I love the Mother of God!

[JoeT]

No, it states that she did not bring GOD or a god into existence which the mother, creator, of GOD would mean. She was the mother of the man Jesus who happened to be divine. It means she was the vessel that received the pre-existent Divine son into herself to be born as a human in the same way all the rest of the spirits are sown, not created, into this world as taught in Matthew 13:36-39.

I'll repeat it as many times as necessary; the incarnation is the unique and inseparable union of the natures of a whole and complete God and and a whole and complete man without mixing, mingling or confusion. Like the birth of every man, this occurs a conception. So, at what point in time from conception until his death was Jesus Christ not God? If you say there was never a time in which Jesus Christ was not God then Mary gave birth to God.

JoeT

 

[bbbbbbb]

Love is blind, Ray Charles was blind, Ray Charles was God.

 

[JoeT]

Love is blind, Ray Charles was blind, Ray Charles was God.

You can't love what you don't know, [David McCullough]

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

I think this is an argument that can't be won. Jesus as part of the Trinity has always existed. When he was born he was God incarnate. In that sense Mary is not the Mother of God, he had always existed she was the mother of the man who had a divine nature. But Jesus is God. In that sense she is the Mother of God. So this just seems like splitting hairs.

Oh, I see how simple. She didn't give birth to a person. She gave birth to a nature. Ingenious!

The only problem with this is that mothers, human ones anyway, give birth to persons. Rabbit mothers give birth to rabbits. Skunks give birth to skunks. So, how do we work this out. Let's try: Jesus is wholly Divine God and wholly man. Mary gave birth to the Person Jesus. Thus Mary gave birth to God.

JoeT

 

[BPPLEE]

Oh, I see how simple. She didn't give birth to a person. She gave birth to a nature. Ingenious!

The only problem with this is that mothers, human ones anyway, give birth to persons. Rabbit mothers give birth to rabbits. Skunks give birth to skunks. So, how do we work this out. Let's try: Jesus is wholly Divine God and wholly man. Mary gave birth to the Person Jesus. Thus Mary gave birth to God.

JoeT

I was actually not disagreeing with anyone. Yes Jesus is God and man. Trying to ram your view down my throat doesn't help your argument.

 

[JoeT]

I was actually not disagreeing with anyone. Yes Jesus is God and man. Trying to ram your view down my throat doesn't help your argument.

I didn't see it that way.

All these other alternatives I might have suggested, albeit satirically, or not, create a different god from the One True God. I'm merely shining a light on it.

Another Truth I champion are the Marian doctrines - each of them are necessary to 'know Christ' because what you don't know you can't love.

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

Please show me where they tell of Mary's role in my salvation?

Ok, here's a short list of Mary's reverent role in God's salvation plan for mankind:

• Mary is the vessel (an Ark) by which Man is carried across the dark sea of sin to the shores of our salvation in the battle crushing the head of Satan through her Son. [Genesis 3:15]
• By Mary’s humble acceptance she became the “handmaid of the Lord” [Luke 1:38] making the incarnation a willful act of love for its own sake [Luke 1:38]
• Mary is Hailed by an emissary of God and made full of grace and blessed “among women” [Luke 1:28]
• Mary is the first person redeemed through Christ at her conception as we hope to be.
• Mary’s son is the most high; the Lord who sits on the throne of David. [Luke 1:27], providing mankind an advocate on the throne of God.
• Mary is the first Apostle of Christ teaching, “Whatsoever He shall say to you, do ye” [John 2:5]
• It is through Mary God shows the might of His arm and His mercy,
• Mary exalts us to the love of God. [Luke 1:46-55]
• Mary is literally the bearer, “the mother of Jesus” of the Personification of the New Covenant. [John 2:1,3;6:42;19:25,26; Acts 1:14]

JoeT

 

[bbbbbbb]

Please show me where they tell of Mary's role in my salvation?

Ok, here's a short list of Mary's reverent role in God's salvation plan for mankind:

• Mary is the vessel (an Ark) by which Man is carried across the dark sea of sin to the shores of our salvation in the battle crushing the head of Satan through her Son. [Genesis 3:15]
• By Mary’s humble acceptance she became the “handmaid of the Lord” [Luke 1:38] making the incarnation a willful act of love for its own sake [Luke 1:38]
• Mary is Hailed by an emissary of God and made full of grace and blessed “among women” [Luke 1:28]
• Mary is the first person redeemed through Christ at her conception as we hope to be.
• Mary’s son is the most high; the Lord who sits on the throne of David. [Luke 1:27], providing mankind an advocate on the throne of God.
• Mary is the first Apostle of Christ teaching, “Whatsoever He shall say to you, do ye” [John 2:5]
• It is through Mary God shows the might of His arm and His mercy,
• Mary exalts us to the love of God. [Luke 1:46-55]
• Mary is literally the bearer, “the mother of Jesus” of the Personification of the New Covenant. [John 2:1,3;6:42;19:25,26; Acts 1:14]

JoeT[/QUOTE]

Out of curiosity, do you also believe Mary is Co-Redemptrix?

 

[JoeT]

Out of curiosity, do you also believe Mary is Co-Redemptrix?

Yes I do, even though it is not doctrine. The prefix "co" isn't an equivalency; it isn't what you might want to claim.

JoeT

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes I do, even though it is not doctrine. The prefix "co" isn't an equivalency; it isn't what you might want to claim.

JoeT

Thank you. I know that the Catholic Church, for its own reasons, has not embraced that designation, although, some, such as yourself, have.

 

[JoeT]

Thank you. I know that the Catholic Church, for its own reasons, has not embraced that designation, although, some, such as yourself, have.

The "reasons" are universally true. That's one of the reasons she is called the Catholic Church, instead Luther, Sam's or Pete's Church.

JoeT

 

[bbbbbbb]

The "reasons" are universally true. That's one of the reasons she is called the Catholic Church, instead Luther, Sam's or Pete's Church.

JoeT

Yet, you and many others have chosen to believe at least one doctrine which the Church does not endorse.

 

[JoeT]

Yet, you and many others have chosen to believe at least one doctrine which the Church does not endorse.

That's not quite right. Doctrine obliges the faithful to hold a particular teaching. At this point in various ages of the Church and prior to this time teaching "Co-Redemptrix" is not binding on all believers. Instead coredmptrix recognizes reality and the special and unique role Mary played in the formation of His humanity and His love of the World. I believe the love of Jesus Christ for mankind reflected in Scripture was born out of Mary's love for her Son.Don't ever forget, she knew who and what her son was to be before He was born.

No other woman in Scripture played such an important role in mankind's relationship with God. We can honor Mary for bearing the Christ Child as a vessel that could have been discarded, but wasn't. We honor her for her contribution in raising the Christ Child into a man, and for her supportive contribution during His teaching years. They walk together for 33 years, after which He made the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. Mary was spiritually vested in the Son of God, she was, after all, the 'first' believer, the first to suspend her own will for that of God's.

Yes, many of us do accept the Mary the coredemptrix, if not in doctrine, then in reality. Reality that can't be denied.

JoeT

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's not quite right. Doctrine obliges the faithful to hold a particular teaching. At this point in various ages of the Church and prior to this time teaching "Co-Redemptrix" is not binding on all believers. Instead coredmptrix recognizes reality and the special and unique role Mary played in the formation of His humanity and His love of the World. I believe the love of Jesus Christ for mankind reflected in Scripture was born out of Mary's love for her Son.Don't ever forget, she knew who and what her son was to be before He was born.

No other woman in Scripture played such an important role in mankind's relationship with God. We can honor Mary for bearing the Christ Child as a vessel that could have been discarded, but wasn't. We honor her for her contribution in raising the Christ Child into a man, and for her supportive contribution during His teaching years. They walk together for 33 years, after which He made the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. Mary was spiritually vested in the Son of God, she was, after all, the 'first' believer, the first to suspend her own will for that of God's.

Yes, many of us do accept the Mary the coredemptrix, if not in doctrine, then in reality. Reality that can't be denied.

JoeT

That can also be asserted for popular beliefs of the past, such as Limbo, which are no longer held.

 

[JoeT]

That can also be asserted for popular beliefs of the past, such as Limbo, which are no longer held.

I believe there is a limbo, when did they do away with it? I guess I didn't get the memo.

JoeT

 

[bbbbbbb]

I believe there is a limbo, when did they do away with it? I guess I didn't get the memo.

JoeT

Here 'tis. Limbo - Wikipedia

 

[JoeT]

Here 'tis. Limbo - Wikipedia

What is being described is "purgatory", it is a form of limbo, a state of being neither in heaven nor hell. Un-baptized infants still go somewhere, but not to heaven, we like to think there is a heaven like place for them in a limbo state as well.

Try reading this link instead of Wikipedia.

Purgatory, an interim state of being where a purification occurs
Limbus partum, a permanent state of the unbaptized without grievous personal sin.
Limbus infantium, a permanent state of being for unbaptized infants.

JoeT

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sorry, Limbo is not Purgatory. Purgatory - Wikipedia

Purgatory is where Catholics go to have their temporal sins purged from them prior to entering heaven.

Limbo is defined as being the place that the Old Testament saints went after death. They did not have their sins purged there, because, being saints, they had no sins to purge. Likewise, the former Limbo of infants was not a place of purging of temporal sins of infants, because infants have no temporal sins. The Catholic Church has abandoned the idea of the Limbo of infants.

 

[JoeT]

Sorry, Limbo is not Purgatory. Purgatory - Wikipedia

Purgatory is where Catholics go to have their temporal sins purged from them prior to entering heaven.

Yes, it is a limbo.

Limbo is defined as being the place that the Old Testament saints went after death. They did not have their sins purged there, because, being saints, they had no sins to purge. Likewise, the former Limbo of infants was not a place of purging of temporal sins of infants, because infants have no temporal sins. The Catholic Church has abandoned the idea of the Limbo of infants.

They have not abandoned limbo for infants - it was never doctrine, only speculation. Nevertheless, you can't get around John 3:5. Today it is customary for people to say that we rely on the mercy of God to care for unbaptized instead of infant limbo - it is still a state of being between heaven and hell.

JoeT

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, it is a limbo.

They have not abandoned limbo for infants - it was never doctrine, only speculation. Nevertheless, you can't get around John 3:5. Today it is customary for people to say that we rely on the mercy of God to care for unbaptized instead of infant limbo - it is still a state of being between heaven and hell.

JoeT

You might want to chat with concretecamper here about this topic. He is a conservative Catholic and I think he would be much better at presenting the position of your Church to you than I or Wikipedia could be.