Mary did NOT stay a virgin.

[HisBelovedMelody]

And especially; Matthew 1:25, "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And they named him Jesus."

key word being until. THAT means...AFTER Jesus was born, they had relations!! SO Simple to this little hicks head.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Excuse me, the first one came out of the Psalms.

SO is Psalms NOT Scripture?? READ what it says, <edit>

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

I do not believe you are offensive.

I do take offense at BigChris with this holier than thou way of talking to us.

Fearing for our souls, indeed. Who made him an Infallible teacher.
Utter nonsense.

Now, it could be very well that I am more than three times older than him, and have taught scripture longer than he has been on this earth. So have many others here that he pulls this stuff with.

I personally believe this young man need to learn a little humility.

do you teach the Word of God...OR what the Catholic church teaches??? There is a HUGE difference.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Matt 13:

55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not &#65279;a&#65279;His mother called Mary, and His &#65279;a&#65279;brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
56 “And &#65279;a&#65279;His sisters, are they not all with us? ​

Matt 12:46

46 &#65279;a&#65279;While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His &#65279;b&#65279;mother and &#65279;c&#65279;brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.

47 Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”​

Acts 1: 14 These all with one mind &#65279;a&#65279;were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with &#65279;b&#65279;the women, and Mary the &#65279;c&#65279;mother of Jesus, and with His &#65279;c&#65279;brothers.


But of course I realize this is just the scriptures and means nothing when compared to the "Ancient Traition of the Church"

scripture can't say that, cause the pope didn't say it was ok..or TRADITION!! FOr the Love of PETE! The Bible is true..and God is TRUE..and EVERY MAN a liar.

 

[+RubiesFire+]

I fear for your souls/quote]

Do you practice what you preach of fearing for souls?

Do you fear for the souls of the lost-
1. Atheist
2. Hindu
3. Muslim
4. And all the other Non Believer's.

What about them?? Do YOU help them?? Or do you waste your time speaking empty words to Christians who do not need your guidance?!

Mathew 7:4-How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

It is not your place to worry of Christians souls, and I mean every denomination, which includes Catholic.

As Christians we should focus our time and energy on helping those who are lost, not those who know the truth!

Worry about your own soul, not other Christians, which is not our place at all!

 

[Charles YTK]

STOP THE PRESS!

Not only did Mary have extra children... BUT Jesus had 2 extra dad's apart from Joseph and God:

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Clearly that must be understood literally using current English practices. Oh hang on a sec.... Maybe, just maybe it's possible that the authors of scripture didn't mean it that way at all. There's an ever so slim chance that maybe these verses are best understood by considering them in their cultural and historical context.

To be fair - While the bible never explicitely says Mary stayed a virgin... IT also never explicitely says she had other children. Like it or not Chris - the words used could be interpreted any number of ways. There's no cut and dry answer here except for those who trust their tradition. For the rest of us it's only speculation.

I appreciate your balanced post.

The word "Brother" is in the Greek ( Adelphos) means "from the womb", and is used as a blood relation almost exclusively in the New Testament. Context is pretty important in any understanding. When Mary and the brothers of Jesus come to take him home from where he was preaching in a house and drawing a large crowd, Jesus himself makes a comparison between brothers by blood(from the womb) and brothers from association and faith. You see his mother and brothers had come to take him home because they really didnt believe he was the Messiah and thought that maybe he was a little crazy, and so they want him to quit embarassing the family and to go home and work in wood as a carpenter. But Yeshua is offended by their lack of faith and says You who are here gathered together in faith are my real brothers and sisters and mother.

The fact that he is contrasting the two groups illustrates that the one was blood relations and the other was brothers by association and common faith.

Does this mean that Mary was thier birth mother? Well we don't have a birth certificate for any of them, but the fact that they remain with her and are support to her would indicate familial relationship.

Again thanks for your fair post. Hope that you will receive mine in the same tone,

Charles

 

[Charles YTK]

scripture can't say that, cause the pope didn't say it was ok..or TRADITION!! FOr the Love of PETE! The Bible is true..and God is TRUE..and EVERY MAN a liar.

I think you missed my Tongue in Cheek, comment on the end. I have little regard for "Church tradition". I am with you, the scriptures are all that we have that we can call truth. The Pope has a mighty fine hat. Beyond that I have no appreciation for him or his postion.

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

Matt 13:

55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not &#65279;a&#65279;His mother called Mary, and His &#65279;a&#65279;brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
56 “And &#65279;a&#65279;His sisters, are they not all with us? ​

So........ based on the above Scripture, Jesus is the son of Joseph, eh Chuck?

Rdr Moses

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

I think you missed my Tongue in Cheek, comment on the end. I have little regard for "Church tradition". I am with you, the scriptures are all that we have that we can call truth. The Pope has a mighty fine hat. Beyond that I have no appreciation for him or his postion.

No, I am on the same page as you brother. I have NO respect for the catholic denomination either.

 

[Charles YTK]

So........ based on the above Scripture, Jesus is the son of Joseph, eh Chuck?

Rdr Moses

Then James would have probably moved on after Josephs death. And since they are siblings that are younger than Jesus, then Joseph had children outside of marriage and brought them into the household of Mary, as they were born after her marriage to Joseph. Let's see, it mentions three brothers and a couple sisters who are not given names in the text we can see at least 6 years of time that these siblings appear after Jesus. So how would Joseph have children born to him by somene else after his marriage to Mary?

The thing that I find difficult is that if it were anyone else you would read it like we do, but since it involves Mary, you need to preserve her perpetual virginity because that is a pillar of your church doctrine. This perpetual virginity would be totally contrary to the Hebraic culture of the time in which children were viewed as the greatest blessing from God and having children an honor and obligation in Jewish culture.

<edited SJ>

 

[Charles YTK]

No, I am on the same page as you brother. I have NO respect for the catholic denomination either.

I was reading a short article in "Time" magazine the other day and it was saying that the new Pope was very determined to eliminate any spontaneous thought or questions about the Catholic doctrine and was basically moving to re-instate the doctrine that if you question Papal authority or Catholic tradition you would be considered Antethema. This was a doctrine that had been set aside I think by JP2.

<edited SJ>

 

[Peaceful Dove]

STOP THE PRESS!

Not only did Mary have extra children... BUT Jesus had 2 extra dad's apart from Joseph and God:

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Clearly that must be understood literally using current English practices. Oh hang on a sec.... Maybe, just maybe it's possible that the authors of scripture didn't mean it that way at all. There's an ever so slim chance that maybe these verses are best understood by considering them in their cultural and historical context.

To be fair - While the bible never explicitely says Mary stayed a virgin... IT also never explicitely says she had other children. Like it or not Chris - the words used could be interpreted any number of ways. There's no cut and dry answer here except for those who trust their tradition. For the rest of us it's only speculation.

You are a good and honest man Splayd and pretty smart fella too.

Keep it up, you give my heart a face lift. I needed that.

 

[QuantaCura]

I know I'm jumping in here late, but I know one of the main objections to Mary's virginity revolve around the the word "until."

Here are some other examples of when brethren doesn't mean siblings and until doesn't mean a change happened afterwards:

1 Timothy 6:14 says, "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." (What? After that it's going to be one big orgy? I don't think so!)

Genesis 8:7: "the raven "did not return until the waters were dried up" (the raven never returned even after the waters were dried up);

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Deuteronomy 34:6: "and no one knows his [Moses'] grave until this day." (Moses' grave was never found) [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Luke 1:80: "[St. John the Baptist] was in the deserts until the day of his manifestation to Israel." (St. John stayed in the desert afterwards, too) [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]1 Corinthians 15:25: "For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet" (Christ will reign forever and ever!) [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]1 Timothy 4:13: "until I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine" (Trust me, St. Paul gave a lot of attention to doctrine after he came!) [/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]Revelation 2:25-26: "But hold fast what you have until I come. And he who overcomes and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power" (we should hold fast and obey even after Jesus returns) [/FONT]

 

[Peaceful Dove]

Well, I can tell you a theory:

Joseph had some sons before to marry Mary: two of them are well know: James 'the brother' of the Lord and a Jude.

After the death/ascension of Jesus these two groups came in fight:
- the group of Jesus relatives, headed by James 'the brother of the Lord', that was more tied to the Jewish tradition and had the supremacy in Jerusalem.
- the other group, the 11 apostels headed by Peter and Paul, that was loosing power in Jerusalem and had to spread the gospel out from such a town.

We had same traces of that in the attacks of the Gospels to the 'brothers of Jesus' (Lk 8:21), or by the fact that Peter in Act 12 do not go personally to James before to escape in Antioch or by even the fear of Paul to go to Jerusalem

On the other hand, we know that at the death of James 'the brother of the Lord', the (Jew)-Christians of Jerusalem elected bishop a very relative of Jesus, a son of a brother of Joseph.

Of course Luke in the Acts try to shown the eatly christians as united, so whichver was the truth, we will never know it.

I would like to respectfully point out that most scholars name Alpheus as the father of James and Jude, not Joseph.

 

[thereselittleflower]

So what, how are you going to throw away the three verse that I gave you that say Jesus had brothers? If he had brothers, then he had brothers. Mary is Jesus ONLY mother, therefor, if he had brothers, then where do you think they came from? Out of thine air?

How does rejecting your personal interpretation of 3 scriptures equate to throwing away these 3 scriptures?



Are you an infallible interpreter of the scriptures?





Peace

 

[Peaceful Dove]

SO is Psalms NOT Scripture?? READ what it says, NOT what the RCC has brainwashed you to believe. IF it bothers you so...don't post here. I am SICK of being told LOTS of stuff from RCC's.

do you teach the Word of God...OR what the Catholic church teaches??? There is a HUGE difference.

Do you have to work hard at being this offensive?
I notice you are Pentecostal. I see that as Spirit Filled and operating in the Fruits of the Spirit. In the Catholic Charismatic experience, those fruits are suppose to be obvious.
You see, I can pass out the same stuff you can and it is sometimes good to let you know how you offend and hurt other people with words.
It is not what goes into a persons mouth that corrupts but what comes out.

Now I will address your statements.
The Psalms are scripture, but they were being used to say Mary had other kids. You seemed to have missed that by a mile. Maybe that is due to some sort of brainwashing, hmmmm? That Psalm is not about Mary or Jesus.
Since I cut my teeth on scripture as a small child at the knees of my Protestant Grandparents and grew up deeply involved with the Bible as a PROTESTANT, I assure you I know what the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church teaches and how they teach it.
You very obviously do not. Ohhh yes, you think you know and in fact you think you know more than the Catholics here know about what they are taugth.
Your brainwash comments are silly and childish because they have no meaning whatsoever here.
You wouldn't recognize a huge difference if you saw it.
I recommend you get a little learning, too.
You might want to start with respect and manners.
How about beginning with I Corrinthians Chapter 13.

I apologize to everyone here along with the MODs for my personal remarks but they were in response to equally personal ones.

 

[thereselittleflower]

And especially; Matthew 1:25, "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And they named him Jesus."

Just like Michal, King David's wife, had no children UNTIL the day she died . . . .

And Michal, Saul's daughter, had no child till the day of her death.

Michal, Saul's daughter, never had any children. .

​

The use of "until" does not mean that something changed after the point "until" points to has happened.


Did Michal have children AFTER she died?



Peace


L

 

[Charles YTK]

And other great myths about Mary:

The Assumption:

According to Catholic doctrine and the traditions of the Catholic Church, the Blessed Virgin Mary (Mary, the mother of Jesus) "having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory." This means that Mary was transported into Heaven with her body and soul united. The feast day recognizing Mary's passage into Heaven is celebrated as The Feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary by Roman Catholics. This doctrine was dogmatically and infallibly defined by Pope Pius XII on 1 November 1950 in his Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus.St. Thomas receiving the Virgin Mary's girdle


Despite its recent definition as dogma, the story of the assumption dates back to the early centuries of the church, being mentioned in the apocryphal text De Obitu S. Dominae, attributed to St. John, but which was probably written no earlier than the fourth century. The story also appears in De Transitu Virginis, which was said to have been written by St. Melito of Sardis. A letter ascribed to Dionysus the Areopagite also mentions the event. Other saints also describe it, notably St. Gregory of Tours, St. John Damascene, and St. Modestus of Jerusalem.



The Infallibility of the Pope.

 

[Cribstyl]

Lots of people are going off topic to defend and take offense. I'd rather present text and let God's word speak to the heart of those who would accept truth as it is written.


If we ask someone from Jesus hometown about his family, what would they say?


53And when Jesus had finished these parables, he went away from there,
54and coming to his hometown he taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man get this wisdom and these mighty works?
55Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
56And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”
57And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household.”
58And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.

Hometown assessment
Seems to me that text conveys a view from people who were brought up knowing Jesus. Their reason for not believing in Him is because they knew His Father, mother, brothers and sisters.



After death Luke wrote about the family:

Act 1:12Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.
13And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James.
14All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.*


Why does the text tell us details about Judas son of James and James son of Alphaeus and does not elaborate on who sons the brothers of Jesus are?

The fact that they were mention with Mary and not along with the 12 does seperate family member from disciples.

In peace
CRIB

 

[thereselittleflower]

key word being until. THAT means...AFTER Jesus was born, they had relations!! SO Simple to this little hicks head.

Just like that word meant that Michal had children AFTER she died?




Peace