Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[LoveofTruth]

This is not a legitimate connection.

In Matthew 10 Jesus said that he was sending out his apostles and that they would be "like sheep in the midst of wolves". His point was that association with Jesus was going to be dangerous. Judas was indeed an apostle and was sent out "like a sheep in the midst of wolves". This does not mean that he is included in the "fold" of John 10 discussed below.

In John 10 Jesus said that he is a good shepherd who saves his sheep and gives them eternal life. The point here is that Jesus will certainly save those who are his.

wrong sir, I think we both agree that no human is literally a sheep. It is typological language . But when jesus sent Judas and the other 11 as His sheep to the LOST sheep. He makes a distinction between the ones like sheep he sends. They are saved sheep sent to the lost sheep.

Jesus also said of the 12 that the Spirit of the father would speak in them when needed. God the father does not speak in unbelievers when they want, unless they come to faith .

Jesus said he gives eternal life to his sheep. Judas also once belonged to the father even before he was given to jesus John 17.

 

[LoveofTruth]

IN YOUR OPINION, that means he was saved, but the text doesn't support the conclusion. You have to make those sent in the condition of sheep among wolves to being actual sheep in a spiritual sense. Still grasping at straws with the inaccurate equivication.



I see I left a part out. "Blotted out of the book of the living" = dead, or no longer living. If you suddenly want to make this also the book of life (something completely different), you will need to prove it other than you saying so.



The words of Jesus that John shares was, "and one of you is a devil". Present tense. It was John's words which explain the end works of that devil in his ultimate betrayal. Quit twisting the text.



I've misled no one and I've twisted nothing. The twisting and misleading started at the title of this thread. It is this thread teaching a salvation by works, a false gospel.

You said

"I see I left a part out. "Blotted out of the book of the living" = dead, or no longer living. If you suddenly want to make this also the book of life (something completely different), you will need to prove it other than you saying so."

the verse in Psalms says that they were blotted out of the book of the living. But those in that book are the righteous as the verses show. So if a person was in that book they were written with the RIGHTEOUS", not the unrighteous. This shows that Judas was once righteous and in the book. To not come into thy righteousness, is different than the righteous in that book. To come into the righteousness is to come into the kingdom of God and heaven. The kingdom of God is righteousness joy and peace in the Holy Ghost, and only those who are saved in the book will come into that righteousness. Into a new place wherein dwells righteousness.

again you don't understand the text and miss many parts.

You also said,

"The words of Jesus that John shares was, "and one of you is a devil". Present tense. It was John's words which explain the end works of that devil in his ultimate betrayal. Quit twisting the text."

no John wrote by the Spirit of God not his own words as Paul did when Paul said the things he writes were the commandments of the Lord 1 Cor 14:37, John also wrote by the Spirit. So when John says this he spoke of Judas who should betray him. John was giving the Spirits interpretation of what Jesus mean when he spoke. The words "should betray him" are future tense. Jesus often spoke of things in prophetic as though they were. We see this in John 17 when Jesus ( before his death on the cross said,

"4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." ( John 17:4)

Yet Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet. He spoke prophetically as if it had happened. God told Abrahma similar about his seed etc.

But even if you don't see this Jesus was speaking of Judas after three years or so of ministry, near the end of his ministry. matthew shows Judas at the beginning of his ministry. Obviously Judas fell away by transgression from the place he was before. To say Judas by transgression "fell" in Acts sows he fell from something, And this is not referring to his ministry only, but he fell by transgression. He had abstained part of the ministry and was just as successful as others. One time when disciples came back from ministry Jesus told them not to rejoice that the devils are subject to them but that there names are written in the lambs book of life.

 

[Tree of Life]

My simple question put another way:

If Judas had eternal life and then lost it, in what sense did he ever have it?

 

[LoveofTruth]

I really don't know that we can say much for certain about Judas, given the conflicted & limited info presented in the Bible - let alone whether he was (ever) "saved." I don't find proof-texting very convincing.

I do wonder about Judas though. I think most Christians would agree he betrayed Jesus. I wonder if Judas wanted forgiveness? If Jesus could forgive Peter's denial, could he forgive Judas's betrayal? All I can say is that I believe God is merciful & can forgive whoever he wants. It's not for me to speculate on any one person.

Judas , as the other apostles was saved before he lost it and born again, by the word of God, he could see the kingdom as others could and was as a sheep sent to the lost sheep. If he was sent to the LOST sheep that strongly implies that he was a found sheep. Jesus even said he had the Spirit of the father speaking in him and that he was of his own household in matthew 10. The trouble is that many have been taught the false eternal security doctrine that they haven't even looked at Matthew 10 and other places in this way.

 

[LoveofTruth]

My simple question put another way:

If Judas had eternal life and then lost it, in what sense did he ever have it?

Judas was born again by the word of God and had Christ in him ( jesus Christ is that eternal life) . to abode in Christ is to abide in the eternal life.

we see that jesus Christ himself is eternal life in this section.

"
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us" ( 1 John 1:1,2)

also we read

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." ( 1 John 3:15)

here we se that if a person has hatred in their heart they are a murderer and then if they did have eternal life in them that eternal life would no longer abide ( or remain) in them. This shows that eternal life is Christ in us

 

[LoveofTruth]

I am not so sure, because this would mean the entity Satan could snatch one from Christ's hand - which is categorically against what Christ said (not to mention it endows one with hopelessness concerning their salvation.)

Also, we have evidence that Judas repented for his sin - as in, he had a change of heart in truth. When Judas tried to return the money he got for selling out Christ, the pharisees were the ones who rejected it calling it blood money.

Then, somehow he killed himself AND disemboweled himself?

It sounds like, being such a high ranking member of Christ''s army, once he repented he was heavily assaulted by demons - psychologicallly, spiritually and physically.

In other words, Judas had a job to do that no man would ever want - to be the betrayer of the Christ. But, as Christ said even blasphemies can be forgiven, except against the Holy Spirit.


Remember, Peter directly denied Christ three times, then he repented immediately.


Even Judas' crime, I believe, can and likely is forgiven. Otherwise, all of us need to be worried about the Enemy''s ability to tempt us to the point where we lose our salvation - despite repentence.

No Judas was lost according to jesus and went to his own place and had his name blotted out of the book of the living and not written with the righteous. (only the righteous are in that book, it is not just a book of people alive. )

Jesus said that the other 11 hare saved or that none of them is lost ( before the cross except Judas. ) John 17

 

[Tree of Life]

What harm do you think that the doctrine of perseverance causes?

 

[SeventyOne]

I really don't know that we can say much for certain about Judas, given the conflicted & limited info presented in the Bible - let alone whether he was (ever) "saved." I don't find proof-texting very convincing.

I do wonder about Judas though. I think most Christians would agree he betrayed Jesus. I wonder if Judas wanted forgiveness? If Jesus could forgive Peter's denial, could he forgive Judas's betrayal? All I can say is that I believe God is merciful & can forgive whoever he wants. It's not for me to speculate on any one person.

You said

"I see I left a part out. "Blotted out of the book of the living" = dead, or no longer living. If you suddenly want to make this also the book of life (something completely different), you will need to prove it other than you saying so."

the verse in Psalms says that they were blotted out of the book of the living. But those in that book are the righteous as the verses show. So if a person was in that book they were written with the RIGHTEOUS", not the unrighteous. This shows that Judas was once righteous and in the book. To not come into thy righteousness, is different than the righteous in that book. To come into the righteousness is to come into the kingdom of God and heaven. The kingdom of God is righteousness joy and peace in the Holy Ghost, and only those who are saved in the book will come into that righteousness. Into a new place wherein dwells righteousness.

again you don't understand the text and miss many parts.

You also said,

"The words of Jesus that John shares was, "and one of you is a devil". Present tense. It was John's words which explain the end works of that devil in his ultimate betrayal. Quit twisting the text."

no John wrote by the Spirit of God not his own words as Paul did when Paul said the things he writes were the commandments of the Lord 1 Cor 14:37, John also wrote by the Spirit. So when John says this he spoke of Judas who should betray him. John was giving the Spirits interpretation of what Jesus mean when he spoke. The words "should betray him" are future tense. Jesus often spoke of things in prophetic as though they were. We see this in John 17 when Jesus ( before his death on the cross said,

"4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." ( John 17:4)

Yet Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet. He spoke prophetically as if it had happened. God told Abrahma similar about his seed etc.

But even if you don't see this Jesus was speaking of Judas after three years or so of ministry, near the end of his ministry. matthew shows Judas at the beginning of his ministry. Obviously Judas fell away by transgression from the place he was before. To say Judas by transgression "fell" in Acts sows he fell from something, And this is not referring to his ministry only, but he fell by transgression. He had abstained part of the ministry and was just as successful as others. One time when disciples came back from ministry Jesus told them not to rejoice that the devils are subject to them but that there names are written in the lambs book of life.

Funny thing about the book of John is that it's constructed differently than the other gospels. It's not really a chronological book, but rather a hodge-podge of events, the same writing style John uses in the book of Revelation. So, to hang your hat on it as a chronological account is suspect at best.

You can try to keep squeezing these passages into your own narrative about Judas all you want, but it will never suddenly make it true. In the end, you are still trying to use him to promote a gospel of works.

 

[tatteredsoul]

No Judas was lost according to jesus and went to his own place and had his name blotted out of the book of the living and not written with the righteous. (only the righteous are in that book, it is not just a book of people alive. )

Jesus said that the other 11 hare saved or that none of them is lost ( before the cross except Judas. ) John 17

Can you point me to a verse where Christ said Judas was lost?

 

[LoveofTruth]

What harm do you think that the doctrine of perseverance causes?

to cause those who turn the grace of God into lasciviousness and to cause some who have unbelief in their heart to think all is well. To cause those who are idolaters effeminate, drunkards, fornicators etc to think they will inherit the kingdom of God when paul says they are deceived if they think they will. read Jeremiah 23 as well showing that the false prophets tell those who sin that they are ok, and they strengthen the hands of evil doers. This false doctrine has always been a plague to Gods people from way back

"9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." ( 1 Cor 6:9,10 KJV)

those who are in these sins and think all is well are DECEIVED as the Spirit of God said through Paul.

"
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Can you point me to a verse where Christ said Judas was lost?

ok here are a few

"12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." ( John 17;12 KJV)

and

"
Mark 14:21
The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born."

and

"25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."

and

"28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." ( Psalms 69:28)

 

[faroukfarouk]

Judas is known in Scripture as the son of perdition, which seems strongly to indicate that he was never saved in the first place.

 

[SeventyOne]

Can you point me to a verse where Christ said Judas was lost?

He was always lost. He shared the same title as the antichrist, the man of sin, as the "son of perdition." John 17:12 and 2 Thes 2:3

 

[LoveofTruth]

Funny thing about the book of John is that it's constructed differently than the other gospels. It's not really a chronological book, but rather a hodge-podge of events, the same writing style John uses in the book of Revelation. So, to hang your hat on it as a chronological account is suspect at best.

You can try to keep squeezing these passages into your own narrative about Judas all you want, but it will never suddenly make it true. In the end, you are still trying to use him to promote a gospel of works.

No I do not promote a gospel of works that is a false assumption.

By grace through faith we are saved by believing the gospel of Christ 1 Cor 15;1-5. The works that believers do are by God working in us to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work working in us that which is well pleasing in his sight. If we don't have such works of God in us then we have no salvation. Show me your faith without God working in you and i will show you my faith by God working in me. As the body without the spirit is dead so a professing believer without the spirit of God is dead also.

And John wrote by the Spirit of God it is God you are attacking when you attack the scriptures he inspired. take heed you may be lost

 

[Tree of Life]

to cause those who turn the grace of God into lasciviousness and to cause some who have unbelief in their heart to think all is well. To cause those who are idolaters effeminate, drunkards, fornicators etc to think they will inherit the kingdom of God when paul says they are deceived if they think they will. read Jeremiah 23 as well showing that the false prophets tell those who sin that they are ok, and they strengthen the hands of evil doers. This false doctrine has always been a plague to Gods people from way back

I whole-heartedly embrace the doctrine of perseverance yet I would never teach that it's ok for Christians to continue in sin. Furthermore I would affirm that those who continue in unrepentant sin ought to seriously examine themselves and question their salvation. As would all who have historically taught and defended the doctrine of perseverance.

Perhaps you're rejecting a doctrine that you don't fully understand. Perhaps you're rejecting something that I (and other perseverance people) would also reject. Is that possible?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Judas is known in Scripture as the son of perdition, which seems strongly to indicate that he was never saved in the first place.

No it doesn't indicate this at all. All believers were once in darkness and wen a person commits sin they are of the devil. Jesus called the pharisees children of the devil etc.

 

[faroukfarouk]

No it doesn't indicate this at all. All believers were once in darkness and wen a person commits sin they are of the devil. Jesus called the pharisees children of the devil etc.

What makes you think the pharisees were believers? they generally didn't believe in the Lord Jesus. Or maybe I'm missing something and misunderstanding what you're saying.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I whole-heartedly embrace the doctrine of perseverance yet I would never teach that it's ok for Christians to continue in sin. Furthermore I would affirm that those who continue in unrepentant sin ought to seriously examine themselves and question their salvation. As would all who have historically taught and defended the doctrine of perseverance.

Perhaps you're rejecting a doctrine that you don't fully understand. Perhaps you're rejecting something that I (and other perseverance people) would also reject. Is that possible?

I could recite the false doctrine of calvinism and all the points very clearly but i don't believe most of them

by the way Judas is only one of the parts of scripture that defeat the eternal security crowd. there are many other sections and verses .

I also believe that God is able to keep us from falling but only as we abide in faith and continue in the faith grounded and settled and that we are not moved away from the hope of the gospel. We are ket by God is we do not cast off our first faith and then have damnation, or if we do not through the deceitfulness of sin harden our hearts and have an evil heart of unbelief to depart from the living God.

 

[faroukfarouk]

He was always lost. He shared the same title as the antichrist, the man of sin, as the "son of perdition." John 17:12 and 2 Thes 2:3

Yes, this is my understanding also.

 

[LoveofTruth]

What makes you think the pharisees were believers? they generally didn't believe in the Lord Jesus. Or maybe I'm missing something and misunderstanding what you're saying.

I never said the pharisees were believers. What i am pointing out is to call a person the son of perdition or a child of the devil, doesn't mean they were not saved or could not be saved. Judas was clearly saved before he fell and betrayed Jesus. He was a found sheep sent to the lost sheep. He once belonged to the father even as the other 11 before they even met jesus as John 17 and other places show