John 3:14-16 teaches that Christ died for everyone

[FreeGrace2]

John 3:14-16
14As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Here, Jesus equated what Moses did in the desert with a bronze serpent on a pole to what He was going to do on a cross. So, we need some context in order to understand what He meant.

That context is found in Num 21:6-9 -
6The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7So the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded for the people. 8Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” 9And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

From this passage, it is clear that the bronze serpent, God's solution to the poison problem, was for EVERYONE who was bitten. It wasn't an issue for anyone not bitten. So we can excuse that group as being relevant.

All Calvinists agree that Christ died for the elect, so we are assurred that those not bitten aren't an issue in this comparison.

Also note that the bronze serpent was for ALL who were bitten and faced physical death. This corresponds to ALL of humanity, who also face certain spiritual death from birth, being born spiritually dead.

And what was God's solution for the "bite" problem? To look toward the pole. What was involved with that action? Belief that God's promise of physical healing would occur by simply looking toward the pole.

And Jesus equated "looking toward" the pole for the Jews in the desert to solve their "bite" problem with believing in His cross work for solving their sin problem.

The serpent was for ALL who were bitten and faced death, just as Christ is for ALL who have been "bitten", as it were, by Adam's sin and face eternal death.

Just as any bitten Jew didn't believe God's promise reported by Moses would die, so also any human who doesn't believe God's promise of eternal life also dies, eternally separated from Him, which is spiritual death.

Can Calvinism refute my view of this passage, and the points I've made?

 

[nobdysfool]

Can you post anything without calling out Calvinists?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

It is clear from the context that universal atonement is not taught in the Gospel of John.

John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

John 17:2 “as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

John 17:9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 “And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 “As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

John 10:26 “But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

John 5:21 “For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

John 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

John 6:47 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

John 15:16 “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.


Jesus laid His life down for the sheep, not the non-believing goats, wolves, children of the devil. This is what the Bible tells us, contrary to your claims.

Even in the verse you posted, there are limits in efficacy to "whoever believes". What you suggest though is that Christ also laid His life down for non-believers in Hell which places the entire efficacy of the atonement squarely upon man, because it had no effect for those in Hell, no power to redeem, nothing for them. If you cannot see how man centered that theology is, how it limits the power of the atonement, well, there is little I could say to sway you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Can you post anything without calling out Calvinists?

As in calling out Calvinism's errors?

Did you know that I posted this thread in the "debate a Calvinist" subforum? Do you know what "debate" means?

If you want to think that debating a Calvinist is "calling them out", ok.

I asked a simple question. Can any Calvinist refute my points regarding Jn 3:14-16.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is clear from the context that universal atonement is not taught in the Gospel of John.

On the contrary.

As for "context", you completely ignored the OP, which is its own context, where Jesus said "just as Moses..." and then equated what Moses did with a bronze serpent with what He was going to do on the cross.

And then you brought up your so-called "context", which begins 3 chapters later.

John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

John 17:2 “as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

John 17:9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 “And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 “As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

John 10:26 “But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

John 5:21 “For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

John 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

John 6:47 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

John 15:16 “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Interesting that you cite 6:44 and ignore v.45, in which Jesus explains WHO the Father draws; those who have listened and learned from the Father.

1:12 and 3:3 have nothing to do with the context of 3:14-16, other than "sharing" the same chapter #.

Jesus laid His life down for the sheep, not the non-believing goats, wolves, children of the devil. This is what the Bible tells us, contrary to your claims.

In fact, if one reads the chapter carefully, there is no mention of "goats" anywhere in the chapter, and Jesus NEVER refers to the unbelieving Jews as anything other than "not MY sheep". He NEVER called them goats, wolves, etc.

So, when he said that He would lay down His life for THE sheep, He was referring to the human race.

You would have a point but ONLY IF Jesus had said that He would lay down His life for HIS sheep. But He didn't. So you don't have a point.

Even in the verse you posted, there are limits in efficacy to "whoever believes".

Wrong!! The only "limit" to efficacy is those who either don't look or don't believe. There are NO LIMITS on who can look or believe, which is my whole point in the OP, and you have ignored it completely.

What you suggest though is that Christ also laid His life down for non-believers in Hell which places the entire efficacy of the atonement squarely upon man, because it had no effect for those in Hell, no power to redeem, nothing for them.

You keep ignoring the OP, because you can't refute any of it.

And your conclusion of what I am "suggesting" is way off base, because the efficacy of the atonement was accomplished whether one looks/believes or not. But you guys don't understand that at all.

By His death, Christ actually purchased eternal life for everyone, and gives that gift freely to those who believe. Can you refute this statement?

Here are some verses to ponder, if you think you can:
Heb 2:9 SAYS He died for all.
Heb 9:12 SAYS He obtained (purchased) eternal redemption, so obviously for all
Jn 6:40 SAYS that God promises (His will) eternal life for those who believe.
1 Cor 1:21 SAYS that God is well pleased to save those who believe.

If you cannot see how man centered that theology is, how it limits the power of the atonement, well, there is little I could say to sway you.

See above, because you still have no clue what I'm saying. You need to actually listen to what I'm saying, before you keep making the mistake of your faulty conclusions about my view.

So, since you've posted, could you this time actually deal with the OP and refute it if you can. Your post here only ignored and dodged it completely.

 

[Don Maurer]

I really should not get involved with this guy. I really do not think he is here for a polite discussion. Just about his every sentence drips with venom.

On the contrary.

As for "context", you completely ignored the OP, which is its own context, where Jesus said "just as Moses..." and then equated what Moses did with a bronze serpent with what He was going to do on the cross.

Your application goes way beyond the text. The text draws an analogy between the serpent being lifted up and Christ being lifted up, nothing more.

Interesting that you cite 6:44 and ignore v.45, in which Jesus explains WHO the Father draws; those who have listened and learned from the Father.

Its interesting that you cite verse 45 and ignore verse 44. Not only that, you have verse 45 wrong too. In verse 44 the statement, "no man can come to me" is so inescapable. In verse 45 I think you are implying that God draws the whole human race? Your reading the word "all" all wrong. Your reading it as if it is the entire human race.
Verse 45 says....
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.
Verse 45 claims that "all" have been taught of God. The question is what group does the "all" refer too? What Group did God teach and speak to? The anticedent of the word "all" would be found at the end of verse 44.
44 ............and I will raise him up in the last day.
The "him" who is raised "up in the last day" can be none other then the saved. (see verse 40 for the same phrase with reference to believers). Verse 44 is then clear that all those whom the Father draws, that whole group is raised up on the last day as believers. To support this idea, the OT is quoted that this group (the believers) is taught of God and spoken to by God.

Both verse 44 and verse 45 demonstrate a particular individual drawing and redemption in that context.

In fact, if one reads the chapter carefully, there is no mention of "goats" anywhere in the chapter, and Jesus NEVER refers to the unbelieving Jews as anything other than "not MY sheep". He NEVER called them goats, wolves, etc.

That Jesus calls them "my sheep" and speaks of some unbelieving Jews as "not my sheep" is the whole point. So then, he is not dieing for those who are "not my sheep"

So, when he said that He would lay down His life for THE sheep, He was referring to the human race.
And what evidence can you present to prove that his sheep are the human race? Prove it!

Are you now a unversalist? Does all mankind follow Christ and hear his voice?

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 When he hath put forth all his own, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

You would have a point but ONLY IF Jesus had said that He would lay down His life for HIS sheep. But He didn't. So you don't have a point.

So your concerned not about what the texts does say, only the fact that the text does not have a certain wording? And this demonstrates your point?

Wrong!! The only "limit" to efficacy is those who either don't look or don't believe. There are NO LIMITS on who can look or believe, which is my whole point in the OP, and you have ignored it completely.[/QUOTE

I would agree that there is "NO LIMITS" to the value and efficacy of Christs shed blood. In fact each and every person that he died for, he saves to the uttermost. His shed blood is so powerful, it never fails! Where in scripture do you see such great limits to the value of the blood of Christ that it is such a huge failure? Is mans will so powerful that it overrules the very value and efficacy of the blood of Christ? If it was that powerful, then no one would ever get saved for we were all rebels.

You keep ignoring the OP, because you can't refute any of it.

I know, dontcha hate those stupid Calvinists. When you beat this drum so continually "You ignored... you cannot refute...." When he does this, it looks like you only want to be nasty. Is that all your here for, to be abusive and nasty?

And your conclusion of what I am "suggesting" is way off base, because the efficacy of the atonement was accomplished whether one looks/believes or not. But you guys don't understand that at all.

The atonement is certainly efficacious, ans supremely efficacious so that it never fails. Concerning faith, I am glad that faith is a part of the atonement. So then, it is supremely efficacious.

By His death, Christ actually purchased eternal life for everyone, and gives that gift freely to those who believe. Can you refute this statement?

Piece a cake. Christ shed blood is not some possibility that maybe it could be theoretically happen that someone could be saved if they believe. Oh no, it is far far more powerful than that. It unfailingly saves everyone under the blood. The book of Hebrews is clear on this one.

Here are some verses to ponder, if you think you can:

I am amazed at how nastily presumptive you are. "if you think you can:" Really, you want to be that nasty? Why bother coming here. Do you really think all the nastiness adds to how convincing you are?

Maybe its just your tradition to be as nasty as possible to Calvinists. Would you talk like that to anyone else? Tell my honestly, would you? I know you can sit safe behind your computer screen and talk like that, but would you speak like that if we sat face to face? Certainly your not trying to convince by such talk, so what purpose could it serve except to insult?

Heb 2:9 SAYS He died for all.
Heb 9:12 SAYS He obtained (purchased) eternal redemption, so obviously for all
Jn 6:40 SAYS that God promises (His will) eternal life for those who believe.
1 Cor 1:21 SAYS that God is well pleased to save those who believe.

I am not sure which one to pick. Hebrews 2 uses the word "all" "every." The use of the term "pas" frequently speaks of a group of people. In verse 10 we see the group the term speaks of... Christs tastes death as the author and finisher of the faith of all those that verse 10 calls "many sons to glory."

Hebrews 9:12 does not speak of all mankind. In fact by verse 28 he is going to say....
28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

See above, because you still have no clue what I'm saying. You need to actually listen to what I'm saying, before you keep making the mistake of your faulty conclusions about my view.

So, since you've posted, could you this time actually deal with the OP and refute it if you can. Your post here only ignored and dodged it completely.

Do you leave spittle on the screen when you type words like this?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I really should not get involved with this guy.

Yes, I agree. You should not. I was surprised that you did bother to respond.

I really do not think he is here for a polite discussion.

So, who set you up as reader of others' minds? You?

Just about his every sentence drips with venom.

Thank you for your opinion. But, if that were true, why can't you actually show me any post with "venom"?

Your application goes way beyond the text. The text draws an analogy between the serpent being lifted up and Christ being lifted up, nothing more.

Oh, so we can just ignore the context that Jesus BROUGHT UP in His analogy? Well, that's convenient for Calvinists.

Its interesting that you cite verse 45 and ignore verse 44.

Thanks for the opportunity to correct you again. I brought up v.45 because YOU ignored v.44. So I didn't ignore it, I pointed out v.45 explains v.44.

Not only that, you have verse 45 wrong too. In verse 44 the statement, "no man can come to me" is so inescapable. In verse 45 I think you are implying that God draws the whole human race?

Thank you for the opportunity to correcrt you again. No, that isn't my implication at all. I pointed out that those "drawn by the Father", which I DID acknowledge in my post, is explained by Jesus in the next verse; those who have listened and learned from the Father. It's real clear.

Your reading the word "all" all wrong. Your reading it as if it is the entire human race.
Verse 45 says....
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.
Verse 45 claims that "all" have been taught of God. The question is what group does the "all" refer too? What Group did God teach and speak to? The anticedent of the word "all" would be found at the end of verse 44.

Actually, you are wrong again. We know who the "all" are from Rom 1:19-20, where God HAS revealed His divine power to everyone, and has made it clear to them, so that no one has any excuse for not honoring Him as God and being thankful to Him. So the "all" does refer to the human race.

That Jesus calls them "my sheep" and speaks of some unbelieving Jews as "not my sheep" is the whole point. So then, he is not dieing for those who are "not my sheep"

Wow, you still miss the whole point. The unbelieving Jews He spoke to were told they were not "MY sheep". Jesus didn't say they weren't sheep, which is what you are trying to insinuate.

So, when he said that He would lay down His life for THE sheep, He was referring to the human race.
And what evidence can you present to prove that his sheep are the human race? Prove it!

I did. He told the unbelieving Jews that they weren't "HIS" sheep. He didn't say that they weren't sheep. That is a gross assumption from you.

Are you now a unversalist? Does all mankind follow Christ and hear his voice?

No, and no. Only believers will be saved. Is that clear? And no, not all mankind follows Christ. And neither v.44 nor v.45 says that. So why you even ask this question is irrelevant.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 When he hath put forth all his own, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

Right. Those are "HIS" sheep, not "THE" sheep.

So your concerned not about what the texts does say, only the fact that the text does not have a certain wording? And this demonstrates your point?

Kinda strange comment given I said this:
"You would have a point but ONLY IF Jesus had said that He would lay down His life for HIS sheep. But He didn't. So you don't have a point."
He SAID He would lay down His life for THE sheep, NOT HIS sheep. You seem to keep missing that.

Wrong!! The only "limit" to efficacy is those who either don't look or don't believe. There are NO LIMITS on who can look or believe, which is my whole point in the OP, and you have ignored it completely.

I would agree that there is "NO LIMITS" to the value and efficacy of Christs shed blood. In fact each and every person that he died for, he saves to the uttermost. His shed blood is so powerful, it never fails! Where in scripture do you see such great limits to the value of the blood of Christ that it is such a huge failure?

There is no failure on Christ's part. You just don't understand. He actually obtained "eternal redemption" meaning He actually purchased eternal life, per Heb 9:12. And back in 2:9, it SAYS clearly that He died for all, not ONLY for some, as you would spin it.

Is mans will so powerful that it overrules the very value and efficacy of the blood of Christ? If it was that powerful, then no one would ever get saved for we were all rebels.

Why do you bring up "man's will", which has no relevance to this discussion.

I know, dontcha hate those stupid Calvinists.

Hey, stop trying to put words in my mouth.

When you beat this drum so continually "You ignored... you cannot refute...."

Because you haven't, because you can't. What's wrong with making the point?

When he does this, it looks like you only want to be nasty. Is that all your here for, to be abusive and nasty?

Well, obviously you have taken it that way, but there was no reason at all for doing so. Pointing out facts shouldn't cause such defensive reactions.

The atonement is certainly efficacious, ans supremely efficacious so that it never fails.

I agree. All men's sins were paid for. Eternal life was purchased for everyone. How can that be called "in-efficacious"? But, what you guys keep doing is ignore what follows; man must believe in order to get the gift. So I'm NOT a universalist.

Christ shed blood is not some possibility that maybe it could be theoretically happen that someone could be saved if they believe. Oh no, it is far far more powerful than that. It unfailingly saves everyone under the blood. The book of Hebrews is clear on this one.

No, we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. You need a primer on Eph 2:8.

Christ's shed blood purchased/bought/agarazo eternal redemption (eternal life) for everyone, but only believers receive it, by faith. Jn 1:12, Gal 3:26.

I am amazed at how nastily presumptive you are. "if you think you can:" Really, you want to be that nasty?

Apparently you aren't aware of a challenge. Do you react to all challenges as "nastily presumptive"?

Why bother coming here.

To debate Calvinists. Which this subforum is dedicated to. Why do you have to ask?

Do you really think all the nastiness adds to how convincing you are?

There are forum rules against flaming and harrassment. If I have violated any rules, you can report me. But also know that the mods decide whether what you may point out as "nastiness" may not be.

Maybe its just your tradition to be as nasty as possible to Calvinists.

My posts have been very straightforward to everyone I post to, including hammster, one of the mods. If I'm "so nasty", why hasn't he done anything about it? My posts to him are no more direct than my posts to you or anyone else.

Would you talk like that to anyone else? Tell my honestly, would you?

See above for clear evidence that I have and do.

I know you can sit safe behind your computer screen and talk like that, but would you speak like that if we sat face to face?

I would have no problem. Being direct and to the point is not being "nasty", though it appears you think so.

Certainly your not trying to convince by such talk, so what purpose could it serve except to insult?

Since I'm not "nasty", and you just take it very personally, your question is irrelevant.

I am not sure which one to pick. Hebrews 2 uses the word "all" "every." The use of the term "pas" frequently speaks of a group of people. In verse 10 we see the group the term speaks of... Christs tastes death as the author and finisher of the faith of all those that verse 10 calls "many sons to glory."

You take a huge leap to force "many sons" to be the reference of the "all" in Heb 2:9. In fact, the context from v.5-8 sets up the comparison between mankind being put in charge over ALL creation (not some), and Jesus dying for ALL, not some, as you spin it.

Hebrews 9:12 does not speak of all mankind. In fact by verse 28 he is going to say....
28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

So? Paul used "many" to refer to the entire human race in Rom 5:15.

Do you leave spittle on the screen when you type words like this?

What a nasty comment.

Oh, btw, you still ignored my points about Jn 3:14-16. Was that intentional? What you initially gave as "context" wasn't even close.

I know that because Jesus said this at the beginning of v.14, "Just as..." and then set up the analogy. He wasn't referring to any sheep, or goats. Just equating looking for physical deliverance with believing for spiritual deliverance, and don't ignore the FACT that all who had been bitten and NEEDED physical deliverance (sozo) IS comparable with all who have NEED for spiritual deliverance )sozo).

You have not refuted the OP.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

where Jesus said "just as Moses..." and then equated what Moses did with a bronze serpent with what He was going to do on the cross.

Let's see, Moses literally lifted a serpent, no? So how are we gonna literally lift the Son of Man up? No Calvinist objects to preaching the cross to everyone.

And then you brought up your so-called "context", which begins 3 chapters later.

Evidently you seem unaware of the interpretive method of interpreting Scripture with Scripture of reading sentences in the context of paragraphs, of paragraphs in the context of chapters, of chapter in the context of other chapters of books with other books, recognizing the "organic" unity of Scripture.

In fact, if one reads the chapter carefully, there is no mention of "goats" anywhere in the chapter, and Jesus NEVER refers to the unbelieving Jews as anything other than "not MY sheep". He NEVER called them goats, wolves, etc.

Jesus denounced the cities where he performed most of his miracles because of their unbelief. John the Baptist called the Pharisees "vipers". And in the Gospels we read about Jesus' "Parable of the Sheep and Goats".

So, when he said that He would lay down His life for THE sheep, He was referring to the human race.

If you could interpret your way out of wet paper bag...

You would have a point but ONLY IF Jesus had said that He would lay down His life for HIS sheep. But He didn't. So you don't have a point.

Obviously you glossed over John 10:26 “But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep..." So He did separate those who do not believe from HIS sheep. So not only do I have a point, but I just made you look bad simply quoting Scripture, but then you put yourself into the position to begin with, not me.

Wrong!! The only "limit" to efficacy is those who either don't look or don't believe. There are NO LIMITS on who can look or believe, which is my whole point in the OP, and you have ignored it completely.

Your theology LIMITS the power of the cross, in fact, according to YOUR theology, NOTHING was accomplished, absolutely NOTHING finished on the cross, only opportunity for sovereign man to exercise DEAD faith....

You keep ignoring the OP, because you can't refute any of it.

Contrary to your claim, I have not, and am not ignoring. There is no need for me to refute, because SCRIPTURE SOUNDLY REFUTES your eisegesis.

And your conclusion of what I am "suggesting" is way off base, because the efficacy of the atonement was accomplished whether one looks/believes or not. But you guys don't understand that at all.

It's not our fault you do not understand the logical conclusions of your own theology. Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant to point, just points to inconsistency.

By His death, Christ actually purchased eternal life for everyone, and gives that gift freely to those who believe. Can you refute this statement?

Why yes I can, what you propose is not a substitutional atonement, nor do you propose a satisfaction of the wrath of God which every sinner deserves according to Scripture. Not for one second have you shifted the efficacy away from the sovereign man of your view. Further, you assume a sinner dead in trespasses and sins, has it within themselves to please God. When according to Scripture FAITH IS A GIFT, and WITHOUT FAITH IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD.

So, since you've posted, could you this time actually deal with the OP and refute it if you can. Your post here only ignored and dodged it completely.

You've been served, dealt with, and refuted, you're welcome.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

In the verse John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 “As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."

Jesus is referring to believing Jews, and the "other sheep" he is referring to is believing Gentiles. "Sheep" are believers, non-believers are not sheep, those whose father is the devil (JN 8:44), are not under the care of the Good Shepherd. To say the "other sheep" are non-believers, is to say they are also under the care of the Good Shepherd, and unwittingly equates the Good Shepherd with the devil. Further if "sheep" refers to believing and non-believing Jews, this unwittingly excludes Gentiles. Baaaaaad baaaaaaad theology.

 

[Hammster]

John 3:14-16
14As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Here, Jesus equated what Moses did in the desert with a bronze serpent on a pole to what He was going to do on a cross. So, we need some context in order to understand what He meant.

That context is found in Num 21:6-9 -
6The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7So the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded for the people. 8Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” 9And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

From this passage, it is clear that the bronze serpent, God's solution to the poison problem, was for EVERYONE who was bitten. It wasn't an issue for anyone not bitten. So we can excuse that group as being relevant.

All Calvinists agree that Christ died for the elect, so we are assurred that those not bitten aren't an issue in this comparison.

Also note that the bronze serpent was for ALL who were bitten and faced physical death. This corresponds to ALL of humanity, who also face certain spiritual death from birth, being born spiritually dead.

And what was God's solution for the "bite" problem? To look toward the pole. What was involved with that action? Belief that God's promise of physical healing would occur by simply looking toward the pole.

And Jesus equated "looking toward" the pole for the Jews in the desert to solve their "bite" problem with believing in His cross work for solving their sin problem.

The serpent was for ALL who were bitten and faced death, just as Christ is for ALL who have been "bitten", as it were, by Adam's sin and face eternal death.

Just as any bitten Jew didn't believe God's promise reported by Moses would die, so also any human who doesn't believe God's promise of eternal life also dies, eternally separated from Him, which is spiritual death.

Can Calvinism refute my view of this passage, and the points I've made?

What about those who died? What benefit was the serpent?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's see, Moses literally lifted a serpent, no? So how are we gonna literally lift the Son of Man up? No Calvinist objects to preaching the cross to everyone.

Surely you understand Jesus was making a comparative analogy, right? So, no Jesus wasn't saying anything about "us" lifting up Jesus.

Actually there are a number of Calvinists who DO object to preaching to everyone, since they know that the gospel is only for the elect.

Evidently you seem unaware of the interpretive method of interpreting Scripture with Scripture of reading sentences in the context of paragraphs, of paragraphs in the context of chapters, of chapter in the context of other chapters of books with other books, recognizing the "organic" unity of Scripture.

Rather, it appears you seem unaware of what "context" means. The context for Jn 3:16 begins in v.14, NOT ch 6, 10, etc.

[/QUOTE]Jesus denounced the cities where he performed most of his miracles because of their unbelief. John the Baptist called the Pharisees "vipers". And in the Gospels we read about Jesus' "Parable of the Sheep and Goats". [/QUOTE]
What does any of this have to do with my comment? There is no connection.

If you could interpret your way out of wet paper bag...

Well, another statement that had no relevance to what I said, which was this:

So, when he said that He would lay down His life for THE sheep, He was referring to the human race.

Why do you dodge the FACT that Jesus said He would lay down His life for THE sheep, and then tell the unbelieving Jews they were not HIS sheep? Jesus made no mention of them being anything other than not HIS sheep. He said nothing about them being other than sheep.

Obviously you glossed over John 10:26 “But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep..." So He did separate those who do not believe from HIS sheep.

Of course I didn't miss it. That's the point. He didn't say he would lay down His life for HIS sheep, which seems to be the way you Calvinists keep reading it. But it doesn't say what you want it to say.

So not only do I have a point, but I just made you look bad simply quoting Scripture, but then you put yourself into the position to begin with, not me.

Again, your comment completely misses my point, which makes you look very bad, not me. Here it is:

You would have a point but ONLY IF Jesus had said that He would lay down His life for HIS sheep. But He didn't. So you don't have a point.

Maybe you just didn't understand what I said. Is that it?

Your theology LIMITS the power of the cross, in fact, according to YOUR theology, NOTHING was accomplished, absolutely NOTHING finished on the cross, only opportunity for sovereign man to exercise DEAD faith....

You know, I really do enjoy the opportunity to correct the errors of Calvinists, so thanks for the opportunity here.

Here is what I believe about the power of the cross, and then let's compare that with the "stuff" you just said about "my view".

Jesus' death on the cross paid the entire sin debt for all of humanity (Heb 2:9), not just some of humanity, as Calvinism claims. In addition, His death purchased eternal redemption (Heb 9:12) or eternal life, for all of humanity, not just some of humanity, as Calvinism claims. Jesus gives this precious gift of eternal life to whosoever believes in Him for it (Jn 3:16, 6:40, 47, Acts 16:31). Now, who really limits the power of the cross?

Once again, a Calvinist has misrepresented my view, and I've repeated it often enough.

Contrary to your claim, I have not, and am not ignoring. There is no need for me to refute, because SCRIPTURE SOUNDLY REFUTES your eisegesis.

OK, a claim by you. Where is the proof? All I see is a claim by you.

It's not our fault you do not understand the logical conclusions of your own theology.

Yes, it is your fault for not understanding my theology. What you call a "logical conclusion" of my theology isn't, and I have always explained WHY it isn't. So you have no excuse for making the same mistake over and over.

Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant to point, just points to inconsistency.

OK, show me my inconsistencies, please. Provide a quote, a post # or evidence that my view is inconsistent. I promise I will show that you simply have misrepresented my view or failed to understand it.

Why yes I can, what you propose is not a substitutional atonement, nor do you propose a satisfaction of the wrath of God which every sinner deserves according to Scripture.

Amazing! In fact, my theology IS a substitutional atonement, but for everyone, not just some, as your theology claims. So you are wrong on that. And 1 Jn 2:2 IS the satisfaction of the wrath of God for the sins of the world. You probably think (erroneously) that people go to hell for their sins. Sure, if Christ had not died for them. But since He did, they go there for not possessing eternal life. Rev 20:15. btw, in order to live with God in eternity, one must be qualified to. And one is qualified by possessing eternal life. Here is Col 1:12 -
giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

Now, tell me how the Father has qualified us to share in the inheritance, if not by giving eternal life.

Not for one second have you shifted the efficacy away from the sovereign man of your view.

There is no "sovereign man" in my view. Again, you misunderstand it. All man can do in God's plan for salvation is accept it. Man neither created it, or requested it. It ALL came from God. And God's plan is to give eternal life to those who believe (1 Cor 1:21).

Further, you assume a sinner dead in trespasses and sins, has it within themselves to please God.

You cannot show me any verse that says that sinners can't please God. How can a sinner please God? By faith, Heb 11:6. Christ came to save sinners, per 1 Tim 1:15
It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

Did you notice "how many" sinners He came to save? Does it say "some sinnes"? No. does it say "only the elect sinners"? No. It says "sinners". And guess what. Rom 3:23 says the entire human race are sinners. Who He came to save, by purchasing eternal life for each of them and giving it to those who believe.

When according to Scripture FAITH IS A GIFT, and WITHOUT FAITH IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD.

You are wrong again. Eph 2:8 doesn't say faith is a gift. You have mistranslated the verse. The "it" doesn't refer to faith, but to salvation, which is the gift.

The problem with Calvinism is that it puts faith into the "gift bag" along with eternal life. So the gift that God gives to the elect is really 2 gifts in 1 bag. But there is no Scripture that teaches that.

You've been served, dealt with, and refuted, you're welcome.

And you are quite funny.

But you continue to dodge the issue of Jn 3:14. And the reason is obvious.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In the verse John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 “As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."

Jesus is referring to believing Jews, and the "other sheep" he is referring to is believing Gentiles. "Sheep" are believers, non-believers are not sheep, those whose father is the devil (JN 8:44), are not under the care of the Good Shepherd.

Slick attempt to conflate 2 separate contexts by citing Jn 8:44 in a passage that doesn't even mention sheep at all. No dice. No deal.

You haven't proven that "the sheep" in Jn 10 are only the elect. In fact, when Jesus told the unbelieving Jews that they weren't HIS sheep, He wasn't saying they weren't "sheep", but that they weren't HIS sheep. But you continue to ignore, dodge, or just fail to understand the issue.

To say the "other sheep" are non-believers, is to say they are also under the care of the Good Shepherd, and unwittingly equates the Good Shepherd with the devil. Further if "sheep" refers to believing and non-believing Jews, this unwittingly excludes Gentiles. Baaaaaad baaaaaaad theology.

I have never said the "other sheep" or non-believers. In fact, Jesus was referring to believing Gentiles in Jn 10:16. So you are wrong AGAIN!!

And I never said that "sheep" refers to believing and non-believing Jews either. So you are WRONG AGAIN!!! Thanks for so many opportunities for correcting Calvinists.

I said "THE sheep" refers to the entire human race. Why and how could you miss that?

Consider Jn 10:7,9
7So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

9“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

What is Jesus saying here? Being the "door of the sheep" is another way of saying John 14:6, "I am the way, truth and life. No one comes to the Father but through Me. Anyone who wants to come to the Father must do it through Jesus, and 10:7 says basically the same thing.

v.9 repeats that Jesus is the "door" of the sheep, and if anyone (any sheep) enters through Me, he will be saved.

Please note that the sheep who don't enter through the door (through Jesus) won't be saved. These verses also give evidence that "sheep" simply refers to the entire human race, for which He would lay down His life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What about those who died? What benefit was the serpent?

I always get this kind of completely irrelevant questions from Calvinists. I'll tell you "what" about those who died. They died. That's what. And So what?

They died because God was disciplining the Jews. Why? Num 21:4,5
4Then they set out from Mount Hor by the way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the people became impatient because of the journey. 5The people spoke against God and Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this miserable food.”

So, what did God do? v.6,7 tell us-
6The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7So the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded for the people.

So what did the people do because of the deaths from the bite from the serpent? v.8-9 tell us -
8Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” 9And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

So your question was irrelevant and distracting (smokescreen). They died before the serpent (type of Christ) was raised on a pole. They are totally irrelevant to the point Jesus was making.

And you question ignores the OP completely. As if you either didn't understand any of it, or you wanted to dodge it completely. Your call.

Can you show me how anything in the OP is in error? And don't waste your time with a simple "yes", if you think you can. Actually do it. Thanks.

 

[Stone Butterfly]

You're likely to suffer less stress if you post this in one of the Theology forums.
This particular forum is not accommodating to such things. Nor is it a forum wherein you are likely not to be attacked.

Of course Jesus saved everyone otherwise he was an abject failure on the cross. He said he did not come to save the righteous but the lost.
This scripture also supports his having taken the sins of the world upon himself on the cross. (Sins of the world! Not just a select few that God created so that only a few could be saved. That would be Satanic not Righteous)

1Timothy 4:10 (NKJV) For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach,[a] because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
And all of John chapter 16.

Be prepared. This thread is going to get ugly. Just remember, stay in the light and peace of Christ and you shall overcome all adversaries.

John 3:14-16
14As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Here, Jesus equated what Moses did in the desert with a bronze serpent on a pole to what He was going to do on a cross. So, we need some context in order to understand what He meant.

That context is found in Num 21:6-9 -
6The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7So the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded for the people. 8Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” 9And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

From this passage, it is clear that the bronze serpent, God's solution to the poison problem, was for EVERYONE who was bitten. It wasn't an issue for anyone not bitten. So we can excuse that group as being relevant.

All Calvinists agree that Christ died for the elect, so we are assurred that those not bitten aren't an issue in this comparison.

Also note that the bronze serpent was for ALL who were bitten and faced physical death. This corresponds to ALL of humanity, who also face certain spiritual death from birth, being born spiritually dead.

And what was God's solution for the "bite" problem? To look toward the pole. What was involved with that action? Belief that God's promise of physical healing would occur by simply looking toward the pole.

And Jesus equated "looking toward" the pole for the Jews in the desert to solve their "bite" problem with believing in His cross work for solving their sin problem.

The serpent was for ALL who were bitten and faced death, just as Christ is for ALL who have been "bitten", as it were, by Adam's sin and face eternal death.

Just as any bitten Jew didn't believe God's promise reported by Moses would die, so also any human who doesn't believe God's promise of eternal life also dies, eternally separated from Him, which is spiritual death.

Can Calvinism refute my view of this passage, and the points I've made?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You're likely to suffer less stress if you post this in one of the Theology forums.

Hi Stone Butterfly, and thanks for the hint, but I'm not under any stress. In fact, it's been rather fun having such an opportunity to correct all the errors of Calvinists when they keep misrepresenting my view, and then attacking their straw man creation instead of my view. And I chose the "debate a Calvinist" subforum specifically to debate them.

This particular forum is not accommodating to such things. Nor is it a forum wherein you are likely not to be attacked.

I'm not afraid of being attacked. In fact, it started when I first posted!! But again, it's been real fun having the opportunity to correct all the errors made by Calvinists who keep misrepresenting my view and attacking what isn't my view at all.

Of course Jesus saved everyone otherwise he was an abject failure on the cross. He said he did not come to save the righteous but the lost.

If you believe that He saved everyone, then you are a universalist. Yet, Scripture teaches no such thing. He certainly did die for everyone, but He saves ONLY those who believe in Him for eternal life. There is a big difference.

And yes, He did say He came to save the lost. That's what He came to do, by paying their sin debt and purchasing eternal life for everyone. But the only ones who get the free gift are those who believe.

Be prepared. This thread is going to get ugly. Just remember, stay in the light and peace of Christ and you shall overcome all adversaries.

Thanks again for the warning.

 

[Hammster]

John 3:14-16
14As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Here, Jesus equated what Moses did in the desert with a bronze serpent on a pole to what He was going to do on a cross. So, we need some context in order to understand what He meant.

That context is found in Num 21:6-9 -
6The LORD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7So the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded for the people. 8Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” 9And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

From this passage, it is clear that the bronze serpent, God's solution to the poison problem, was for EVERYONE who was bitten. It wasn't an issue for anyone not bitten. So we can excuse that group as being relevant.

All Calvinists agree that Christ died for the elect, so we are assurred that those not bitten aren't an issue in this comparison.

Also note that the bronze serpent was for ALL who were bitten and faced physical death. This corresponds to ALL of humanity, who also face certain spiritual death from birth, being born spiritually dead.

And what was God's solution for the "bite" problem? To look toward the pole. What was involved with that action? Belief that God's promise of physical healing would occur by simply looking toward the pole.

And Jesus equated "looking toward" the pole for the Jews in the desert to solve their "bite" problem with believing in His cross work for solving their sin problem.

The serpent was for ALL who were bitten and faced death, just as Christ is for ALL who have been "bitten", as it were, by Adam's sin and face eternal death.

Just as any bitten Jew didn't believe God's promise reported by Moses would die, so also any human who doesn't believe God's promise of eternal life also dies, eternally separated from Him, which is spiritual death.

Can Calvinism refute my view of this passage, and the points I've made?

What about those who died? What benefit was
the serpent?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

What about those who died? What benefit was
the serpent?

Not to mention the bronze serpent was not for everyone, God instituted the strange practice exclusively for Israel, and those who would not look, out of unbelief, died.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not to mention the bronze serpent was not for everyone, God instituted the strange practice exclusively for Israel, and those who would not look, out of unbelief, died.

Actually, the bronze serpent was FOR ALL WHO HAD BEEN BITTEN AND WANTED PHYSICAL DELIVERANCE FROM THE LETHAL BITE. To claim otherwise simply ignores what was written.

Num 21:8,9
8Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” 9And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit ANY MAN (not to say that no women were bitten or that no women were allowed to look if bitten), when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

What does the text SAY? Moses was told to set a bronze serpent on a pole so that "whosoever was bitten", or actually "everyone who is bitten", means the same thing. The serpent was FOR EVERYONE BITTEN without a doubt.

And the solution to the "lethal bite problem" was to look to the serpent on a pole. "Just as" looking to the cross and believing that Jesus died for your sins solves the "lethal sin problem".

Here are the parallels in what Jesus equated:
#1 Moses set a serpent on a pole for EVERYONE with a "lethal bite problem", and Jesus went to the cross for EVERYONE with a "lethal sin problem".

#2 Anyone bitten, if they simply looked to the serpent on a pole, were delivered of the lethal bite problem, and anyone with a "lethal sin problem", if they simply believe on Christ, are delivered of the lethal sin problem.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Can you post anything without calling out Calvinists?

Well this is a debate a Calvinist forum, so in this particular forum it makes sense.

 

[Hammster]

Actually, the bronze serpent was FOR ALL WHO HAD BEEN BITTEN AND WANTED PHYSICAL DELIVERANCE FROM THE LETHAL BITE. To claim otherwise simply ignores what was written.

Num 21:8,9
8Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” 9And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit ANY MAN (not to say that no women were bitten or that no women were allowed to look if bitten), when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

What does the text SAY? Moses was told to set a bronze serpent on a pole so that "whosoever was bitten", or actually "everyone who is bitten", means the same thing. The serpent was FOR EVERYONE BITTEN without a doubt.

And the solution to the "lethal bite problem" was to look to the serpent on a pole. "Just as" looking to the cross and believing that Jesus died for your sins solves the "lethal sin problem".

Here are the parallels in what Jesus equated:
#1 Moses set a serpent on a pole for EVERYONE with a "lethal bite problem", and Jesus went to the cross for EVERYONE with a "lethal sin problem".

#2 Anyone bitten, if they simply looked to the serpent on a pole, were delivered of the lethal bite problem, and anyone with a "lethal sin problem", if they simply believe on Christ, are delivered of the lethal sin problem.

I guess you forgot about verse 6.