IRRECONCILABLE DIFFERENCES?: Public Opinion Shifts on Ukraine-Russia, Israel-Hamas Wars

[Vambram]

Americans Differ on Ukraine and Gaza

American attitudes toward the wars in Ukraine and Gaza highlight the shifting political perspectives and public sentiment.

www.dailysignal.com

When Russia invaded Ukraine, Americans overwhelmingly supported Ukraine—as they did with Israel after Oct. 7. No wonder: Ukraine was surprise-attacked by Russia, and Israel was by Hamas.
It seemed an easy binary of good versus evil: Both the attacked Ukraine and Israel are pro-Western. Both their attackers, anti-Western Russia and Hamas, are not.
Now everything is bifurcating. And the politics of the wars in America reflect incoherence.
Both Ukraine and Israel are portrayed in the media as supposedly bogging down in their counteroffensives.
More pro-Israel Republicans are troubled by Ukraine’s strategy, or lack thereof, in an increasing World War I Somme-like stalemate.
Yet more pro-Ukrainian Democrats are turning away from Israel as it dismantles Gaza in the messy, bloody slog against Hamas. The Left claims either Israel cannot or should not defeat Hamas, or at least at the present cost.

So the Left pushes Israel to a cease-fire with Hamas.
It blasts Israeli “disproportionate” responses.
It demands that Israel avoid collateral damage.
It pressures it to form a wartime bipartisan government.
It lobbies to cut it off from American resupply.
It is terrified that Israel will expand the war by responding to aggression from Hezbollah and Iran.
Yet on Ukraine, the Left oddly pivots to the very opposite agenda.
It believes Ukraine should not be forced to make peace with Russian “fascists.” It must become disproportionate to “win” the war.
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy deserves a pass, despite canceling elections while suspending political parties.
America must step up its resupply to Kyiv with more and far deadlier weapons.
Ukraine has a perfect right to hit targets inside Russia.
Russian threats to widen the war should be considered empty and thus ignored. America should hate Russia far more than Hamas.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

If Ukraine began receiving state of the art military equipment such that they started invading Russian territory, killing thousands of civilian women and children and leveling civilian neighborhoods along the way they would be criticized for that too. These conflicts are not the same.

If your neighbor's kid keyed your car do you think it would be justified for you to burn down their house? I think you would agree that would be a disproportionate response. I bet you wouldn't even think keying the neighbor's car in response would really be appropriate even if it was considered justified.

Conservatives seem to lack any sense of nuance and context. Everything is either a nail or a hammer.

 

[Vambram]

I'm glad you proved the point of the article.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

I'm glad you proved the point of the article.

Dude, in what way?

 

[Vambram]

Dude, in what way?

In how people on different political sides in the world are comparing Russia vs Ukraine with Israel vs Hamas.

 

[Pommer]

In how people on different political sides in the world are comparing Russia vs Ukraine with Israel vs Hamas.

Our friend basically said that the two wars are not comparable.
You tried to spin that straw into a gold star for your viewpoint, somehow.

 

[Vambram]

Our friend basically said that the two wars are not comparable.
You tried to spin that straw into a gold star for your viewpoint, somehow.

Well, that depends on a person's political point of view, in my opinion.

 

[Pommer]

Well, that depends on a person's political point of view, in my opinion.

How so?

 

[Vambram]

How so?

I know that you are very intelligent. Therefore, I don't need to spell it out for you. I believe that you understand what I am talking about is concerning how different political points of view will lead to different interpretations of current events.

 

[essentialsaltes]

"Both Ukraine and Israel are portrayed in the media as supposedly bogging down in their counteroffensives."

Boggeddownedness is not the critical factor in distinguishing the two cases.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

I know that you are very intelligent. Therefore, I don't need to spell it out for you. I believe that you understand what I am talking about is concerning how different political points of view will lead to different interpretations of current events.

But that's not what's really interesting is it? Isn't what's really interesting is the why?

 

[wing2000]

It seems the "irreconcilable differences " are not so irreconcilable....as the US Congress has approved aid to both countries by a large majority.

 

[Pommer]

I know that you are very intelligent. Therefore, I don't need to spell it out for you. I believe that you understand what I am talking about is concerning how different political points of view will lead to different interpretations of current events.

Well, I guess that I should thank you for putting so much effort into not answering my question.

 

[IceJad]

Americans Differ on Ukraine and Gaza

American attitudes toward the wars in Ukraine and Gaza highlight the shifting political perspectives and public sentiment.

www.dailysignal.com

When Russia invaded Ukraine, Americans overwhelmingly supported Ukraine—as they did with Israel after Oct. 7. No wonder: Ukraine was surprise-attacked by Russia, and Israel was by Hamas.
It seemed an easy binary of good versus evil: Both the attacked Ukraine and Israel are pro-Western. Both their attackers, anti-Western Russia and Hamas, are not.
Now everything is bifurcating. And the politics of the wars in America reflect incoherence.
Both Ukraine and Israel are portrayed in the media as supposedly bogging down in their counteroffensives.
More pro-Israel Republicans are troubled by Ukraine’s strategy, or lack thereof, in an increasing World War I Somme-like stalemate.
Yet more pro-Ukrainian Democrats are turning away from Israel as it dismantles Gaza in the messy, bloody slog against Hamas. The Left claims either Israel cannot or should not defeat Hamas, or at least at the present cost.

So the Left pushes Israel to a cease-fire with Hamas.
It blasts Israeli “disproportionate” responses.
It demands that Israel avoid collateral damage.
It pressures it to form a wartime bipartisan government.
It lobbies to cut it off from American resupply.
It is terrified that Israel will expand the war by responding to aggression from Hezbollah and Iran.
Yet on Ukraine, the Left oddly pivots to the very opposite agenda.
It believes Ukraine should not be forced to make peace with Russian “fascists.” It must become disproportionate to “win” the war.
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy deserves a pass, despite canceling elections while suspending political parties.
America must step up its resupply to Kyiv with more and far deadlier weapons.
Ukraine has a perfect right to hit targets inside Russia.
Russian threats to widen the war should be considered empty and thus ignored. America should hate Russia far more than Hamas.

I feel that the American right pivot from Ukraine has more to do with partisan politics than the actual situation of Ukraine. Since the Democrats led the support the push back from many Republicans are just a counter play. If Trump was in office I'm very sure the same will happen with the Democrats. There is enough right wing commentaries that keep painting the picture of how Ukraine is bad and in the pockets of money men like Larry Fink.

The usual taking points are
1. Not our war
2. Spend money on our own people
3. Zelensky is a puppet of NATO (American allies)

When it comes to Israel the talking points usually flips
1. We must protect our only democratic ally in the middle east
2. Investing ungodly amount in Israel is the same as protecting America
3. Israel is the good guy surrounded by evil nations.

When it comes to American left its the vice versa. Loony I know but I have seen a fair amount of them on Youtube. Just my observation.

For myself I support Ukraine due to Russian aggression veiled by flimsy justification (you know Ukraine is facist, Ukraine is Russian land, etc). I support neither Israel nor Palestine. Both sides have done their fair share to aggravate the other to the point the label just cause means empty words. Israel for her disproportionate response and Palestine for her terroristic acts.

 

[Vambram]

If the Biden Administration actually had a winning strategy that would enable Ukraine to utterly defeat the Russian military in order to force a complete military withdrawal of Ukraine by the Russian military, I know that more Americans would have continued to be extremely supportive of our efforts to help Ukraine. Instead, the war between Ukraine and Russian has become a proxy war which resembles the mistakes the USA made in the Vietnam War.

 

[IceJad]

If the Biden Administration actually had a winning strategy that would enable Ukraine to utterly defeat the Russian military in order to force a complete military withdrawal of Ukraine by the Russian military, I know that more Americans would have continued to be extremely supportive of our efforts to help Ukraine. Instead, the war between Ukraine and Russian has become a proxy war which resembles the mistakes the USA made in the Vietnam War.

Personally I think America today is more cautious to prevent a greater escalation in the region which will bog America down in a longer quagmire. If Ukraine is the only focal point it will be still acceptable however we have the situation in Israel and the looming Chinese conflict in Taiwan. All needing American support diplomatically and materially. Something that is stretching America thin while benefiting rivals like China and Russia. Not to mention domestic challenges created by certain groups of society that hates what America stands for.

All these stamp from an overall weaker America. In the 80s or 90s America would have taken a more direct and assertive action in Ukraine similar to Afghanistan and Bosnia. Back when America has no equal in GDP and world standing and the next closest Japan is an ally. The rise of China in both GDP and influence has muted much of American prowess. On top of their not so secret ambition of supplanting the US as head hegemon which they are actively acting on. America is finding it harder to pull her weight internationally when there is a near equal present.

Despite all I have said I still agree with you. America should be coming up with a better strategy to end the war in Ukraine. And end is soon; decisively. Sadly you're not going to see that from Biden not in an election year. My personal assessment of him is that he is an undecisive and risk adverse leader. He only acts tough when the situation is "safe" politically usually in a domestic setting. In tense international situation he is extremely passive and uses collective decisions as shield against backlash. How he usually pulls in his allies (G7 nations) in international landmines. Far cry from days where America took the lead.

 

[wing2000]

Despite all I have said I still agree with you. America should be coming up with a better strategy to end the war in Ukraine. And end is soon; decisively.

Such as?
Election year or not, the American people will not support American forces actively engaged in combat against Russia.

 

[Hans Blaster]

If the Biden Administration actually had a winning strategy that would enable Ukraine to utterly defeat the Russian military in order to force a complete military withdrawal of Ukraine by the Russian military, I know that more Americans would have continued to be extremely supportive of our efforts to help Ukraine. Instead, the war between Ukraine and Russian has become a proxy war which resembles the mistakes the USA made in the Vietnam War.

It's not the Biden Administration's or DoD's job to have a strategy to win Ukraine's war with Russia. It is leadership of Ukraine responsible for winning their own war. (There have been many instances revealed of Pentagon suggestions or recommendations the Ukraine doesn't take or rejects.)

 

[Vambram]

It's not the Biden Administration's or DoD's job to have a strategy to win Ukraine's war with Russia. It is leadership of Ukraine responsible for winning their own war. (There have been many instances revealed of Pentagon suggestions or recommendations the Ukraine doesn't take or rejects.)

Because we are supplying Ukraine with well over a hundred billion dollars worth of military aid, does it make sense that there should also be a winning strategy to actually defeat the Russian military? Or should we continue to be okay with the modern day equivalent of the Vietnam War in which, by proxy, NATO and the USA is involved with between Ukraine and Russia?

 

[IceJad]

Such as?
Election year or not, the American people will not support American forces actively engaged in combat against Russia.

Such as Bosnia (a place you guys never should have intervened). Don't be coy, America has never been openly oppose to militarily engaging with anyone. You guys have already been in conflict with the Russians in places like Syria. There are enough videos around where Americans & Russians military personnel engage in open hostility there under the guise of supporting your preferred faction.