I can't get the doctrine of predestination

[ShiawaseIppai]

Hello. I've watched many of R. C. Sproul's and other videos on predestination, and I don't get it completely. I understand that Semi-Pelagianism is the idea that God knows who's going to be receptive to the gospel and who isn't. So that's out. So is it that God causes babies to be born knowing they are going to hell? If so, why have them be born at all?

Is this a case of Romans 9:18 and we just have to understand that we can't understand God's ways? If someone could explain this to me, I would really appreciate it!

 

[Saucy]

The idea extends greater than that. God is the beginning and the end. He is outside of time and sees it all. How can you explain prophecy and other things if God didn't have a grasp on everything? That would also include knowing who would accept Him and who wouldn't. It's not as if those who didn't accept Him didn't have a choice. They had every opportunity.

 

[ShiawaseIppai]

Thank you for reply. Very true. But from what I understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), Calvinists believe people cannot choose whether to believe or not because they count that as works, and being saved is 100% grace.

Sproul said that the idea that God just knows who would and wouldn't accept his grace and chooses those who would accept his grace, leaves open the possibility of choice, even if God only chooses those who would say "yes." The saying "yes" is impossible for human beings.

So how can we have people who are predestined to go to hell if no one can really choose? That's kind of where I'm stuck. I can't see around the "being able to choose" issue.

 

[Saucy]

I apologize I didn't realize this was the "Ask a Calvinist" area. I sometimes forget to look where threads are posted. I'm a straight-up non-denominational biblical guy so I've never studied Calvinist beliefs to be able to answer from that perspective. I hope you find your answers though!

 

[ShiawaseIppai]

Lol. No worries. I'm not a Calvinist either, but I'm trying to understand their positions. Thanks for responding!

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Lol. No worries. I'm not a Calvinist either, but I'm trying to understand their positions. Thanks for responding!

I'm following this thread to get greater clarity as well. If there is little movement or none, try the " controversial " forum. Blessings.

 

[ShiawaseIppai]

Thank you so much! I hope we both get some clarity on this!

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Thank you so much! I hope we both get some clarity on this!

Welcome to CF!

 

[ShiawaseIppai]

Welcome to CF!

Thank you! I'm glad I found this. I never knew about it until today.

 

[Hammster]

Hello. I've watched many of R. C. Sproul's and other videos on predestination, and I don't get it completely. I understand that Semi-Pelagianism is the idea that God knows who's going to be receptive to the gospel and who isn't. So that's out. So is it that God causes babies to be born knowing they are going to hell? If so, why have them be born at all?

Is this a case of Romans 9:18 and we just have to understand that we can't understand God's ways? If someone could explain this to me, I would really appreciate it!

So are you wondering why God chooses anyone, or why doesn’t He choose everyone?

 

[lsume]

Hello. I've watched many of R. C. Sproul's and other videos on predestination, and I don't get it completely. I understand that Semi-Pelagianism is the idea that God knows who's going to be receptive to the gospel and who isn't. So that's out. So is it that God causes babies to be born knowing they are going to hell? If so, why have them be born at all?

Is this a case of Romans 9:18 and we just have to understand that we can't understand God's ways? If someone could explain this to me, I would really appreciate it!

When I was young in the service, my wife and I attended a small country Methodist church. It was more Baptist back then. I had read the verse in Romans about predestination. I didn’t understand it so I ask an elder what it meant. He told me that those that Scripture was speaking too knew who they were. I simply said then that it wasn’t me because I didn’t know. About 16 years later, Christ opened my eyes to that truth and that’s when I knew. Try always to be obedient to God’s Word. Christ comes as a thief in the night.

 

[A_JAY]

I would recommend you read the Canon of Dort for a perspective on Calvinism and Predestination.

https://www.crcna.org/sites/default/files/CanonsofDordt.pdf

I especially like Kevin Deyoung's 'Grace Defined and Defended' What a 400 year old Confession Teaches Us about Sin, Salvation and the Sovereignty of God.

 

[ShiawaseIppai]

I would recommend you read the Canon of Dort for a perspective on Calvinism and Predestination.

https://www.crcna.org/sites/default/files/CanonsofDordt.pdf

Thank you for that! So election is made by God on a basis only He knows. So there will be millions of children born, loved by their parents, educated, married, having children of their own to love, and they will all go to hell because they were not elected?

It makes me feel guilty for being a Christian when it is never so true that "There, but for the grace of God, go I." I do not disagree with the doctrine of election, I am just trying to understand it. But the pdf seems to explain it very well, that it is something we humans are not able to understand His reasons about.

If I may follow up, does that mean it is useless for us to pray for people, or it is not useless because we don't know if they are elect and will eventually become Christians?

 

[A_JAY]

Thank you for that! So election is made by God on a basis only He knows. So there will be millions of children born, loved by their parents, educated, married, having children of their own to love, and they will all go to hell because they were not elected?

I don't read the Canons of Dordt that way at all. BTW I was making a "friendly" post on information available. I do not care to debate, nor will I.

 

[ShiawaseIppai]

I don't read the Canons of Dordt that way at all. BTW I was making a "friendly" post on information available. I do not care to debate, nor will I.

Oh, no. I don't want a debate. I was just looking for information in trying to understand all the doctrines. I find it quite hard to get detailed information, most likely because I don't really know where to start.

So I very much appreciate you pointing me towards the Canon of Dordt, which I will further study.

I apologize that my words sounded like I was trolling for a debate. I thank you very much for your friendly post - you gave me some genuinely helpful information, and it's my fault for not understanding it properly.

 

[ShiawaseIppai]

When I was young in the service, my wife and I attended a small country Methodist church. It was more Baptist back then. I had read the verse in Romans about predestination. I didn’t understand it so I ask an elder what it meant. He told me that those that Scripture was speaking too knew who they were. I simply said then that it wasn’t me because I didn’t know. About 16 years later, Christ opened my eyes to that truth and that’s when I knew. Try always to be obedient to God’s Word. Christ comes as a thief in the night.

About 16 years later, Christ opened my eyes to that truth and that’s when I knew. Try always to be obedient to God’s Word. Christ comes as a thief in the night.

I thank God for His saving grace. I would truly be lost without it, with the weight of my sin. I pray for my family that grace would come to them as well in time. Thank you.

 

[frank sears]

Why one person will accept Christ and another will not, is a mystery known only to God.

 

[Hammster]

Why one person will accept Christ and another will not, is a mystery known only to God.

And others who study His word.

 

[Jonaitis]

Hello. I've watched many of R. C. Sproul's and other videos on predestination, and I don't get it completely. I understand that Semi-Pelagianism is the idea that God knows who's going to be receptive to the gospel and who isn't. So that's out. So is it that God causes babies to be born knowing they are going to hell? If so, why have them be born at all?

Is this a case of Romans 9:18 and we just have to understand that we can't understand God's ways? If someone could explain this to me, I would really appreciate it!

The doctrine of unconditional election is understood in relation to the doctrine of total depravity. It is taught that if God did not choose us before we were born to be receptive to the preaching of the gospel, none of us would willingly come to Him in faith. We were born in the condemnation and through the corruption of Adam, our first parent, when he fell from his original righteousness and innocence. Sin marred our mind, heart, and will, and enslaved us to living in defiance to God. Unconditional election guarantees that despite our dirty rags, God loved us and chose to save us. He carried out everything in our lives to become positively responsive to Christ, and to walk in Him, and to endure in Him, that we may be a people saved solely on His divine grace.

It is usually taught that elect infants are regenerated in the womb, and are saved in premature death.

 

[ShiawaseIppai]

The doctrine of unconditional election is understood in relation to the doctrine of total depravity....
It is usually taught that elect infants are regenerated in the womb, and are saved in premature death.

That makes complete sense it's related to total depravity. Thank you for explaining that.
And thank you for explaining about infants.

What is the Calvinist view on prayer for others? Is it all right to pray for others in the hopes that they might be elected, that God would soften their hearts, or is it considered unnecessary?

Thank you again for such a detailed answer! It was really helpful.