Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[faroukfarouk]

I could recite the false doctrine of calvinism and all the points very clearly but i don't believe most of them

by the way Judas is only one of the parts of scripture that defeat the eternal security crowd. there are many other sections and verses .

I also believe that God is able to keep us from falling but only as we abide in faith and continue in the faith grounded and settled and that we are not moved away from the hope of the gospel. We are ket by God is we do not cast off our first faith and then have damnation, or if we do not through the deceitfulness of sin harden our hearts and have an evil heart of unbelief to depart from the living God.

For you, how does Romans 8.38-39 fit in? To me, it's a very strong affirmation of the believer's security for time and eternity; earlier in the chapter (verses 1 and 4) believers are further defined as those 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit'.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I never said the pharisees were believers. What i am pointing out is to call a person the son of perdition or a child of the devil, doesn't mean they were not saved or could not be saved. Judas was clearly saved before he fell and betrayed Jesus. He was a found sheep sent to the lost sheep. He once belonged to the father even as the other 11 before they even met jesus as John 17 and other places show

How do you prove from Scripture that Judas was saved?

 

[SeventyOne]

I never said the pharisees were believers. What i am pointing out is to call a person the son of perdition or a child of the devil, doesn't mean they were not saved or could not be saved. Judas was clearly saved before he fell and betrayed Jesus. He was a found sheep sent to the lost sheep. He once belonged to the father even as the other 11 before they even met jesus as John 17 and other places show

How much more "not saved" could one be if God is calling them a child of the devil?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes, this is my understanding also.

Jesus aid that Judas was his familiar friend and in scripture we read that he once trusted him. Jesus doesn't trust satan ever.

Jesus told Judas and the others to preach to the lost sheep and he sent them as sheep to them. This is clear to the unbiased reader.

I know that this is hard for many who have been under the false security teachings of teacher for a long time to change this view. But scripture is clear

I have not even got into the angels that sinned and some will end up in the lake of fire. They are also an example for believers not to follow that way. Or infants that are born into the world are saved at infancy until they have sin revive ( or their sin nature) then they die spiritually and have to be born again. This would show that all people are saved once then they die.

Or Adam and Eve who had life and were not lost until they sinned and died spiritual and had to be born again. etc etc etc etc etc

 

[Tree of Life]

I could recite the false doctrine of calvinism and all the points very clearly but i don't believe most of them

I've studied Calvin quite a bit and many Calvinists but I must admit I've never heard of the "doctrine of Calvinism". Perhaps you're referring to TULIP - which was not directly taught in this way by Calvin himself, but by his students?

At any rate I'd like to hear what you think the doctrine of Calvinism is and we'll see if you can come up with something that actual Calvinists (like me) would affirm. If not then I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[LoveofTruth]

How much more "not saved" could one be if God is calling them a child of the devil?

at the beginning of Judas ministry he had obtained the ministry and part of it, and later at the end of jesus ministry Judas fell away and betrayed him. Judas was not always lost

 

[LoveofTruth]

I've studied Calvin quite a bit and many Calvinists but I must admit I've never heard of the "doctrine of Calvinism". Perhaps you're referring to TULIP - which was not directly taught in this way by Calvin himself, but by his students?

At any rate I'd like to hear what you think the doctrine of calvinism is and we'll see if you can come up with something that actual Calvinists (like me) would affirm. If not then I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree.

well they call themselves Calvinist" it is another heresy and very wrong in many places. But again thats a whole thread to expose that heresy

 

[LoveofTruth]

I've studied Calvin quite a bit and many Calvinists but I must admit I've never heard of the "doctrine of Calvinism". Perhaps you're referring to TULIP - which was not directly taught in this way by Calvin himself, but by his students?

At any rate I'd like to hear what you think the doctrine of Calvinism is and we'll see if you can come up with something that actual Calvinists (like me) would affirm. If not then I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree.

I can go through the five points of the calvinism error etc . maybe another thread

 

[faroukfarouk]

Jesus aid that Judas was his familiar friend and in scripture we read that he once trusted him. Jesus doesn't trust satan ever.

Jesus told Judas and the others to preach to the lost sheep and he sent them as sheep to them. This is clear to the unbiased reader.

I know that this is hard for many who have been under the false security teachings of teacher for a long time to change this view. But scripture is clear

You mean that the Lord Jesus supposedly did not have the omniscience to know that Judas was crooked? surely you don't mean this?

 

[Tree of Life]

well they call themselves Calvinist" it is another heresy and very wrong in many places. But again thats a whole thread to expose that heresy

Perhaps you could articulate our heresy here. I'd genuinely like to see if what you think that we think is actually what we really think.

 

[Tree of Life]

I can go through the five points of the calvinism error etc . maybe another thread

I don't need you to point out the error. I just want you to articulate my view.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I can go through the five points of the calvinism error etc . maybe another thread

I think it's a good idea for people to use labels as meaning what other people understand by them, or else work through different definitions from Scripture. Because scoring points by referring to labels and then denouncing the labels - whatever the labels may be - is not very meaningful.

 

[LoveofTruth]

How do you prove from Scripture that Judas was saved?

"6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."(John 17:6)

Judas was given to Jesus as we see in matthew 10

"10 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; ...and Judas Iscariot.."

 

[faroukfarouk]

I've studied Calvin quite a bit and many Calvinists but I must admit I've never heard of the "doctrine of Calvinism". Perhaps you're referring to TULIP - which was not directly taught in this way by Calvin himself, but by his students?

At any rate I'd like to hear what you think the doctrine of Calvinism is and we'll see if you can come up with something that actual Calvinists (like me) would affirm. If not then I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree.

Yes, it was Uncle Jake (Arminius) and his followers who came up with a series of propositions, and then Reformed preachers in The Netherlands at Dort in around 1618/19 came up with what they saw as Scriptural responses to those propositions; interestingly, Calvin had died in 1564.

 

[faroukfarouk]

"6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."(John 17:6)

Judas was given to Jesus as we see in matthew 10

"10 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; ...and Judas Iscariot.."

Judas was not faithful, however; he didn't really keep His Word; Scripture says he was a thief.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I don't need you to point out the error. I just want you to articulate my view.

some of the points of Tulip are defeated by infant salvation. This is an area most calvinist don't go. When they hear it they are confused and unsure.

If all infants are saved as they come into the world and then lose salvation when they hate the light and are then condemned and need to be born again. This would defeat the various points of Tulip. This would fight against perserverence of the saints because all were saved once and yet all will not go to God. many will end up in the lake of fire. It also defeats Limited atonement, because all are saved once and Christ died for the sin of the whole world ( infants included). It also defeats the unconditional election because all infants are saved when they come into the world and so they are at that time elect.

 

[tatteredsoul]

ok here are a few

"12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." ( John 17;12 KJV)

and

"
Mark 14:21
The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born."

and

"25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."

and

"28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." ( Psalms 69:28)

John 17:12 I can see, if we say Judas is the son of perdition (the "scripture be fulfilled" part is most convincing.)

Sorry to ask for more, but got any more (anyone?)

 

[tatteredsoul]

Thanks @LoveofTruth, by the way.

 

[Tree of Life]

some of the points of Tulip are defeated by infant salvation. This is an area most calvinist don't go. When they hear it they are confused and unsure.

If all infants are saved as they come into the world and then lose salvation when they hate the light and are then condemned and need to be born again. This would defeat the various points of Tulip. This would fight against perserverence of the saints because all were saved once and yet all will not go to God. many will end up in the lake of fire. It also defeats Limited atonement, because all are saved once and Christ died for the sin of the whole world ( infants included). It also defeats the unconditional election because all infants are saved when they come into the world and so they are at that time elect.

This is just a bunch of weird stuff ^

I'm not convinced that you actually understand the doctrines of grace because you've not yet attempted to articulate them. Could you do this for us please?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Judas was not faithful, however; he didn't really keep His Word; Scripture says he was a thief.

At one time Judas was. Jesus said he was of his household and had the Spirit of the father speaking in him and was a sheep. So to be a sheep , (or as a sheep since none is actually a literal sheep) and to have the father speaking in you and to give the peace of God to theories and be of jesus household you can only do this in faith. Judas also had obtained part of the ministry. The ministry can only be done in Christ.