I can't get the doctrine of predestination

[Clare73]

That makes complete sense it's related to total depravity. Thank you for explaining that.
And thank you for explaining about infants.

What is the Calvinist view on prayer for others? Is it all right to pray for others in the hopes that they might be elected, that God would soften their hearts, or is it considered unnecessary?

Thank you again for such a detailed answer! It was really helpful.

We should pray for others, because the NT tells us to do so.

We don't know but that prayer is part of God's plan to bring certain individuals in.

 

[Jonaitis]

That makes complete sense it's related to total depravity. Thank you for explaining that.
And thank you for explaining about infants.

What is the Calvinist view on prayer for others? Is it all right to pray for others in the hopes that they might be elected, that God would soften their hearts, or is it considered unnecessary?

Thank you again for such a detailed answer! It was really helpful.

Prayer is necessary, because God commands it. But, God will operate through prayer on behalf of the elect from the Church, and may use that method to bring His elect to faith in Christ. God's providence is sovereign over the affairs of men, and if that was not the case, then there would be no point of praying for the lost, nor any hope that anyone would be saved. God must be in control, if God can turn the hearts of sinners.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Hello.

Hi there. I apologize for being late to the party—this thread was started three weeks ago—but I discovered this “Ask a Calvinist” section only just today. I’m glad to have found it, though, because I regard curiosity as a virtue and I love fielding questions about things that interest me, and Calvinism definitely interests me.

For the record, I adhere to a Reformed covenant theology that affirms the doctrines of grace (i.e., the five points of Calvinism) and the five solas, among other things. I was drawn to this view by the late R. C. Sproul by watching his many videos, reading his many articles and books, and listening to Renewing Your Mind on nearly a daily basis. I love R. C. Sproul.

I've watched many of R. C. Sproul's and other videos on predestination, and I don't get it completely.

Okay, let's walk through this carefully and thoughtfully.

I understand that semi-Pelagianism is the idea that God knows who's going to be receptive to the gospel and who isn't. So, that's out.

I would say that's more Arminian than semi-Pelagian. One of the biggest problems that Arminians have with Calvinist theology is this idea that election is unconditional. They believe that election is conditional, namely, that God elects to salvation those he knows beforehand will put their faith in Christ.

Pelagius denied the doctrine of original sin, holding that humans are born innocent and have the ability in and of themselves to put their faith in Christ. This was denounced as heretical in the fifth century. Semi-Pelagians have a modified view, namely, that anyone's ability to come to Christ is a result of divine grace (because humans are born abject sinners), which God indiscriminately grants to all. So, denial of original sin identifies Pelagianism, and prevenient grace identifies semi-Pelagianism.

Interestingly, this all pertains to election, not predestination.

So, is it that God [creates babies that he knows will end up in] hell? If so, why have them be born at all? Is this a case of Romans 9:18 and we just have to understand that we can't understand God's ways? If someone could explain this to me, I would really appreciate it!

It should be pointed out that this problem is not restricted to Calvinism. Arminians must also deal with it. On that view, God can look down the corridors of time and know who will and won't come to Christ for salvation. In other words, he knows which people will never accept him and end up in hell—and yet he creates them anyway? But why?

God doesn't tell us, so we don't know—Arminians and Calvinists alike.

From what I understand—and please correct me if I'm wrong—Calvinists believe people cannot choose whether to believe or not because they count that as works, and being saved is 100% grace.

It's not about works. The reason people cannot choose to believe is because, in and of themselves, they are hostile to God. They hate God and refuse to submit to his law. They are controlled by the sinful nature and cannot please God (Romans 8:5-8). "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. ... there is no one who does good, not even one" (Romans 3:10-12). That is the desperate situation of man's sin and why we are so deserving of hell.

It's also why salvation is 100 percent grace. There is nothing in us that would choose him. Without the miracle of regeneration, saying "yes" is impossible.

Arminians think that all who believe are appointed for eternal life. But the Bible says the opposite: "All who were appointed for eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).

Arminians think Jesus said, "But you are not my sheep because you do not believe." However, he said the opposite: "But you do not believe because you are not my sheep" (John 10:26).

And so on. Election is always primary.

How can we have people who are predestined to go to hell if no one can really choose?

That's kind of where I'm stuck. I can't see around the being-able-to-choose issue.

First, they actually can choose. The problem is that they choose only to sin, for that is all they want. That is why they are condemned and remain under God's wrath, on account of their sin which they love and freely choose.

Second, nobody is predestined to go to hell. God gives them over to their wretched depravity and they sink ever deeper into the sin they love, but it is by their own choosing. When the Bible talks about predestination, it pertains only to the elect and only to salvation.

So, election is made by God on a basis that only he knows.

Correct. The only thing I would add is that election is always primary. It is the basis for everything else that follows in salvation (calling, justification, glorification).

So, there will be millions of children born, loved by their parents, educated, married, having children of their own to love, and they will all go to hell because they were not elected?

No. They will go to hell because of their manifest wretched sin.

Does that mean it is useless for us to pray for people, or it is not useless because we don't know if they are elect and will eventually become Christians?

It is no more useless for a Calvinist than an Arminian who likewise has no idea who will eventually become Christian. Besides, prayer is about the children of God talking to their heavenly Father, being real with him and aligning our hearts with his. When we pray for someone to be saved, we're telling God what our desire is—and that's not a useless conversation. Will they ever be saved? We hope so because we love them, but we don't know. And no matter what, we trust God to do what is right and just.

 

[Don Maurer]

Thank you for that! So election is made by God on a basis only He knows. So there will be millions of children born, loved by their parents, educated, married, having children of their own to love, and they will all go to hell because they were not elected?

Hmmm.... Do children have original sin? Are they a part of the rebellion of man against God?

The way you phrase this question seems to be that you are assuming the innocence of some, or least the innocence of some who are not elected. Have "all" sinned and come short of the glory of God? In Psalm 51 was David guilty of sins and trespasses from his conception and birth? Is the starting point for your questions an assumption that children deserve redemption, or that anyone deserves redemption? Is God under obligation to redeem anyone?

It makes me feel guilty for being a Christian when it is never so true that "There, but for the grace of God, go I." I do not disagree with the doctrine of election, I am just trying to understand it. But the pdf seems to explain it very well, that it is something we humans are not able to understand His reasons about.

The doctrine of election is a surprise, not because some are left unelected, we all deserve that... but because God chooses to save anyone.

If I may follow up, does that mean it is useless for us to pray for people, or it is not useless because we don't know if they are elect and will eventually become Christians?

If I might borrow from Surgeon, if God will paint a yellow strip on the back of everyone that is elected, then before I pray for them, I will lift their shirt tails. Election occurred in eternity past (see Ephesians 1:4). The only way to know who God choose was to be there at that time.

If all men have total free will, then there is no reason to bother praying to God because he only chooses them that choose him. If God is the one making the choice, then he is the one in control and your petition should be to him.

One cannot understand the doctrine of election, unless one understands the nature of regeneration. In John 6:44 Jesus says that "no man can come to me." In other words, no one can have faith. Can a rebel sinner suddenly obey God? Other texts (Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 1:29) tell us that faith is a gift. If we cannot come to faith ourselves, then where does faith come from? Faith is a gift which comes by the HS who regenerates us, or changes our nature so that we might believe. Your faith then is not something you can self-glory in, because you did not do it yourself. Give glory to God, for God gave you that gift. If you have faith, it is because God chose you long ago.

There is so much more. Why did God not choose everyone? He chose some for his glory, and he did not choose others for his glory. That, is a long story.