John 3:14-16 teaches that Christ died for everyone

[Hammster]

No need to wait. I never said what you are claiming here. You missed the context of what I said. Please review what I did say and note the context.

"How come Calvinists always insist that "world" always means just the elect, except in John 17:9? Why is that? "

Not sure what context would have changed this.

 

[Hammster]

Sure. It didn't violate your limited view of the scope of Christ's death for the sins of the whole world.

But in that verse (1 Jn 2:2), you insiste that "whole world" cannot mean everyone in humanity. Which is my point. You understand "world" according to your theology, not according to context. Though you do claim you consider context. But you don't.

I do consider the context. I understand that if He was the propitiation for the whole world, that would be universalism. Universalism is unorthodox. So another perfectly acceptable understanding of world is used.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"How come Calvinists always insist that "world" always means just the elect, except in John 17:9? Why is that? "

Not sure what context would have changed this.

It's not Jn 17:9 that is the "context" issue. It's all the verses that say or indicate that Christ died for the world.

 

[Hammster]

It's not Jn 17:9 that is the "context" issue. It's all the verses that say or indicate that Christ died for the world.

The context was your accusation that Calvinists say world always means elect except in this case. That been shown to be a false accusation.

 

[guuila]

Be educated.

1 John 2:2 properly understood: http://www.reformationtheology.com/2005/10/understanding_1_john_22_by_pas.php

 

[Jack Terrence]

You really don't think at the GWT judgment, that everyone will recognize that Christ's righteousness is superior to their own works-righteousness?

First, Jesus said that the goats will NOT recognize Him at the judgment, much less His righteousness. Christ will accuse them of negligence and they will say to Him, "When did we do neglect you?" So they will NOT recognize Christ at the GWT. Therefore, your theory that everyone will recognize Christ's righteousness at the judgment is proven false. They won't even recognize that they have sinned.

Second, Isaiah said that EVERY tongue shall say, "In the Lord I HAVE righteousness and strength." EVERY tongue confesses to POSSESS the Lord as his righteousness. Verse 4 indicates that "every tongue" is the Elect, and so their confession to POSSESS the Lord as their righteousness is about SALVATION.

Third, neither Isaiah nor Paul were speaking about the GWT. They were both speaking about this PRESENT age. What is your proof that they were speaking about the GWT?

So, you don't believe literally that "every knee shall bow", huh.

Isaiah and Paul were speaking about this PRESENT age. Show where the GWT is mentioned by them.

Yeah, I know the drill. Every verse that speaks of the whole of mankind really only applies to the "elect". Yeah, sure.

The Bible is a covenantal book written to the Elect alone. It's universalism concerns the Elect only. If the Bible belonged to all mankind you would have a point. But it does NOT belong to all mankind. The Bible belongs ONLY to those to whom it was written which is the Elect.

If an English teacher begins the school year by saying "Every student starts out with an A," she means every student under her tutelage and not every student in the whole school. This is how the universal language of the Bible is to be understood. It doesn't take a degree in rocket science to understand this.

Different passage, different context.

It is NOT a different context. Paul was quoting Isaiah. Isaiah said that EVERY tongue shall confess and say, "In the Lord I HAVE righteousenss and strength." Both were speaking about this PRESENT age.

The expressions "every knee shall bow" and "every tongue shall confess" is about the SALVATION of the Elect.

You have offered nothing but conjecture as a rebuttal. Proves your theories.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The context was your accusation that Calvinists say world always means elect except in this case. That been shown to be a false accusation.

I clarified. When "world" is used in reference to the scope for whom Christ died, it's ONLY "the elect", which is what I meant.

I have clarified, and your accusation is rendered false.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Be educated.

1 John 2:2 properly understood: Reformation Theology: Understanding 1 John 2:2 by Pastor John Samson

Thanks for such a clear demonstration of eisegesis. This may go down as a classic!

John couldn't have been speaking of "our nation" when he wrote "our sins". He was writing to believers, and he clearly meant believers' sins. Not the sins of the nation, or "died for our nation". Not a bit of context to support your eiesegesis.

And "whole world" isn't "children of God scattered abroad".

If John had meant what you present, he would have written exactly that.

Again, thanks for the demonstration.

 

[guuila]

Thanks for such a clear demonstration of eisegesis. This may go down as a classic!

Did you read the article?

 

[FreeGrace2]

First, Jesus said that the goats will NOT recognize Him at the judgment, much less His righteousness. Christ will accuse them of negligence and they will say to Him, "When did we do neglect you?" So they will NOT recognize Christ at the GWT. Therefore, your theory that everyone will recognize Christ's righteousness at the judgment is proven false. They won't even recognize that they have sinned.

Proving you wrong is going to be very easy.

Matt 7:21-23 says:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

This passage is a reference to those standing before the GWT. They very clearly DO recognize Jesus, because they call Him "Lord". But they rejected Him as Savior, by substituting His perfect work with their works.

 

[Hammster]

I clarified. When "world" is used in reference to the scope for whom Christ died, it's ONLY "the elect", which is what I meant.

I have clarified, and your accusation is rendered false.

Okay. You should be more clear in the future.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Okay.

I'm glad that you agree that your accusation was false.

You should be more clear in the future.

That works for all of us.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Proving you wrong is going to be very easy.

Matt 7:21-23 says:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

This passage is a reference to those standing before the GWT. They very clearly DO recognize Jesus, because they call Him "Lord". But they rejected Him as Savior, by substituting His perfect work with their works.

I can't believe you man! You will say anything to avoid the truth. Just because they call Him "Lord" does NOT mean that they actually will recognize Him as such. Jesus proves by their neglect that they will NOT recognize Him. They will say, "When did we SEE YOU naked....?"

Furthermore, Christ says NOTHING about their coming to recognize that "the LORD is righteousness." You said that they will recognize that the Lord righteousness and denounce their own works. This is pure conjecture! They won't even recognize their neglect of Him. There is not even the slightest hint that they will admit that they are sinners. They would have to admit that they are sinners before they could acknowledge Him as righteousness and denounce their own works.

You keep saying that your views are based on the Bible. Your views are NOT base on the Bible. They are nothing more than conjecture.

I asked you to show where Isaiah and Paul mention the GWT. They were both speaking about this PRESENT age. Every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess to POSSESS righteousness in the Lord. This is CLEARLY unto salvation. Therefore, by your logic ALL mankind will be saved.

You know that your suggestion that the gospel was preached to all mankind is intellectual suicide.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I can't believe you man!

Well, that's a new one. griff recently told me that "not one person on this forum understands" my view. So, in order to disbelieve me, that means that you do understand my view. You should let griff know.

You will say anything to avoid the truth.

Really? Giving you Scripture is "anyting to avoid the truth"?? For me, Scripture IS the truth.

Just because they call Him "Lord" does NOT mean that they actually will recognize Him as such.

If they didn't recognize Him as Lord, why did they address Him as such? You're not making much sense. They even did great works "in His name".

Jesus proves by their neglect that they will NOT recognize Him. They will say, "When did we SEE YOU naked....?"

Uh, how about staying in the text, please. Nothing about the naked in Matt 7:21-23. Please don't change the subject or divert attention away from a passage that refutes your view.

Furthermore, Christ says NOTHING about their coming to recognize that "the LORD is righteousness."

Wrong context. Please stay in Matt 7:21-23.

You said that they will recognize that the Lord righteousness and denounce their own works.

When did I say that? Please show me.

This is pure conjecture! They won't even recognize their neglect of Him. There is not even the slightest hint that they will admit that they are sinners. They would have to admit that they are sinners before they could acknowledge Him as righteousness and denounce their own works.

MATT 7:21-23 refutes you soundly. They are appealling to Him in order to get into the kingdom.

You keep saying that your views are based on the Bible. Your views are NOT base on the Bible. They are nothing more than conjecture.

Your opinion has been noted.

I asked you to show where Isaiah and Paul mention the GWT.

I never said either one mentioned the GWT. Why do you ask?

They were both speaking about this PRESENT age. Every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess to POSSESS righteousness in the Lord. This is CLEARLY unto salvation. Therefore, by your logic ALL mankind will be saved.

If you think that those before Christ at the GWT don't understand who He is, and why they are there, you really don't understand what the GWT is all about.

You know that your suggestion that the gospel was preached to all mankind is intellectual suicide.

Can you explain in intellectual terms how so? ie: so I can understand.

 

[Jack Terrence]

If they didn't recognize Him as Lord, why did they address Him as such? You're not making much sense. They even did great works "in His name".

No! They will make the false claim that they did great works in His name. If they will truly recognize Him as you say, then they will not speak that way. If they will truly know who He is, then they will say, "Lord, I have sinned and am worthy of death."

It is CLEAR that they will remain obstinate.

Uh, how about staying in the text, please. Nothing about the naked in Matt 7:21-23. Please don't change the subject or divert attention away from a passage that refutes your view.

It is YOU who is switching subjects. You brought up the GWT saying that all humans will confess Christ as "the Lord is righteousness." I responded specifically with the sheep and goat judgment in Matthew 25 which is the GWT. The sheep and goat judgment says NOTHING about them confessing Christ as "the Lord is righteousness." Now you bring up Matthew 7 out of no where. Matthew 7 is NOT even about the GWT.

Wrong context. Please stay in Matt 7:21-23.

I was in Matthew 25 all along which is the GWT. I specifically mentioned the sheep and goat judgment. Now you say that we have been talking about Matthew 7 which you know is not true. Your credibility is dwindling friend.

When did I say that? Please show me.

You said it in the form of a rhetorical question. You said:

You really don't think at the GWT judgment, that everyone will recognize that Christ's righteousness is superior to their own works-righteousness?

So, you don't believe literally that "every knee shall bow", huh.

But hey, I am glad that you are backing down on this now because the scripture no where says that at the judgment all humans will bow the knee to Christ and confess Him with the tongue.

For Isaiah it was about the salvation of the Elect. And Paul gives no indication whatsoever that he is applying differently, that is, eschatologically to the judgment.

MATT 7:21-23 refutes you soundly. They are appealling to Him in order to get into the kingdom.

Uh, the kingdom of heaven is the PRESENT gospel dispensation. They are trying to acquire salvation by their works. I can see that your eschatology is just as messed up as your soteriology.

I never said either one mentioned the GWT. Why do you ask?

I don't know how long I can continue this if you are not going to be honest about it.

I had said,

Paul's "every knee shall bow" statement is from Isaiah who said also that every tongue shall confess the Lord as His righteousness.

Then you replied:

You really don't think at the GWT judgment, that everyone will recognize that Christ's righteousness is superior to their own works-righteousness?

You CLEARLY associated Isaiah's and Paul's words with the the GWT. But again, I am glad that you are backing down on this now because there is no scripture to support it.

If you think that those before Christ at the GWT don't understand who He is, and why they are there, you really don't understand what the GWT is all about.

Jesus suggested that they will NOT understand. He will accuse them and they will say, and pardon my paraphrase, "What are you talking about?" Then they will be cast into the lake of fire.

Anyway, I am losing patience with you because you will not own up to things you have said. I think you know that you are losing the argument. You thought that you were going to come here and refute novices and it turns out that you are getting kicked around badly.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No! They will make the false claim that they did great works in His name.

Apparently you never actually read Matt 7:21-23, then. You should. Jesus doesn't call anyone a liar.

They did great works in His name without the authority to. They were, in fact, blaspheming His name. They were using His name in vain. Jesus never challenged their claim.

If they will truly recognize Him as you say, then they will not speak that way. If they will truly know who He is, then they will say, "Lord, I have sinned and am worthy of death."

They truly KNOW who He is when they stand before Him at the GWT. Why would you think they wouldn't? Just being there would be a HUGE hint.

It is CLEAR that they will remain obstinate.

Where do you see obstinancy in Matt 7:21-23?

It is YOU who is switching subjects. You brought up the GWT saying that all humans will confess Christ as "the Lord is righteousness."

No, you are misquoting me. I SAID "every knee will bow", which will surely occur at the GWT.

btw, CS Lewis once quipped, "every knee with bow to Christ, either as Savior, or as Judge". I like that.

I responded specifically with the sheep and goat judgment in Matthew 25 which is the GWT.

Well, you need to back up some to 7:21-23.

The sheep and goat judgment says NOTHING about them confessing Christ as "the Lord is righteousness." Now you bring up Matthew 7 out of no where. Matthew 7 is NOT even about the GWT.

Matt 7:21-23 was where I started.

I was in Matthew 25 all along which is the GWT. I specifically mentioned the sheep and goat judgment. Now you say that we have been talking about Matthew 7 which you know is not true. Your credibility is dwindling friend.

Ha, as if any of you ever considered that I had any anyway.

Just what do you think Matt 7:21-23 is about, if not at the GWT?

You said it in the form of a rhetorical question. You said:

But hey, I am glad that you are backing down on this now because the scripture no where says that at the judgment all humans will bow the knee to Christ and confess Him with the tongue.

For proper context, this is what I said:

You really don't think at the GWT judgment, that everyone will recognize that Christ's righteousness is superior to their own works-righteousness?
So, you don't believe literally that "every knee shall bow", huh.

I haven't backed down on anything. I really don't know where you get all that.

I don't know how long I can continue this if you are not going to be honest about it.

Anyway, I am losing patience with you because you will not own up to things you have said. I think you know that you are losing the argument.

What have you done to think that?

You thought that you were going to come here and refute novices and it turns out that you are getting kicked around badly.

First, are you reading my "thoughts", since you seem to have no problem telling me what they are? LOL

Second, what makes you think I thought there would be novices here? Novices don't get into debates. They know better. I fully expected the hard core here, those solidly entrenched in their theology.

As for who's been getting "kicked around badly", that would definitely depend upon from whose perspective.

But your opinion has been noted and filed.

And since you admit you're losing patience with me, you really shouldn't keep engaging. 1 Cor 13 defines love as kindness and patience. And we're commanded to love the brethren. To continue to engage would create a dilemma for you.

 

[JCFantasy23]

MOD HAT ON

There is a ridiculous amount of flaming going on in this thread. Please knock it off. You can disagree without personal insults.
MOD HAT OFF

 

[kw5kw]

I've been away for several years, I got disgusted with the flaming and name calling.

How can people recite John III:16 by heart and forget John III: 17 - 21 so completely?

 

[kw5kw]

Sorry for the double post

 

[Jack Terrence]

The op is nonsensical and incoherent.