Losing salvation

[newme20]

Hello again newme20, I will renew (to further emphasize) my recommendation/advice to seek counsel from your pastor concerning all of this .. e.g. Hebrews 13:17. This will also help him know how to be in prayer for you, specifically.

That said, I have a question for you for clarity's sake (about some of what you just wrote). When you said that you were still driven to other things, how quickly (after the day that you came to saving faith) did you begin to desire and pursue "other things" again? (by "other things" I assume that you mean things of this world, yes?)

Also, it's important to remember that our "feelings" are normally the very last thing that we should be listening to (concerning spiritual matters), especially when sin is involved. Satan is masterful at using our feelings to convince us that what God says is not true (at least for us anyway). So, first and foremost, we need to be continually growing in the knowledge and understanding of God's word (because the better that we know the Truth, the quicker and easier it will be to recognize Satan's lies and deceptions/half-truths about it).

Finally, we must be DETERMINED to believe/trust God by ~always~ choosing to take Him at His word, no matter what (no matter what our "feelings" are telling us in the moment and/or what Satan may be whispering in our ears, IOW, ~anything~ that tells us otherwise). By doing so (by choosing to believe/trust exactly what God says to us in His word as true), you will also be both honoring and pleasing to Him (unless you feel that He is ~not~ worthy of your trust for some reason, and if that is the case, please let me/us know right away).

This (trusting God/His word, rather than Satan and/or your feelings) is not easy for us to do at first (as our feelings are hard for us to look past), but I promise you that it will become easier and easier to do as time goes on

Here are three verses that I believe you will find useful to remember (as practical/real life help in winning the spiritual battle that you are facing).

2 Corinthians 10​

5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. ​

​

Ephesians 6​

12 Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.​

​

James 4​

7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.​

So, whenever you have thoughts/feelings that enter your mind that you know are not true (anything that stands opposed to what God tells us in the Bible, IOW), take those thoughts "captive" immediately and REFUSE to accept them (again and again and again, as often as necessary). This will be difficult to do at first and it will not "feel" natural (as I said above), and Satan will probably continue to attack you with the same thoughts/feelings over and over again, so it will probably become both frustrating and tiring to do so, but when you persevere in resisting the enemy (even so), know that He will finally "flee from you", just like God promises us that He will (this will not happen w/o a great deal of effort and persistence on your part, especially when you first begin to do so).

If you miss him (meaning Satan ), no worries, because he'll be back , but I think you'll find that his "visits" will become shorter and less frequent once he realizes that you are going to resist him whenever he shows up (by believing/trusting God's truth instead of his lies).

Lastly, the feeling of "hollowness" that you are experiencing right now will begin to lesson (as you begin to put your faith and trust in God/in His word again, and begin to walk in obedience to it, of course) and the "joy" of your salvation (which includes that "feeling" of closeness to Him) will return to you over time (so be patient). Remember, it's not God who leaves us when we sin, rather, we're the ones who choose to distance ourselves from Him (and thereby from the close fellowship that we once experienced with Him).

So (for instance), the next time that you ask God to forgive you and cleanse you of your sins (1 John 1:9), choose to believe (to know) that that is EXACTLY what has happened .. because He told you that it would (even if it doesn't "FEEL" like it has in the moment). Nothing in our lives is more important than knowing Him and growing in our relationship with Him, our loving Abba (heavenly "Father") who ~always~ wants what is best for us

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - I've found that choosing to look for things to rejoice in and thank Him for throughout the day (even the simplest of things) is a great help to my walk because it helps me draw nearer to Him (and it helps us move toward being obedient to the wonderful commands that follow, which are all a GREAT blessing to us, yes )

1 Thessalonians 5​

16 Rejoice always;​

17 pray without ceasing;​

18 in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.​

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It was a couple years after I came to faith in christ. I loved the lord but like with every born again christian I struggled with the flesh. Wanting to have things in the world like to work out in a gym and stuff wich I was putting before god. I new god was calling me to just him alone. I will copy something I wrote to a brother in christ describing what happened more clearly if it's ok. I became a born again christian about 10 years ago i was radically on fire for the lord preaching the word in righteousness against many who were even at my church. I studied the Bible every day. Although I feel like I was put in a bad place to start in that I was going to a church that taught once saved always saved and many of its members I new where not genuinely born again and many of the other ones i new had devided interests. But I began blending with them more and more about a couple years after my anitial conversion. About a few years after I became a christian, i started out with didvide interests, and watching secular movies and TV, I was quenching the holy spirit, and had divided interests like wanting some things in the world. Then shortly after it led to brazin sin in order to shut out the noise of the holy spirit. I was not even really tempted to it but I almost did it in a state of insanity, I continued with this sin about 4 or 5 times and each time I felt the holy spirit warning me, and about the fifth time I felt him warn me not to do it once more, but without thinking and suddenly thinking I would just confess it to him I did it again. I think the reason I did it was because I was depressed and was almost trying to self harm because i was still trying to drown out the noise of the holy spirit. I could have said no and not done it. It felt as though he left me immediately after in that i could watch secular movies do secular things and i no longer felt his conviction. The next day i woke up and tried to confess it like it says in 1st john 1 verse 9 if we confess our sins he is faithfull and just to forgive. But this time i couldnt feel his assurance anymore and was panicked. and now it's been 8 years since, for the last 8 years I've been trying to convince myself that everything is OK and to hide from the experiance I hade. And the fact I didn't feel the holy spirit with me anymore. But I have now totally come to my senses and can't hide anymore I am faced with guilt and fear. My question for you is if you believe a christian can lose salvation? and if you would have any advice or words to say to me from the lord? Thanks.

 

[St_Worm2]

It was a couple years after I came to faith in christ. I loved the lord but like with every born again christian I struggled with the flesh. Wanting to have things in the world like to work out in a gym and stuff which I was putting before god. I knew god was calling me to just him alone.

Hello again newme20, as a new believer you struggled with temptation and sometimes sin (as many do in their early 20's .. as you were, yes?), but you were also consistently contrite/penitent, yes?

Also, in what way do you believe that you were putting things like working out in a gym before God, as working out hardly negates putting God first in your life? (as I'm sure you know, there is nothing that is inherently sinful about staying healthy).

I became a born again christian about 10 years ago i was radically on fire for the lord preaching the word in righteousness against many who were even at my church. I studied the Bible every day. Although I feel like I was put in a bad place to start in that I was going to a church that taught once saved always saved and many of its members I new where not genuinely born again and many of the other ones i new had devided interests.

I'm glad that you were regularly studying Scripture, though sadly, your church environment doesn't sound atypical to me (or even surprising .. e.g. Matthew 7:22-23, 13:24-30, 36-43). However, God gave us the church (even with its many foibles and disappointments) as a means of lovingly supporting one another in the faith (those who are stronger in one area of the faith helping those who are weaker, for instance).

As for your church teaching OSAS, there is nothing wrong with them doing that (the Bible seems to .. e.g. John 3:16, 5:24, 6:37-40, 10:27-28; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25......), as long as the church's emphasis is focused on the 'getting saved' side of the equation (because the "AS" half can never be true unless the "OS" half is already/truly in place).

Finally, I believe that the principal ministry of those who are babes/young in Christ is sitting at the Lord's feet and learning everything that they can from Him .. e.g. Luke 10:38-42 (with a little witnessing to others about what becoming a Christian has meant to them personally, perhaps), as there is real (spiritual) danger in having them do much more than that (apart from the Lord's specific leading, that is) .. e.g. 1 Timothy 3:6 (both to themselves and to others).

But I began blending with them more and more about a couple years after my anitial conversion. About a few years after I became a christian, i started out with didvide interests, and watching secular movies and TV, I was quenching the holy spirit, and had divided interests like wanting some things in the world. Then shortly after it led to brazin sin in order to shut out the noise of the holy spirit. I was not even really tempted to it but I almost did it in a state of insanity, I continued with this sin about 4 or 5 times and each time I felt the holy spirit warning me, and about the fifth time I felt him warn me not to do it once more, but without thinking and suddenly thinking I would just confess it to him I did it again. I think the reason I did it was because I was depressed and was almost trying to self harm because i was still trying to drown out the noise of the holy spirit. I could have said no and not done it. It felt as though he left me immediately after in that i could watch secular movies do secular things and i no longer felt his conviction.

Watching secular movies and TV shows could be burdensome to your walk, but they are not, in and of themselves, sinful for a Christian to do so (unless there are other factors involved, of course, like how someone is personally affected by what they are seeing and hearing, going against one's conscience, etc.).

Also, your trying to "drown out the noise of the Holy Spirit" is a bit concerning! What was behind your choice to do so is one of the very first things that I would explore with your pastor when you talk to him.

The next day i woke up and tried to confess it like it says in 1st john 1 verse 9 if we confess our sins he is faithfull and just to forgive. But this time i couldnt feel his assurance anymore and was panicked.

Assurance can be a fleeting thing in a true believer's life, especially when sin is present and the believer is impenitent. On the flipside, it is also possible for someone who was never saved to believe and have a false assurance that they are (truly saved, that is), which is why taking the time to be sure is so vital.

As far as a true believer's salvation, it's not lost due to sinning, but the "joy" and the sense of closeness to Him that His salvation brings to us always is.

What can be learned, from impenitence and indifference (to sinning), if either or both are present is this, such a person (at the very least) needs to examine themselves to be sure that they are truly saved/truly in the faith (as nothing is more important than knowing that, of course).

and now it's been 8 years since, for the last 8 years I've been trying to convince myself that everything is OK and to hide from the experiance I hade. And the fact I didn't feel the holy spirit with me anymore. But I have now totally come to my senses and can't hide anymore I am faced with guilt and fear. My question for you is if you believe a christian can lose salvation? and if you would have any advice or words to say to me from the lord? Thanks.

I do not believe that a true Christian/true believer can lose their salvation, because I believe that God secures us in it from the moment that He saves us unto Glory. What I do believe is that there are ~many~ in our churches who are deceived (I know that I was for years), those who may claim and even believe themselves to be Christians, but who are not/never were, which is why all of us are commanded to make sure that we are truly saved , instead of truly deceived

This leads me right back to you meeting, perhaps regularly for a time, with your pastor. I suppose I should have asked you this first, do have a pastor to talk to/are you attending church and going to a Bible Study, etc.? God never intended for any of us to try to live this difficult life, the Christian life, apart from the teaching and authority of the church, and/or apart from regular fellowship with other believers, because we simply are not strong enough to do so.

As far as words of advice go, I've already been given the best advice that I know here and in my previous posts (not knowing you and your situation personally limits what I feel comfortable saying, of course). Again however (first and foremost), call your pastor and talk to him about all of this (or go find a pastor & a church immediately if you don't have them now). Then have him help you understand where you are in your Christian walk right now (and, of course, to make sure that you truly have one).

Question, is your desire to be a Christian (and therein your desire to stop sinning/to be delivered from your carnality and worldliness in this life) based mostly upon your fear of judgment (in the age to come), or is due to the fact that you have truly come to love God as your heavenly Abba with all of your heart, such that your true fear lies in displeasing and disappointing Him in the here and now instead (with no real/ongoing fear about the future/future judgment)?

*(Just to be clear, all of the above is not me saying that you are NOT a true Christian, rather, it's me telling you that, first and foremost, you need to make certain that you are (or that you are not if that is the case), and then to move forward in that knowledge).

Thanks!

Praying for you!

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - the last thing that I wanted to point out to you is that I am sensing a kind of legalism about the Christian faith from the some of the things that you've been telling me about yourself. The thing is, we are saved (from first to last) by God/by His mercy and grace (UN-merited favor/gracious choice to do so), and by the things that He has done/is continuing to do for us. As our loving, heavenly Abba, He sees those He has adopted as His family such that our true value to Him is found in who we are to Him, NOT in anything that we do for Him (IOW, He sees us as His children, as human beings, NOT human doings).

Here is one of my favorite Christian quotes (from pastor/theologian Charles Spurgeon). If you have a few moments, carefully consider all that he is saying in this quote (and why it may be important for you).

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf,
so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Corinthians 5:21​

 

[newme20]

Hello again newme20, as a new believer you struggled with temptation and sometimes sin (as many do in their early 20's .. as you were, yes?), but you were also consistently contrite/penitent, yes?

Also, in what way do you believe that you were putting things like working out in a gym before God, as working out hardly negates putting God first in your life? (as I'm sure you know, there is nothing that is inherently sinful about staying healthy).


I'm glad that you were regularly studying Scripture, though sadly, your church environment doesn't sound atypical to me (or even surprising .. e.g. Matthew 7:22-23, 13:24-30, 36-43). However, God gave us the church (even with its many foibles and disappointments) as a means of lovingly supporting one another in the faith (those who are stronger in one area of the faith helping those who are weaker, for instance).

As for your church teaching OSAS, there is nothing wrong with them doing that (the Bible seems to .. e.g. John 3:16, 5:24, 6:37-40, 10:27-28; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25......), as long as the church's emphasis is focused on the 'getting saved' side of the equation (because the "AS" half can never be true unless the "OS" half is already/truly in place).

Finally, I believe that the principal ministry of those who are babes/young in Christ is sitting at the Lord's feet and learning everything that they can from Him .. e.g. Luke 10:38-42 (with a little witnessing to others about what becoming a Christian has meant to them personally, perhaps), as there is real (spiritual) danger in having them do much more than that (apart from the Lord's specific leading, that is) .. e.g. 1 Timothy 3:6 (both to themselves and to others).


Watching secular movies and TV shows could be burdensome to your walk, but they are not, in and of themselves, sinful for a Christian to do so (unless there are other factors involved, of course, like how someone is personally affected by what they are seeing and hearing, going against one's conscience, etc.).

Also, your trying to "drown out the noise of the Holy Spirit" is a bit concerning! What was behind your choice to do so is one of the very first things that I would explore with your pastor when you talk to him.


Assurance can be a fleeting thing in a true believer's life, especially when sin is present and the believer is impenitent. On the flipside, it is also possible for someone who was never saved to believe and have a false assurance that they are (truly saved, that is), which is why taking the time to be sure is so vital.

As far as a true believer's salvation, it's not lost due to sinning, but the "joy" and the sense of closeness to Him that His salvation brings to us always is.

What can be learned, from impenitence and indifference (to sinning), if either or both are present is this, such a person (at the very least) needs to examine themselves to be sure that they are truly saved/truly in the faith (as nothing is more important than knowing that, of course).


I do not believe that a true Christian/true believer can lose their salvation, because I believe that God secures us in it from the moment that He saves us unto Glory. What I do believe is that there are ~many~ in our churches who are deceived (I know that I was for years), those who may claim and even believe themselves to be Christians, but who are not/never were, which is why all of us are commanded to make sure that we are truly saved , instead of truly deceived

This leads me right back to you meeting, perhaps regularly for a time, with your pastor. I suppose I should have asked you this first, do have a pastor to talk to/are you attending church and going to a Bible Study, etc.? God never intended for any of us to try to live this difficult life, the Christian life, apart from the teaching and authority of the church, and/or apart from regular fellowship with other believers, because we simply are not strong enough to do so.

As far as words of advice go, I've already been given the best advice that I know here and in my previous posts (not knowing you and your situation personally limits what I feel comfortable saying, of course). Again however (first and foremost), call your pastor and talk to him about all of this (or go find a pastor & a church immediately if you don't have them now). Then have him help you understand where you are in your Christian walk right now (and, of course, to make sure that you truly have one).

Question, is your desire to be a Christian (and therein your desire to stop sinning/to be delivered from your carnality and worldliness in this life) based mostly upon your fear of judgment (in the age to come), or is due to the fact that you have truly come to love God as your heavenly Abba with all of your heart, such that your true fear lies in displeasing and disappointing Him in the here and now instead (with no real/ongoing fear about the future/future judgment)?

*(Just to be clear, all of the above is not me saying that you are NOT a true Christian, rather, it's me telling you that, first and foremost, you need to make certain that you are (or that you are not if that is the case), and then to move forward in that knowledge).

Thanks!

Praying for you!

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - the last thing that I wanted to point out to you is that I am sensing a kind of legalism about the Christian faith from the some of the things that you've been telling me about yourself. The thing is, we are saved (from first to last) by God/by His mercy and grace (UN-merited favor/gracious choice to do so), and by the things that He has done/is continuing to do for us. As our loving, heavenly Abba, He sees those He has adopted as His family such that our true value to Him is found in who we are to Him, NOT in anything that we do for Him (IOW, He sees us as His children, as human beings, NOT human doings).

Here is one of my favorite Christian quotes (from pastor/theologian Charles Spurgeon). If you have a few moments, carefully consider all that he is saying in this quote (and why it may be important for you).

View attachment 331797

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf,
so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Corinthians 5:21​

Thanks for the reply. I don't agree fully that are fear only comes in displeasing god after were saved. I believe when it says to fear god it means what it says otherwise how could we grieve the spirit at all in our christian life? How could we ever feel uneasy in our sin as a christian if our sin only makes us feel sad? Doesn't the bible say worldly sorrow leads to death and godly repentance leads to life? To me I feel like now looking back at my walk when I was first saved, there's only so much sin the spirit tolerates in our lives as believers and if we fill all the way our sin and completely quench the spirits work then we longer have an excuse and we can fall under gods wrath. That's how I see it looking back now, because one thing I no I was walking by the spirit and growing in my walk I was born again trust me lol. May I ask you an honest question? Do you believe hypothetically speaking I don't wish this upon you or anybody that if you chose to ignore the spirit and began say, fornicating cursing, getting angry, holding unforgiveness again and started to live a life following your flesh and continued in it that you would still remain saved? Now many people will say we can't continue in sin because we have the spirit and it's true Christians do and we respond to him when convicted edleast were supposed to. But suppose you don't and ignore all common since and reason and continue in sin do you believe that you would end up in hell? even though you were once truly born again? When I say send someone to hell as a christian I mean it differently then as a nonbeliever. In a christian case if sin could ever send them to hell they would be aware of it they would have to become unborn again so to speak, they would no they once walked with god and they would no they have guilt on them and the fearfull expectation of the wrath of god, they would even no aprixomatly when they fell away and when the spirit left them. Where as a non Christian would be dead in sin and stay dead and go to hell. So my honest question would be in light of this do you believe sin could ever send you, because you no you are saved to hell? I'm sorry if I sound crazy asking these questions I'm not convinced of this myself and I hope I'm wrong and that I am still saved obviously, I just hope you will bare with me in my foolishness to answer my dumb question? thank you.

 

[St_Worm2]

Thanks for the reply. I don't agree fully that are fear only comes in displeasing god after were saved. I believe when it says to fear god it means what it says otherwise how could we grieve the spirit at all in our christian life? How could we ever feel uneasy in our sin as a christian if our sin only makes us feel sad?

Hello again newme20, I can only speak from experience, but the depth of my emotional response to sin, IOW, what I feel when I sin today as a believer, does not compare to what I felt for the first 30 years of my life when I sinned (when I only "thought" that I was saved, but was not). Oh, there was one time (I believe when I was in Jr High and had just returned from a church retreat) that I got pretty emotional about a new, BIG sin when I committed it, but that only lasted for a minute. I felt a little guilt and worry (that was atypically profound for me back then), but I was never shaken to my core, even then, the way that I have been over sin since becoming a Christian, 36+ years ago.

Back then I wasn't saved, so I had no salvation and close personal relationship with the Living God to lose, even temporarily. I was like every other unsaved person on the planet, a child of wrath with a fallen/sinful nature, whose principal desire was finding things to do that were pleasing to me. Sin quickly became something that I looked forward to doing, far more than avoiding it (if sin wasn't "fun", no one would do it, yes?). So, what did I 'really' have to lose back then when I sinned? Almost nothing, in point of fact (I didn't like the tinge of guilt/worry that I felt sometimes, but that always passed quickly).

On the other hand, what a believer stands to loose when we sin is EVERYTHING that is important to us (save our salvation, of course, which I believe God secures for us, all of His adopted children, that is, as I, along with a number of Bible verses/passages, pointed out to you in my last post). Everything about sinning as a believer seems/is wrong, starting with the fact that when we do so, we act ~against~ our new nature or new self in Christ (unlike the reprobate who always acts ~according~ to his/her fallen nature whenever they sin).

Do I feel "sad" whenever I've sinned as a believer? Absolutely, but it is SO much more than that/SO much deeper than that, particularly when my sinful choices exceed the peccadillo/foible level (though I find that even the most minor of sins that I commit are very disturbing to me, nonetheless). So, for those (and other) reasons, my GREAT emotional response to sin today, as a believer, does not compare to my mildly negative (or utter lack of) emotional response to sin when I was still an unbeliever, not even close (and I have found that this is the case with other believers as well, just FYI).

Sinning as a believer also results in what feels like physical pain to me (I'm sure that it is mental/emotional pain, but it feels like physical pain too, because sinning always rocks my world/touches every part of me, down to my very core). What I feel when I sin is similar to what I feel when I do or say something that is mean/hurtful/disrespectful/disappointing to someone I love, because I know that I have hurt them and, to one degree or another, have harmed our relationship. I am left feeling horrible/devastated, and grieved over what I did/said that was so hurtful to my loved one.

My posts are getting to be too long (sorry about that), so I'll stop here (and, hopefully, finish up my reply to the rest of your post in my next post).

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - here's another Christian quote for you to consider, from theologian and pastor A.W. Pink. Its principal focus is on evangelism and the evangelist, but it does speak about something that is important to think about when we are looking to obey the command to test and examine ourselves, to see if we are truly in the faith .. 2 Corinthians 13:5.
I believe that the Lord Jesus came to save us from our sins .. e.g. Matthew 1:21, from the penalty of them and thereby God's wrath against us in the age to come, of course but, first and perhaps even foremost, I believe that He came to save us from the power that sin used to hold over us in THIS life, on this side of the grave (such that we are forgiven and reconciled with God and become His children, rather than continuing on as His enemies, and are enabled to finally live a godly life before Him .. e.g. Romans 5:8-10).

 

[St_Worm2]

Doesn't the bible say worldly sorrow leads to death and godly repentance leads to life?

Yes (almost ) .. 2 Corinthians 7:10. Why do you think that is? (IOW, why do you think that worldly sorrow leads to death, while Godly sorrow leads to repentance and eternal life)?

To me I feel like now looking back at my walk when I was first saved, there's only so much sin the spirit tolerates in our lives as believers and if we fill all the way our sin and completely quench the spirits work then we longer have an excuse and we can fall under gods wrath.

I agree that the Holy Spirit can/will make life VERY uncomfortable for an impenitent believer, and that He may even allow an impenitent believer to finally continue in his/her sin, unchecked (so that they begin to feel the weight of what they are doing and return to the fold .. I believe that Paul referred to it as delivering someone over to Satan to receive a stronger discipline, such that their flesh might be destroyed, and that their life might be spared).

Do you believe ... that if you chose to ignore the spirit and began say, fornicating, cursing, getting angry, holding unforgiveness again, and started to live a life following your flesh and continued in it that, you would still remain saved?

I believe that someone who continues to do so (returns to the lifestyle that they led as an unbeliever, for instance) not only willingly leaves fellowship with the visible church behind, they also prove that they were never actually saved, never part of the invisible church, the one that only God is able to clearly see .. e.g. 1 John 2:15 (no matter how much they may have looked like real Christians to others in their church, and perhaps even believed themselves to be, as well e.g. .. Matthew 7:22-23).

It's possible for a true believer to find themselves fallen and trapped in a lifestyle of sin again, but only for a time, because I believe that God has promised to not let any of His children remain is such a state forever .. e.g. Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Jude 24-25 (rather, like Annanias and Saphire, I believe that He may remove errant saints from this world and takes them home, those whose witness has become thoroughly compromised and thereby, unsalvageable, that is).

Now many people will say we can't continue in sin because we have the spirit and it's true Christians do and we respond to him when convicted at least were supposed to. But suppose you don't and ignore all common sense and reason and continue in sin .. do you believe that you would end up in hell? even though you were once truly born again?

The Bible makes it clear that a person who God has caused to be born again and then saved/justified may continue to sin at times, and that we will need to be forgiven and cleansed of it whenever we do .. e.g. 1 John 1:8-10. That said, the Bible also makes it clear that we (those who are born again and saved) will not continue in/return quickly to making sin a regular part of our lives again, as an ongoing, impenitent practice or "lifestyle", that is (at least not forever). Such "believers" (those who fail to persevere in the faith to the end, albeit it imperfectly along the way) prove that they are were never "in Christ", rather, that they are/always have been of the devil and outside of Christ .. e.g. 1 John 3:6-10.

This does not mean that they cannot yet be saved however (as long as they are alive, that is).

When I say send someone to hell as a christian I mean it differently then as a nonbeliever. In a christian case if sin could ever send them to hell they would be aware of it they would have to become unborn again so to speak, they would no they once walked with god and they would no they have guilt on them and the fearfull expectation of the wrath of god, they would even no aprixomatly when they fell away and when the spirit left them. Where as a non Christian would be dead in sin and stay dead and go to hell. So my honest question would be in light of this do you believe sin could ever send you, because you know that you are saved to hell? I'm sorry if I sound crazy asking these questions I'm not convinced of this myself and I hope I'm wrong and that I am still saved obviously, I just hope you will bare with me in my foolishness to answer my dumb question? thank you.

No worries (about asking me anything that you want to)

As far as my answer to your question (in bold above) goes, if I truly am who I believe myself to be "in Christ", then my answer would have to be a resounding "NO" , because of what the Bible teaches us about Divine eternal security and Divine perseverance, or perhaps better, Divine "preservation" (of the saints) .. e.g. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (which enables us to persevere in the faith .. consider also what is said here: WCF/Perseverance; WCF/Assurance).

As I've said several times recently, get together with your pastor and have him help you test and examine yourself to be sure that you are truly in the faith/in Christ, first and foremost, and if you happen to discover that you may not be, be sure to have him help you do something about that immediately!! It's your local pastor (not some dude like me on the Internet) who has the assignment (from Christ as His underservant here on Earth) to help you, give you Godly counsel, pray for you, and to keep a close watch over you/over your soul on this side of the grave .. e.g. Hebrews 13:17. So, while you are always welcome to look for answers here and elsewhere, if you want to "hear it from the horse's mouth" (so to speak), your next inquiry should be made to him instead

Lastly, as I also said earlier in this thread, I think (from what I've read) that you are indeed a believer, but the Bible's admonition for us to make sure (as often as we feel the need to do so) is one that is vital for ALL of us to continue to hear and obey (because NOTHING is more important, especially our pride, than our truly knowing Him, and likewise, Him truly knowing us, yes, because such intimate knowledge of each other "~is~ eternal life", according to the Bible .. e.g. John 17:3).

God bless you!!

--David

 

[Sabertooth]

Can we lose the holy spirit through deliberate sins? I feel like I lost my salvation through grieving the [Holy] spirit, can anyone help?

When that possibility no longer troubles you, then it will be a problem.
Is there any reason why you cannot repent of (whatever it is/was) right now...?

Also, I hear a lot of OCD in your prior posts. Are you dealing with that?

The Church & Mental Illness...

These USA churches are good at dealing with mental illnesses (such as schizophrenia, obsessive-compulsive disorder, etc.), Vineyard, Assembly of God, Foursquare Church (Links above are locators.) They are present in other countries, as well...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Sabertooth]

...grieving the hoky spirit,...

Given the topic, you may want to correct this spelling in the OP...

 

[SunshineHollyDay]

Can we lose the holy spirit through deliberate sins? I feel like I lost my salvation through grieving the hoky spirit, can anyone help?

Yes, you can cause the Holy Spirit to depart. Some have been able to repent and are given another chance such as the prodigal son, but it seems others aren’t able to repent because they’re no longer granted repentance and so therefore are no longer forgivable because there’s no more blood or sacrifice for their sins since it was post conversion and it was deliberate willful sins. Your only hope is to cry out to God and repent.

 

[Whiteflight99]

It was a couple years after I came to faith in christ. I loved the lord but like with every born again christian I struggled with the flesh. Wanting to have things in the world like to work out in a gym and stuff wich I was putting before god. I new god was calling me to just him alone. I will copy something I wrote to a brother in christ describing what happened more clearly if it's ok. I became a born again christian about 10 years ago i was radically on fire for the lord preaching the word in righteousness against many who were even at my church. I studied the Bible every day. Although I feel like I was put in a bad place to start in that I was going to a church that taught once saved always saved and many of its members I new where not genuinely born again and many of the other ones i new had devided interests. But I began blending with them more and more about a couple years after my anitial conversion. About a few years after I became a christian, i started out with didvide interests, and watching secular movies and TV, I was quenching the holy spirit, and had divided interests like wanting some things in the world. Then shortly after it led to brazin sin in order to shut out the noise of the holy spirit. I was not even really tempted to it but I almost did it in a state of insanity, I continued with this sin about 4 or 5 times and each time I felt the holy spirit warning me, and about the fifth time I felt him warn me not to do it once more, but without thinking and suddenly thinking I would just confess it to him I did it again. I think the reason I did it was because I was depressed and was almost trying to self harm because i was still trying to drown out the noise of the holy spirit. I could have said no and not done it. It felt as though he left me immediately after in that i could watch secular movies do secular things and i no longer felt his conviction. The next day i woke up and tried to confess it like it says in 1st john 1 verse 9 if we confess our sins he is faithfull and just to forgive. But this time i couldnt feel his assurance anymore and was panicked. and now it's been 8 years since, for the last 8 years I've been trying to convince myself that everything is OK and to hide from the experiance I hade. And the fact I didn't feel the holy spirit with me anymore. But I have now totally come to my senses and can't hide anymore I am faced with guilt and fear. My question for you is if you believe a christian can lose salvation? and if you would have any advice or words to say to me from the lord? Thanks.

Hey there @newme20 i want to encourage you brother. I myself have been through what you are experiencing, the feeling of willfully winning to the point you no longer hear the Holy Spirit. I won’t make this long, but I’ve been through that, and God has never left. I promise you this. Jesus really did mean it when he said “it is finished” and those whom he set free are free indeed. And that he would never leave or forsake you. And that not all are faithful but he is faithful and cannot deny himself (YOU) I know you love the Lord, and why is that? Because his love has marked you. However you are seeing yourself through the lense of sin rather than what Christ sees. I have a lot I could say, but I will also say this. During the storm I was in like you are, I was able to speak in tongues when I was around other spirit filled believers. And I STILL doubted lol. So much doubt but God is good and means what he says. Don’t give up man. God bles you abundantly may you see his grace and love for you right now Jesus loves you so much and I’m a living testimony of what you been through. Satan is lying to you but you are also tolerating the lies not even knowing it. That is what God showed me about myself too. I was tolerating the voice that spoke against his love and character.

 

[Whiteflight99]

Yes, you can cause the Holy Spirit to depart. Some have been able to repent and are given another chance such as the prodigal son, but it seems others aren’t able to repent because they’re no longer granted repentance and so therefore are no longer forgivable because there’s no more blood or sacrifice for their sins since it was post conversion and it was deliberate willful sins. Your only hope is to cry out to God and repent.

Read my jesus loving life giving testimony. God is not a lying and he does not take the Holy Spirit from us.

 

[newme20]

Hello again newme20, I will renew (to further emphasize) my recommendation/advice to seek counsel from your pastor concerning all of this .. e.g. Hebrews 13:17. This will also help him know how to be in prayer for you, specifically.

That said, I have a question for you for clarity's sake (about some of what you just wrote). When you said that you were still driven to other things, how quickly (after the day that you came to saving faith) did you begin to desire and pursue "other things" again? (by "other things" I assume that you mean things of this world, yes?)

Also, it's important to remember that our "feelings" are normally the very last thing that we should be listening to (concerning spiritual matters), especially when sin is involved. Satan is masterful at using our feelings to convince us that what God says is not true (at least for us anyway). So, first and foremost, we need to be continually growing in the knowledge and understanding of God's word (because the better that we know the Truth, the quicker and easier it will be to recognize Satan's lies and deceptions/half-truths about it).

Finally, we must be DETERMINED to believe/trust God by ~always~ choosing to take Him at His word, no matter what (no matter what our "feelings" are telling us in the moment and/or what Satan may be whispering in our ears, IOW, ~anything~ that tells us otherwise). By doing so (by choosing to believe/trust exactly what God says to us in His word as true), you will also be both honoring and pleasing to Him (unless you feel that He is ~not~ worthy of your trust for some reason, and if that is the case, please let me/us know right away).

This (trusting God/His word, rather than Satan and/or your feelings) is not easy for us to do at first (as our feelings are hard for us to look past), but I promise you that it will become easier and easier to do as time goes on

Here are three verses that I believe you will find useful to remember (as practical/real life help in winning the spiritual battle that you are facing).

2 Corinthians 10​

5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. ​

​

Ephesians 6​

12 Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.​

​

James 4​

7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.​

So, whenever you have thoughts/feelings that enter your mind that you know are not true (anything that stands opposed to what God tells us in the Bible, IOW), take those thoughts "captive" immediately and REFUSE to accept them (again and again and again, as often as necessary). This will be difficult to do at first and it will not "feel" natural (as I said above), and Satan will probably continue to attack you with the same thoughts/feelings over and over again, so it will probably become both frustrating and tiring to do so, but when you persevere in resisting the enemy (even so), know that He will finally "flee from you", just like God promises us that He will (this will not happen w/o a great deal of effort and persistence on your part, especially when you first begin to do so).

If you miss him (meaning Satan ), no worries, because he'll be back , but I think you'll find that his "visits" will become shorter and less frequent once he realizes that you are going to resist him whenever he shows up (by believing/trusting God's truth instead of his lies).

Lastly, the feeling of "hollowness" that you are experiencing right now will begin to lesson (as you begin to put your faith and trust in God/in His word again, and begin to walk in obedience to it, of course) and the "joy" of your salvation (which includes that "feeling" of closeness to Him) will return to you over time (so be patient). Remember, it's not God who leaves us when we sin, rather, we're the ones who choose to distance ourselves from Him (and thereby from the close fellowship that we once experienced with Him).

So (for instance), the next time that you ask God to forgive you and cleanse you of your sins (1 John 1:9), choose to believe (to know) that that is EXACTLY what has happened .. because He told you that it would (even if it doesn't "FEEL" like it has in the moment). Nothing in our lives is more important than knowing Him and growing in our relationship with Him, our loving Abba (heavenly "Father") who ~always~ wants what is best for us

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - I've found that choosing to look for things to rejoice in and thank Him for throughout the day (even the simplest of things) is a great help to my walk because it helps me draw nearer to Him (and it helps us move toward being obedient to the wonderful commands that follow, which are all a GREAT blessing to us, yes )

1 Thessalonians 5​

16 Rejoice always;​

17 pray without ceasing;​

18 in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.​

.

Thanks for this.

 

[newme20]

Hey there @newme20 i want to encourage you brother. I myself have been through what you are experiencing, the feeling of willfully winning to the point you no longer hear the Holy Spirit. I won’t make this long, but I’ve been through that, and God has never left. I promise you this. Jesus really did mean it when he said “it is finished” and those whom he set free are free indeed. And that he would never leave or forsake you. And that not all are faithful but he is faithful and cannot deny himself (YOU) I know you love the Lord, and why is that? Because his love has marked you. However you are seeing yourself through the lense of sin rather than what Christ sees. I have a lot I could say, but I will also say this. During the storm I was in like you are, I was able to speak in tongues when I was around other spirit filled believers. And I STILL doubted lol. So much doubt but God is good and means what he says. Don’t give up man. God bles you abundantly may you see his grace and love for you right now Jesus loves you so much and I’m a living testimony of what you been through. Satan is lying to you but you are also tolerating the lies not even knowing it. That is what God showed me about myself too. I was tolerating the voice that spoke against his love and character.

This helped alot thanks.

 

[newme20]

This helped alot thanks.

This helped alot thanks.

Also I wanted to ask you a question. Did you get to a point were you began to not believe anymore. Or almost scoff at Christianity? It feels like my mind is completely atheistic and detached from the word. As the scripture says spiritual things are foolish to unbelievers because they are spiritually discerned. I feel like I am somewhere on the outside looking in, and no longer in the driver's seat in my life like I was in christ. I no because I was born again that God is real, but no ability to apply anything, so I'm living in alot of fear all day. Not really sure what is becoming of me. I seek desperately God but I no he is no longer with me, apart of me is in total disbelief that this is even happening. And I try to act like it's all not real, I try to move on somehow even but then something reminds me of my past walk with the lord and the word, and fear grips me again. I go around and around like this. There just seems to be no way for me to get back with him. I polluted my mind and conscience again back to a place of spirituall deadness were the holy spirit is no longer there by looking at inappropriate contentography. When I started looking at it the holy spirit was still in me warning me, I was mainly looking at it to distract myself from the problems I was experiencing in my walk with the lord out of fear and madness. I disobeyed every warning against it until it was to late. I new the moment he had left me. Was this your experience? I'm sure that my experience is very different then others who are still walking with the lord is why I ask?

 

[Beslowtoanger]

I see the Holy Spirit as a balloon….the more you listen to it, the more you love it, the more you act on its advice and wisdom, the bigger it gets. The opposite then simply deflates because sin pains the spirit and becomes that of the flesh not of God, the flesh becomes the inflated balloon.

My advice would be to seek spiritual and Christian mindfulness, meditate with the Holy Ghost and then open your heart to Christ as you did when you first found him. Although Christ never leaves us, our passion for him can dwindle when we are consumed with doubt and earthly desires. Open your heart and thank, not blame him for these days of shadows, for ultimately it will bring you even closer to God.

God bless you

 

[Ceallaigh]

Can we lose the holy spirit through deliberate sins? I feel like I lost my salvation through grieving the hoky spirit, can anyone help?

I think one can leave as in go away from the Holy Spirit, if that's what they choose to do.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I see the Holy Spirit as a balloon….the more you listen to it, the more you love it, the more you act on its advice and wisdom, the bigger it gets. The opposite then simply deflates because sin pains the spirit and becomes that of the flesh not of God, the flesh becomes the inflated balloon.

The Holy Spirit is He who is God, not an it.

 

[Beslowtoanger]

The Holy Spirit is He who is God, not an it.

Yes of course forgive my bad use of the language

 

[Ceallaigh]

That's a keeper.

 

[Whiteflight99]

Also I wanted to ask you a question. Did you get to a point were you began to not believe anymore. Or almost scoff at Christianity? It feels like my mind is completely atheistic and detached from the word. As the scripture says spiritual things are foolish to unbelievers because they are spiritually discerned. I feel like I am somewhere on the outside looking in, and no longer in the driver's seat in my life like I was in christ. I no because I was born again that God is real, but no ability to apply anything, so I'm living in alot of fear all day. Not really sure what is becoming of me. I seek desperately God but I no he is no longer with me, apart of me is in total disbelief that this is even happening. And I try to act like it's all not real, I try to move on somehow even but then something reminds me of my past walk with the lord and the word, and fear grips me again. I go around and around like this. There just seems to be no way for me to get back with him. I polluted my mind and conscience again back to a place of spirituall deadness were the holy spirit is no longer there by looking at inappropriate contentography. When I started looking at it the holy spirit was still in me warning me, I was mainly looking at it to distract myself from the problems I was experiencing in my walk with the lord out of fear and madness. I disobeyed every warning against it until it was to late. I new the moment he had left me. Was this your experience? I'm sure that my experience is very different then others who are still walking with the lord is why I ask?

It’s not your heart that is affected, it’s your mind. Your mind is bombarded with lies of the enemy. Therefore your mind is operating as if the enemy itself sometimes (only because you believe something that is untrue ). But yet, you have the mind of Christ you just need to put it on. The Holy Spirit never leaves and it’s in scripture that those who receive him will never lose him. If anything, GOD wants you back more than you do. His love is greater than yours. Yes his love has marked your heart.

Yes, I’ve been through a whole lot, after the one sin that sent me down, it went more and more down hill. I was so focused on my downfall, it became very very dark. My flesh felt like it had full power over me contrary to my actual desire. This lead to blasphemous thoughts, quick tempered actions, evil mind set patterns etc. it was miserable and I too felt hopeless and beyond help. But yet during all this, I experienced moments of relief, as if I “came to” my self again without thinking or reasoning with the whole issue. especially when I was present with other holy spirited filled believers. I even felt as if I could sometimes see a glimpse of light or like relief. But then I’d start trying to figure out what happened and it brought me down again. More and more, I felt is if I had no choice to either sit in condemnation, or actually believe in Jesus that he still loved me. I started to tune my ear to the Holy Spirit more and more, although I still thought I couldn’t hear the Holy Spirit. my conscious that would say “stop trying to research if you lost salvation because it always makes it worse” I would kind of just ignore it thinking “but I have to” things like that kept happening and I realized I COULD hear the voice of the Lord but I was so stuck on my faults and reasoning that I couldn’t see past it. What helped is to remember and understand the love of Christ again, regardless of my doubts. More and more as I only set my mind on Jesus, the picture became more clear. But they key is to look at Jesus, not the “mess”. Not reasoning with demons.

God gave me a dream too and I knew it meant something. I was in a store, and there were a bunch of tall “handsome” people around me with smiles on their face and they were “friendly” but deep inside I knew they were demons. But in my dream I was tolerating them. This one man (demon) was trying to seduce me and get me to ride in a car with him, and I did, however more and more he became aggressive and possessive over me because he knew I was trying to get away from him. Eventually I left the car, and he became a vicious dog and he charged at my ankle, then before he bites, I stomped on his head. And the dream ended.

God showed me that those demons are my thoughts and reasoning with the lies. The lies are that God does not love us or has forsaken us. In the end, I stomped on his head, (kind of like how the serpent bruised Jesus heel but he CRUSHED satans head) I knew God was showing me to use the power and authority he gave me to over come these lies. However, in order to use that power I need to believe in the source of that power and it’s the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The power that I have DIED with Christ and am ALIVE in him. I am a new creation (2 Corinth 5:17) we need to remember our identity. And we can only do that by believing who Jesus says he is.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Can we lose the holy spirit through deliberate sins? I feel like I lost my salvation through grieving the hoky spirit, can anyone help?

No. To be born again is to have eternal life. Eternal life is, well, eternal. We can grieve or quench the Holy Spirit. That is a temporary situation. It lasts as long as we fail to confess our sin. Relationship is eternal and unbreakable. Fellowship can indeed be broken. Satan will lie to you if you let him. You will have no peace or joy while you live under accusation. Read Revelation12 and you will see what Satan is up to. He is the accuser of the brethren, not God. Jesus lives to intercede for us. He's for us, not against us. Confess your sin freely, no excuses. God will forgive you (1 John 1:9) Don't try to be sorry or any other fake emotion. Stick to the Word - confess!

I went through hell until I learned this principle. I was "saved" one day and "hellbound" the next. We need to quit looking at ourselves and look to Jesus, the Author and Perfector of our faith. That's where victory is found.