For years I thought as many (or most) do that hell is an eternal place, an endless seperation from God. But there seems to be enough scripture to support the fact that only believers are granted eternal life, and the rest perish, or die after the judgment, without the lingering suffering or 'burning' in this place called hell. My question is not whether hell exists, surely scripture supports that it does, but is it an eternal place? Or is it just a burning up, a quick perishing (dying) then ceasing to exist? I have heard scripture to support both sides. Please discuss.
Hell: Eternal Damnation Or Quick Death?
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cyberlizard
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i would recommend a web page called http://home.clara.net/arlev look under miscellaneous bits ad pieces for an article which he wrote called eternal habitations.
his name is lee smith and he has some very good stuff on his site
all the best
Steve
p.s. the web site is right - the is no www in it
his name is lee smith and he has some very good stuff on his site
all the best
Steve
p.s. the web site is right - the is no www in it
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Hell is a place of eternal conscious punishment for the wicked.
rev. 14:9-11 I think gives us a good reference to see that it is eternal and conscious.
and I am unaware of scripture that truely and explicitly states otherwise.
I'll put some more stuff up when I get the time.
another 2 points I must make though
1. it is not wise to use hello as a way to spread the gospel for instead of a salvation through faith you get salvation through fear.
2. Hell is a subject that should not be avoided, but It should not be something easily talked about. But instead should fill us all with sorrow over this knowledge and give us the motivation to reduce it.
rev. 14:9-11 I think gives us a good reference to see that it is eternal and conscious.
and I am unaware of scripture that truely and explicitly states otherwise.
I'll put some more stuff up when I get the time.
another 2 points I must make though
1. it is not wise to use hello as a way to spread the gospel for instead of a salvation through faith you get salvation through fear.
2. Hell is a subject that should not be avoided, but It should not be something easily talked about. But instead should fill us all with sorrow over this knowledge and give us the motivation to reduce it.
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BrotherDave
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Hell is eternal damnation. If the unsaved just ceased to exists, then I would imagine that people today would just have a grand old time for themselves thinking they have nothing to worry about after death. This is the fate of animals. They have the breath of the life but do not have a soul. When they die they just cease to exist. But man was made in the image of God, with a soul. Man is accountable to God.
We should be terrified of death or Christ's return if we have not been saved. We cannot imagine how terrible Hell will be. The language God uses to describe hell is ugly (Revelation 14:11, Matthew 8:12 Revelation 20:10). In the Bible God speaks of hell as a lake of fire (Rev 19, 20). A place of outer darkness (Matthew 8:12, 22:13, 25:30), a place where the worm does not die (Mark 9:44-48), and where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30, Luke 13:28). Read Deuteronomy 28, from verse 15 to the end of the chapter, and you will see expression after expression of things that happen on this earth which are used to develop a picture of the awfulness of hell. Hell is the reason why we are so eager to share the Gospel. The only antidote for hell is the Lord Jesus Christ. We cannot be happier than when someone becomes saved
Hell is the condition of being under the wrath of God. Every unsaved person, in that sense, is in hell. That is where God finds us when He saves us. He finds us under the wrath of God and brings us out from under the wrath of God, that is, He brings us out of hell and into eternal life. On the last day, there will be an official arraignment, an official trial, of all the peoples of the world to discover if they have sinned. Of course, everyone who stands for trial will be found guilty of sin, and then they must endure the wrath of God forever.
When we die, our eternal destiny is absolutely determined. If we are a child of God when we die, our soul leaves our body and in our soul we go to live and reign with Christ in heaven because we were given eternal life at the moment Christ saved us (John 3:3). We were given a brand-new resurrected soul (II Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1). On the other hand, an unsaved person who dies has not received eternal life in his soul, so he cannot go into heaven when he dies (or ever), but his soul will separate from his body. His body will be put in the grave just as the believers body is put in the grave when he dies, but the unbelievers soul goes to a place of silence (Psalm 115, Rev. 20:5). He has no conscious existence until judgment day when he will stand as a whole personality at the judgment throne of God (John 5:28-29). The unsaved cannot go directly to hell when they die because they have not been officially judged yet; they will be judged on judgment day, the last day, when Christ returns (Revelation 3).
Matthew 12:38-40 describes the suffering of Christ when He endured hell for our sins. It began on Thursday evening in the Garden of Gethsemane He threw Himself to the ground with loud cries and the sweat poured off His body like great drops of blood (Luke 22:44) into the ground because He was already enduring the wrath of God. He was spiritually in hell; that is the nature of hell, to be under the wrath of God.
I believe we have to talk about Hell because how can anyone become saved if he does not know what he is being saved from? How can he know what he is saved from unless it is thoroughly discussed and diligently taught that because of sins he is under the wrath of God. He is subject to eternal damnation. He ought to be taught from what he needs to be saved from.
In Chrits's service,
David
We should be terrified of death or Christ's return if we have not been saved. We cannot imagine how terrible Hell will be. The language God uses to describe hell is ugly (Revelation 14:11, Matthew 8:12 Revelation 20:10). In the Bible God speaks of hell as a lake of fire (Rev 19, 20). A place of outer darkness (Matthew 8:12, 22:13, 25:30), a place where the worm does not die (Mark 9:44-48), and where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30, Luke 13:28). Read Deuteronomy 28, from verse 15 to the end of the chapter, and you will see expression after expression of things that happen on this earth which are used to develop a picture of the awfulness of hell. Hell is the reason why we are so eager to share the Gospel. The only antidote for hell is the Lord Jesus Christ. We cannot be happier than when someone becomes saved
Hell is the condition of being under the wrath of God. Every unsaved person, in that sense, is in hell. That is where God finds us when He saves us. He finds us under the wrath of God and brings us out from under the wrath of God, that is, He brings us out of hell and into eternal life. On the last day, there will be an official arraignment, an official trial, of all the peoples of the world to discover if they have sinned. Of course, everyone who stands for trial will be found guilty of sin, and then they must endure the wrath of God forever.
When we die, our eternal destiny is absolutely determined. If we are a child of God when we die, our soul leaves our body and in our soul we go to live and reign with Christ in heaven because we were given eternal life at the moment Christ saved us (John 3:3). We were given a brand-new resurrected soul (II Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1). On the other hand, an unsaved person who dies has not received eternal life in his soul, so he cannot go into heaven when he dies (or ever), but his soul will separate from his body. His body will be put in the grave just as the believers body is put in the grave when he dies, but the unbelievers soul goes to a place of silence (Psalm 115, Rev. 20:5). He has no conscious existence until judgment day when he will stand as a whole personality at the judgment throne of God (John 5:28-29). The unsaved cannot go directly to hell when they die because they have not been officially judged yet; they will be judged on judgment day, the last day, when Christ returns (Revelation 3).
Matthew 12:38-40 describes the suffering of Christ when He endured hell for our sins. It began on Thursday evening in the Garden of Gethsemane He threw Himself to the ground with loud cries and the sweat poured off His body like great drops of blood (Luke 22:44) into the ground because He was already enduring the wrath of God. He was spiritually in hell; that is the nature of hell, to be under the wrath of God.
I believe we have to talk about Hell because how can anyone become saved if he does not know what he is being saved from? How can he know what he is saved from unless it is thoroughly discussed and diligently taught that because of sins he is under the wrath of God. He is subject to eternal damnation. He ought to be taught from what he needs to be saved from.
In Chrits's service,
David
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Cyberlizard, thanks for the link, I am working my way through it. Thank you for your thoughts so far. John 3:16 says that those who believe in Christ, should not 'perish', but have everlasting life. Eternal life seems to be set aside for believers, meaning others will not continue to live. The wages of sin is 'death', but the gift of God is eternal life. I do not understand the original language, but perish and death do not sound eternal to me. Immortality is a gift from God, but only believers receive it. I am just thinking out loud. Any other thoughts are welcome.
(I don't know if I posted my question in the proper category...this place is huge! MOD, please move if it is better suited elsewhere. Thanks!)
(I don't know if I posted my question in the proper category...this place is huge! MOD, please move if it is better suited elsewhere. Thanks!)
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jbg9
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Well, you're right, there is scripture to support both sides. However, you've never heard Jesus or God directly mention hell. They've both mentioned that you will be granted eternal life if you are a good Christian.
I know that Jews do not believe in hell all together, which would mean that there isn't even enough evidence in the Old Testament to prove that the place even exists.
In the New Testament, the people that speak of hell are merely followers of Jesus; they were not Jesus.
Sorry, but I have to hear things from either God or Jesus to be certain.
I know that Jews do not believe in hell all together, which would mean that there isn't even enough evidence in the Old Testament to prove that the place even exists.
In the New Testament, the people that speak of hell are merely followers of Jesus; they were not Jesus.
Sorry, but I have to hear things from either God or Jesus to be certain.
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Yes, thanks for the link Cyberlizard. I liked how he broke down the diiferent words used and who were associated with each.
The two passages that make it quite clear to me are:
Dan 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (NRSV)
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. (NAS)
Matt 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (NRSV)
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (NAS)
The everlasting nature of both life and punishment in the same verses puts any doubt out of my mind.
The two passages that make it quite clear to me are:
Dan 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (NRSV)
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. (NAS)
Matt 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (NRSV)
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (NAS)
The everlasting nature of both life and punishment in the same verses puts any doubt out of my mind.
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cyberlizard
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glad you liked the link...
the author's actually a close friend by the name of Lee Smith, but you probably know that from the site already.
an interesting set off links on the page is funnily enough the 'george the hamster' stories. we looked after him one weekend, and the stupid thing escaped...Rodents!
Either way the stories are great for kids and better fow grown ups as they are essentially fables (parables with animals). All good stuff.
Steve in the UK
the author's actually a close friend by the name of Lee Smith, but you probably know that from the site already.
an interesting set off links on the page is funnily enough the 'george the hamster' stories. we looked after him one weekend, and the stupid thing escaped...Rodents!
Either way the stories are great for kids and better fow grown ups as they are essentially fables (parables with animals). All good stuff.
Steve in the UK
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Well this is a case of trying to transmit something for which there is no perfect word.
Eternal life is being in the presence of God. Eternal death is separation from God. There really is nothing to indicate that either are just a finite period of time.
See you are taking a nonbiblical meaning attached to death. That would be ceasing to exist.
Where does anyone cease to exist in the Bible? Death is not the end of everything just the end of our time here on earth.
When we die in baptism, it is not the cessation of everything, just the end of our old life, and we are a new creation.
When people experience the second death being cast into the lake of fire it is not the cessation of everything but the end of any chance of a relationship with God, it is the ultimate final breaking of that relationship. Not a cessation of everything.
Marv
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And Jesus himself taught eternal punishment.
Mat 25:33-46 KJ2000
(33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
(35) For I was hungry, and you gave me food: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:
(36) Naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came unto me.
(37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you hungry, and fed you? or thirsty, and gave you drink?
(38) When saw we you a stranger, and took you in? or naked, and clothed you?
(39) Or when saw we you sick, or in prison, and came unto you?
(40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Since you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me.
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(42) For I was hungry, and you gave me no food: I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink:
(43) I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and you visited me not.
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you hungry, or thirsty or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto you?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Since you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
I don't have that many red letter bibles, but all of them I do have say that these were the words of Jesus. Bolds were added by me.
Marv
Mat 25:33-46 KJ2000
(33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
(35) For I was hungry, and you gave me food: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:
(36) Naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came unto me.
(37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you hungry, and fed you? or thirsty, and gave you drink?
(38) When saw we you a stranger, and took you in? or naked, and clothed you?
(39) Or when saw we you sick, or in prison, and came unto you?
(40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Since you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me.
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(42) For I was hungry, and you gave me no food: I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink:
(43) I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and you visited me not.
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you hungry, or thirsty or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto you?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Since you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
I don't have that many red letter bibles, but all of them I do have say that these were the words of Jesus. Bolds were added by me.
Marv
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brimac
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You are absolutely correct in that scripture can be given to support both arguements, but the reason for that is that Christians have adopted the Platonic logic which taught that the human soul is immortal. The notion that the human soul is innately immortal is not scriptural whatsoever and without that notion those passages that you speak of take on a whole new light. If the human soul is mortal (which it is), then in order for God to torment someone for all eternity, He has to intentional keep that person alive for the sole purpose of torturing them! That is sadistic! We serve a God of love, and yes, He is just, but sadism and justice arent even in the same ballpark!
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Exactly! There is no scripture that says we are immortal, yet somehow I grew up thinking that we were. Immortality is a gift from God that He gives to believers! And I also agree with your other point. To think of our loved ones being tortured forever and ever does not mesh with the love of God that I have experienced. The punishment is that they won't experience heaven! That is awful enough, but then to think that they live forever in this endless state of punishment does not feel right to me. I am a mature Christian and the more I get to know Him the more the concept of eternal hell sounds crazy to me. It doesn't sound like God!
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Jenna
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A person's understanding of scripture truly shouldn't be based on how they "feel" with their emotions. Just because something sounds unpleasant and does not make logical sense to our human understanding, that does not mean that God needs to conform himself to what WE think is "right".
Just because something sounds unpleasant and does not make logical sense to our human understanding, that does not mean that God needs to conform himself to what WE think is "right".
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brimac
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I agree!A person's understanding of scripture truly shouldn't be based on how they "feel" with their emotions.
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I really have trouble believing that someone claiming to be a christian does not think that hell is eternal. It most certainly is! God is eternal and we have sinned against Him,we have sinned against an eternal Being. Therefore logic dictates that the punishment should also be eternal. Not only that but if hell is not forever then why did Jesus have to die for our sins? If hell is only finite and unrepentant sinners will be destroyed completely or as others have suggested,after spending a set amount of time in hell,they are allowed to enter heaven,then wants the point. In one instance it puts less importance on Jesus dying on the cross and in the latter theory Christ's sacrifice becomes unwarranted and meaningless.
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Wow, those are fighting words. Haven't you ever met brothers and sisters in Christ that hold differing doctrines? I don't care for the way you suggest I may not be a Christian because I don't think like you. This is a subject debated by true Christian theologians and there is evidence for both views. It must be nice to be so sure, but I am not sure, and seeking scriptural guidance and input, not intolerance and judgement.
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brimac
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If becoming a Christian is about escaping Hell then we are in bad shape. Jesus didnt just die in order to save us from the second death. He also died so that we make be in His presence when we get resurrected! Its not about the punishment, its about the reward of the lack thereof!
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The first death is a type of the second death. The first death, spoken of below indicates that the second death is just that; death; not eternal life in hellfire.
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Also, death is punishment. Eternal life in hellfire would be punishing. Notice that God will cause the memory of them to cease, so that we will not grieve for them forever.
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Also, death is punishment. Eternal life in hellfire would be punishing. Notice that God will cause the memory of them to cease, so that we will not grieve for them forever.
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Haven't you ever met brothers and sisters in Christ that hold differing doctrines?
Yes i have but there are certain doctrines that cannot be glossed over and say "well it's ok that we don't believe the same thing"because that's simply not the case. Do you not see that Jesus Christ's sacrifice is in vain and that God Himself is not loving if He created humans only to destroy them completely. I believe in want the Lord Jesus did for us all and if hell is not eternal,it really tarnishes his act of love. I certainly do not wish to fight anyone and I do not hate anyone,if it sounds like I do I apologize. This certainly was not my intent. We must fiercely contend for the faith and I believe that the eternality of hell is something that needs to be taught correctly.
Yes i have but there are certain doctrines that cannot be glossed over and say "well it's ok that we don't believe the same thing"because that's simply not the case. Do you not see that Jesus Christ's sacrifice is in vain and that God Himself is not loving if He created humans only to destroy them completely. I believe in want the Lord Jesus did for us all and if hell is not eternal,it really tarnishes his act of love. I certainly do not wish to fight anyone and I do not hate anyone,if it sounds like I do I apologize. This certainly was not my intent. We must fiercely contend for the faith and I believe that the eternality of hell is something that needs to be taught correctly.
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