LOTR is the spawn of satan

JohnR012

Active Member
Jun 21, 2005
160
6
62
✟15,320.00
Faith
Lutheran
http://www.decentfilms.com/commentary/magic.html

I think the article is a good way to see how the pro LOTR anti HP argument "splits the hairs." I think both stories are just fun fiction. Neither of the stories are talking about the real world. They both are imaginary. I think that Harry Potter was born a Wizard as with all the wizards. The muggles are of a separate world and the rules for exposing magic to the muggles are strict. Sorry, splitting more hairs.
 
Upvote 0

Abbadon

Self Bias Resistor - goin' commando in a cassock!
Jan 26, 2005
6,022
335
37
Bible belt, unfortunatly
✟22,912.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I saw the title and thought "Oh, Lord, I'm off for a week and I miss a good arguement like this." Oh, wait, there isn't really any arguements.

I don't ever recall seeing a thread that specifically said LOTR was satanic. I've seen threads that said that fantasy in general was anti-Christian, but not specifically LOTR.

Well, I guess I'll just work with the OP.

WizardBoy01 said:
LOTR says that this ring will destroy the world so thats liek tha anti-christ, and than wizards who openly practice witch craft go to destroy it. there are demons and creatures from hell and the heros are all possesed buy the ring(anti-christ) so if you don't like harry potter because of witchcraft this is worse guys.

Then destroying the ring is a GOOD thing. The Wizards are hinted at as not quite human, but more comparable to angels. The Wizards do not practice witchcraft. Tolkien actually did mention witches, in a separate context from wizards. I'm guessing WizardBoy01's icon may not be genuine.

Also the demons are never specifically mentioned as being "from Hell" and even then, they are the BAD GUYS. The heroes being possessed by the ring is potrayed as a BAD thing.

I don't think WizardBoy01 is really a full fledged pagan, guys, I think it's someone who's just trying to cause trouble.

The term some of my friends would use is "fluff bunny".

WizardBoy01, do you have parents that claim to be Christian that saw your interest in HP and told you it was satanic, or something? 'Cause Christianity is not about bashing fantasy stories.

I've checked his posts, and I don't see anything indicating that he is a genuine pagan. I'm guessing he just wants to shock the mundies.

-----

Sorry folks, I haven't had much to do the past couple of weeks.
 
Upvote 0

Fletcher

Member
Jan 3, 2004
95
4
✟235.00
Faith
Catholic
Politics
US-Republican
A few points on the article as I'm reading it;

The article seems to be objecting to some of the truly evil creatures in the "Harry Potter" universe: the dementors are evil, as is the voice of the basilisk leaving murderous threats. Mandrakes are mythological creatures-- I certainly doubt Rowling meant anything sinister there. I'm not sure what point they're trying to make with the slug-spell gone awry. There is a girl ghost who haunts the girl's toilet, but she's mainly used for comic relief. Also keep in mind that if you're going to object to all ghosts in literature, you're going to have to throw out "A Christmas Carol" and "Lord of the Rings," which both contain ghosts (the ghosts of Christmas spirit and The Paths of the Dead).

Now to their "seven hedge" objections:

1) "Tolkien and Lewis confine the pursuit of magic as a safe and lawful occupation to wholly imaginary realms, with place-names like Middle-earth and Narnia — worlds that cannot be located either in time or in space with reference to our own world, and which stand outside Judeo-Christian salvation history and divine revelation. By contrast, Harry Potter lives in a fictionalized version of our own world that is recognizable in time and space, in a country called England (which is at least nominally a Christian nation), in a timeframe of our own era."

I beg to differ on this point to an extent. unto itself. While the land of wizards is located within our world, it is magically concealed so that it is very much a world unto itself. "Lord of the Rings" takes place prehistoric England-- in this world. While Narnia is very much its own world, there are instances of people from Narnia and, of course, people from are world, crossing the
boundary. A prime example of this is "The Silver Chair." There are many places where Narnia and this world intersect-- the wardrobe, the Wood Between the Worlds, the cave in "Prince Caspian", etc. The "hedge" also points out that both worlds take place outside Judeo-Christian revelation. Well, since "Lord of the Rings" is supposed to take place in this world, isn't that somewhat arguable?

2) "Reinforcing the above point, in Tolkien’s and Lewis’s fictional worlds where magic is
practiced, the existence of magic is an openly known reality of which the inhabitants of those worlds are as aware as we are of rocket science — even if most of them might have as little chance of actually encountering magic as most of us would of riding in the space shuttle. By contrast, Harry Potter lives in a world in which magic is a secret, hidden reality acknowledged openly only among a magical elite, a world in which (as in our world) most people apparently believe there is no such thing as magic."

As I've said before, they world of "Harry Potter" is very much a world unto itself, and magic is known within that world. Do you expect magic of Narnia to be known or believed in this world? And, apparently, in "Lord of the Rings" all the knowledge of magic in this world is lost throughout the ages. The magic in "Harry Potter" is also very scientific, very much "say gibberish Latin word" and "so and so happens".

3) Tolkien and Lewis confine the pursuit of magic as a safe and lawful occupation to
characters who are numbered among the supporting cast, not the protagonists with whom the reader is primarily to identify. By contrast, Harry Potter, a student of wizardry, is the title character and hero of his novels."

I beg to differ. Lucy, a main character uses a spell to turn the Duffers visible in "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader." Susan, a main character, uses a magic horn throughout "The Chronicles of Narnia". And I think it is debatable wether Gandalf is a supporting character or not-- he could definitely be considered a main character. And besides, does it really matter if its only the supporting characters who use magic? If they’re protagonists, and well-written, there’s just as much a chance that the readers will sympathize with them.

4) "Reinforcing the above point, Tolkien and Lewis include cautionary threads in which exposure to magical forces proves to be a corrupting influence on their protagonists: Frodo is almost consumed by the great Ring; Lucy and Digory succumb to temptation and use magic in ways they shouldn’t. By contrast, the practice of magic is Harry Potter’s salvation from his horrible relatives and from virtually every adversity he must overcome."

There are examples of corrupting magic in “Harry Potter”. One is the Mirror of Erised– a mirror that allows the looker-on to see what their heart desires most. Harry discovers it in the first book, and, seeing his parents in the mirror, comes back night after night to look at them, becoming obsessed. One night, he is found by Professor Dumbledore, who tells him the truth about the mirror:

“‘Now, can you tell me what the Mirror of Erised shows us all?”
Harry shook his head.
“Let me explain. The happiest man on earth would be able to use the Mirror of Erised like a normal mirror, that is, he would look into it and see himself exactly as he is. Does that help?”
Harry thought. Then he said slowly, “It shows us what we want. . . whatever we want. . .”
“Yes and no,” said Dumbledore quietly. “It shows us nothing more than the deepest, most desperate desire of our hearts. You, who have never known your family, see them standing around you. Ronald Weasley, who has always be overshadowed by his brothers, sees himself standing alone, the best of them all. However, this mirror will give us neither knowledge nor truth. Men have wasted away before it, entrance by what they have seen, or been driven mad, not knowing if what it shows is real or even possible.
“The Mirror will be moved to a new home tomorrow, Harry, and I must ask you to not go looking for it again. If you ever do run across it, you will now be prepared. It does not do to dwell on dreams Harry and forget to live.”
– “Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone,” Pg. 214, Scholastic Edition


As for Harry being "saved" from his relatives by magic, couldn’t I also say the same thing about the Pevinsives? In “The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe” they’re “saved” from war-torn England and go through a magic wardrobe to a land overflowing with magic where they are the fufillment of a prophecy. And magic doesn’t save Harry from every adversary that he must overcome– It is made clear over and over again
that it is his bravery and good heart that saves him. Magic is only used as a tool.

5) "Tolkien and Lewis confine the pursuit of magic as a safe and lawful occupation to characters who are not in fact human beings (for although Gandalf and Coriakin are human in appearance, we are in fact told that they are, respectively, a semi-incarnate angelic being and an earthbound star.) In Harry Potter’s world, by contrast, while some human beings (called “Muggles”) lack the capacity for magic, others (including Harry’s true parents and of course Harry himself) do not."

Is Lucy not a human? Is Susan not a human? Is Dr. Corneilius or the Bard at the Gate not human? Whatever Tom Bombadil is I'm almost certain he's not a Maiar-- and neither are the elves-- they're a different species from humans, but they're just as earthbound. Not to mention, doesn't Isildur-- a human-- place a curse on those kings who refuse to help him, trapping them in a mountain? A curse which only Aragorn can undo?

6) "Reinforcing the above point, Tolkien and Lewis emphasize the pursuit of magic as the safe and lawful occupation of characters who, in appearance, stature, behavior, and role, embody a certain wizard archetype — white-haired old men with beards and robes and staffs, mysterious, remote, unapproachable, who serve to guide and mentor the heroes. Harry Potter, by contrast, is a wizard-in-training who is in many crucial respects the peer of many of his avid young readers, a boy with the same problems and interests that they have."

I don't see how Galadriel, Tom Bombadil, Isildur, or anyone else in "The Lord of the Rings" who practices magic besides Gandalf and Saruman fit this wizard archetype. Lucy and Susan in "The Chronicles of Narnia" certainly are the peers of many of the readers, go to school, etc.

7) "Finally, Tolkien and Lewis devote no narrative space to the process by which their magical specialists acquire their magical prowess. Although study may be assumed as part of the back story, the wizard appears as a finished product with powers in place, and the reader is not in the least encouraged to think about or dwell on the process of acquiring prowess in magic. In the Harry Potter books, by contrast, Harry’s acquisition of mastery over magical forces at the Hogwarts School of Wizardry and Witchcraft is a central organizing principle in the story-arc of the series as a whole."

To think of Harry as an example to readers to go out and try to get magical power is ridiculous, because, by the rules of the story itself, they can't. Its made very clear that to be a wizard you have to have the gene. Its not something you can tap into. Not to mention that the Rowling describes most classes as -- "and they said "Wingardim Leviosa" and the feather flew up" or something along those lines. Any person who tries Wingardium Leviosa will see that nothing happens. And while the learning process isn't covered in "The Lord of the Rings" or "The Chronicles of Narnia", it is at least made clear in Narnia that magic is learnable (Dr. Corneilius.)

-- To make two points on certain parts of the rest of the article (as this post is already long enough) the writer of the article said that Lucy using the spellbook to spy on her friends was proof that the spellbook wasn't meant for her to use. This doesn't make sense, as it is said in the book that any little girl is able to use the book-- surely that's not just by accident? They also point out that the use of astrology in "Prince Caspian" is simply a pointer to the use of astrology by the Magi. Is the same true of the two times that astrology is used by the centaurs in "Prince Caspian" and "The Last Battle"?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Father Niko

Chaplain
Dec 4, 2004
4,120
92
41
Skövde
✟4,721.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
WizardBoy01 said:
LOTR says that this ring will destroy the world so thats liek tha anti-christ, and than wizards who openly practice witch craft go to destroy it. there are demons and creatures from hell and the heros are all possesed buy the ring(anti-christ) so if you don't like harry potter because of witchcraft this is worse guys.

I would say the LOTR has alot in common with the Old Good Book of ours and Tolkien aws a chritian writer as Lewis was. You can say that Gandalf is Jesus and Sauron Satan and there is mutch more. I say LOTR is not from Satan.
 
Upvote 0

SuperNova

Active Member
Dec 20, 2004
263
27
45
Memphis, TN
Visit site
✟8,119.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The cronicles of Narnia were written as a metaphore of Christianity to teach children the principles of the gospel. The lion Aslan was a metaphore for Jesus. In the first book, the magician's nephew we see him creating narnia. narnia comes into existance by the sound of his voice. And when he finds humans already there he calls then, "sons of adam" and "daughters of eve" as if he already knew who and what they were. In the lion, the witch, and the wordrobe he died for narnia and was ressurected to defeat the witch who I believe is a metaphore for the devil. Not sure what the metaphore was in the boy and his horse. I figured it was to lay the foundation for prince caspian, which I'm still in the middle of.

What you fail to understand is as Christians we understand the concept of fiction. And we understand the concept of using fiction as a metaphore for non-fiction.
 
Upvote 0

Eruliel

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2005
663
48
36
In Christ
Visit site
✟1,065.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Of course Aslan knew who the children were, and he knew who Adam and Eve were. He's Jesus! Remember in Voyage of the Dawn Treader he tells Lucy that through knowing him a little in Narnia she would get to know him better in her world? He was talking about his human form and name: Jesus.
Anyway I don't think Tolkiens LOTR was meant to be an allegory. It only came out as allegoricalish because the man had such a firm belief in his Christianity that it flavored his writing, much like a tea bag turns ordinary hot water into a delicious beverage. C.S. Lewis was writing a blatant all out allegory with the Chronicles.
Slainte!
Eruliel
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Witness Of His Love

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2005
1,224
94
71
✟16,905.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Fletcher, this is in response to your post of August 23Rd
47.gif


King Saul of Israel went to a medium to call up the ghost of Samuel. In 1 Samuel 28: 14-20 Saul talks to Samuel's ghost. More importantly, Samuel's ghost answers back!
39.gif


"And he said unto her, (the medium), What is his form? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel and he stooped to the ground, and bowed himself.

And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am greviously distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God hath departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known to me what I shall do.


Samuel then proceeds to tell Saul he has become the enemy of God so why should Samuel help him? He tells Saul that by the next day he and his sons would be with Samuel, meaning dead, and Israel would be given to the Philistines.

I didn't relate the above to endorse using mediums and rituals to conjure up ghosts - far from it. God was angry with Samuel and had turned his back on him and Samuel proved his further disobedience by consulting the medium which God has forbidden us to do.

But I thought it should be noted Harry Potter books are not the only ones that have ghosts in them.
03.gif


Back to LOTR thread topic:

If I felt my walk with the Lord was compromised by reading LOTR, I wouldn't read it. It's just a good rule-of-thumb for anything we do.

Peace
legolas.jpg
 
Upvote 0

John Digman

Active Member
Jun 24, 2005
54
2
31
Warp galaxy 3.9/65 quadrent 79
✟186.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Labour
I think that a book is a book..... I mean - i really don't care that someone else might read HP or LOTR of whatever. I love fantasy and Sci-Fi and I don't see myself as being evil or breaking the ten Commandments.
 
Upvote 0

New_Found_Faith

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2004
5,000
228
✟30,978.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
John Digman said:
I think that a book is a book..... I mean - i really don't care that someone else might read HP or LOTR of whatever. I love fantasy and Sci-Fi and I don't see myself as being evil or breaking the ten Commandments.

Agreed. Reps for that. :)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

New_Found_Faith

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2004
5,000
228
✟30,978.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Father Niko said:
I would say the LOTR has alot in common with the Old Good Book of ours and Tolkien aws a chritian writer as Lewis was. You can say that Gandalf is Jesus and Sauron Satan and there is mutch more. I say LOTR is not from Satan.

Rowling claims she is a Christain as well, and why should we doubt her? Because she writes fiction stories? Of course not.
 
Upvote 0