. If I cannot trust God to keep His word then I have no faith. His word is enough for me and should be for you. I don't need him to prove it to me. He raised Jesus from the dead. Is that not proof enough?

When I say we must believe in who Christ is, believing implies taking action on that knowledge. If you truly believe Jesus is God then you would want to follow and obey Him. Otherwise, you don't really believe in who He is.

 

[JoeT]

John 11:25-26​

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 14:1–3​

“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.”

1 Corinthians 15:26—27, 54–57​

The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.

When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:


The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:49–52​

Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Philippians 3:20–21​

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

2 Timothy 1:8–10​

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Isaiah 25:8​

There are others but these are the very words of God. If I cannot trust God to keep His word then I have no faith. His word is enough for me and should be for you. I don't need him to prove it to me. He raised Jesus from the dead. Is that not proof enough?

When I say we must believe in who Christ is, believing implies taking action on that knowledge. If you truly believe Jesus is God then you would want to follow and obey Him. Otherwise, you don't really believe in who He is.

I say a lot of things such as, "I believe". The action is not in the knowledge, it is in the doing.

But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep [John 10:26].

JoeT

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

I say a lot of things such as, "I believe". The action is not in the knowledge, it is in the doing.

But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep [John 10:26].

JoeT

According to the Bible, faith is a gift from God. He gives us the faith to believe in Him. When we exercise that faith (truly believing) we are saved. Then God begins a process of sanctification through which we start to change and our actions, our doing, become the evidence of our saving faith. That is what the Book of Jude talks about. If you say you have saving faith, but your life shows no evidence, then you need to examine your faith. I don't believe salvation is the result of "saying the magic words."

In John 10:26, Jesus ascribes their lack of faith to the fact that they were "not of my sheep." They were not given saving faith. They may have mouthed some words but they did not truly believe. If I believe jumping off the Empire State building will kill me, and I say so, and say I have no interest in dying, but then jump off the Empire State building it is clear I didn't not truly believe it would kill me or else my actions would have reflected that. If I say Jesus is my Lord and Savior but insist on ignoring His will and only ever doing what I want, then I clearly did not truly believe He was my Lord. Our actions are evidence of our faith but not the basis of our salvation.

 

[JoeT]

According to the Bible, faith is a gift from God. He gives us the faith to believe in Him. When we exercise that faith (truly believing) we are saved. Then God begins a process of sanctification through which we start to change and our actions, our doing, become the evidence of our saving faith. That is what the Book of Jude talks about. If you say you have saving faith, but your life shows no evidence, then you need to examine your faith. I don't believe salvation is the result of "saying the magic words."

In John 10:26, Jesus ascribes their lack of faith to the fact that they were "not of my sheep." They were not given saving faith. They may have mouthed some words but they did not truly believe. If I believe jumping off the Empire State building will kill me, and I say so, and say I have no interest in dying, but then jump off the Empire State building it is clear I didn't not truly believe it would kill me or else my actions would have reflected that. If I say Jesus is my Lord and Savior but insist on ignoring His will and only ever doing what I want, then I clearly did not truly believe He was my Lord. Our actions are evidence of our faith but not the basis of our salvation.

But, believing Him means you are of the one sheep.

JoeT

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

But, believing Him means you are of the one sheep.

JoeT

All who believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior are His sheep. No matter where they live or what church they go to. Just like His church is not confined to one group or ecclesiastical structure.

 

[JoeT]

All who believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior are His sheep. No matter where they live or what church they go to. Just like His church is not confined to one group or ecclesiastical structure.

Based on your response, Christ isn't Lord of one Kingdom but He is Lord over multiple Kingdoms. That doesn't seem to be reflected in Scripture.

JoeT

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Based on your response, Christ isn't Lord of one Kingdom but He is Lord over multiple Kingdoms. That doesn't seem to be reflected in Scripture.

JoeT

Why would you assume Christ's kingdom can only contain one ecclesiastical structure? Is He not king over all? Does His kingdom not encompass the entire earth?

When Catholics see the word "church" they think of an institution with a structure. The Bible describes all who follow Christ as part of "the church" and part of "His kingdom." Jesus did not set up an earthly institution. He set up a family of believers spanning ages, nations, churches, etc. His flock contains all who hear His voice no matter what their church affiliation. All are part of His kingdom. Do not constrain what God has not.

 

[JoeT]

Why would you assume Christ's kingdom can only contain one ecclesiastical structure? Is He not king over all? Does His kingdom not encompass the entire earth?

When Catholics see the word "church" they think of an institution with a structure. The Bible describes all who follow Christ as part of "the church" and part of "His kingdom."

I don't assume the Kingdom here on earth, His Kingdom did come at His ascension. Reading Sacred Scripture, you'll find His Kingdom. Don't dismiss it as another symbol, "For they have not rejected thee, but me, that I should not reign over them" [1 Kings 8:7]

The Apostles came to Christ asking if He will establish his Kingdom on the spot. He said, “ It is not for you to know the times or moments, which the Father hath put in his own power But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth [Acts 1:6-8] And when did the Holy Spirit come? At Pentecost, where they were filled with the Holy Spirit, "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit [Acts 2:4]

One God, One Church.

Jesus did not set up an earthly institution.

Jesus did indeed "set up His earthly Kingdom or if you please His earthly Church. He said, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" [Matthew 16:18]. Not only did Christ build His Church, He built it on Peter whom you renounce as head of the Church. Jesus commissions empowering the one true church [Matthew 28:16-20].

He set up a family of believers spanning ages, nations, churches, etc. His flock contains all who hear His voice no matter what their church affiliation. All are part of His kingdom. Do not constrain what God has not.

There is but one family of believers, spanning all ages, and nations, those who are members of the Body of Christ, the Catholic Church. Do you reject Him by rejecting the Church?

Non-Catholics believe they have absolute sovereignty and independence of God and His authority; believing one religion is as good as another, i.e. relativism. Looking inward for authority, each rationalist holds the necessary individual authority to establish basic cosmic truths. This seems to transform into complete independence from any social morality not otherwise originating from their own interior. This degradation continues with the implied right to judge moral and civil law. The argument extended is to say that God’s laws are relative; “what’s true for you, may not be true for me”. Polls becomes the important indicator for right and wrong; rather than God’s immutable truth. And finally, in the extreme the relativism requires absolute freedom of thought in matters of morality and religion. The paradigm resulting from this is complete independence from God's will unless it happens to coincide with the current paradigm.

Thus, believing in Him means you are of the one sheep, not multiple sheep in thousands of flocks with an equal number of truths.

JoeT