Hard Determinism- Where did it start?

Tyler35

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Blessings Brothers and Sisters. My question is around hard determinism. I’ve read articles from a Christian who I consider a hard determinist. Aka, they believe that God controls every single thought, word, and action, of every single human being; they do not believe we have any free-will whatsoever.

I do not believe in hard determinism (meaning what this individual says about literal zero free will).

My question though, do any denominations actually believe in zero free will? Or is this person outside of any Christian denomination’s belief system?

I know this person is not the only one who believes in zero free will. When did this sort of thinking make its way into Christianity?

Also if I am posting in the wrong thread I do apologize, please let me know if I need a different thread.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Blessings Brothers and Sisters. My question is around hard determinism. I’ve read articles from a Christian who I consider a hard determinist. Aka, they believe that God controls every single thought, word, and action, of every single human being; they do not believe we have any free-will whatsoever.

I do not believe in hard determinism (meaning what this individual says about literal zero free will).

My question though, do any denominations actually believe in zero free will? Or is this person outside of any Christian denomination’s belief system?

I know this person is not the only one who believes in zero free will. When did this sort of thinking make its way into Christianity?

Also if I am posting in the wrong thread I do apologize, please let me know if I need a different thread.
Calvinism is compatible with this teaching however it does leave room for God's mercy. Your friend is unique in this belief. I suppose the reason for anyone to go to this extream is to shelter themselves from accountability.
Blessings
 
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Clare73

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Blessings Brothers and Sisters. My question is around hard determinism. I’ve read articles from a Christian who I consider a hard determinist. Aka, they believe
Heads up: AKA means "also known as"
 
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RileyG

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Hello Tyler,
Maybe old-school Calvinism teaches there is no free will, but AFAIK Anglicans teach in free will. Some Calvinists believe in double predestination where the fate of the soul is already sealed. However, this is not related to Anglicanism.
Blessings
 
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Clare73

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Hello Tyler,
Maybe old-school Calvinism teaches there is no free will, but AFAIK Anglicans teach in free will. Some Calvinists believe in double predestination where the fate of the soul is already sealed. However, this is not related to Anglicanism.
Blessings
The fate of all souls is sealed.

All mankind is condemned (Ro 5:18), while some are elected out of condemnation.
 
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PloverWing

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The fate of all souls is sealed.

All mankind is condemned (Ro 5:18), while some are elected out of condemnation.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Some Anglicans do lean towards a Reformed position, but this fatalistic view of election is not one I hear frequently among Anglicans. At least in the Episcopal Church, the words of our liturgy are more hopeful than the position you've described.

Noting that this is the STR forum, I'll ask readers who are Anglicans in other countries or who are non-Episcopalian Anglicans in the US: The Anglican tradition, of course, allows for a range of views, including a Reformed view of salvation. How common among Anglicans in your church/community/country is the firm predestination view that Clare73 has described?
 
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PloverWing

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All mankind is condemned (Ro 5:18), while some are elected out of condemnation.

As a side note, Romans 5:18 says this: "Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all."

This isn't the right verse to use if you're trying to argue that God will only save some people.
 
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Paidiske

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Noting that this is the STR forum, I'll ask readers who are Anglicans in other countries or who are non-Episcopalian Anglicans in the US: The Anglican tradition, of course, allows for a range of views, including a Reformed view of salvation. How common among Anglicans in your church/community/country is the firm predestination view that Clare73 has described?
IME, extremely uncommon. In fact, it's a view I've only ever encountered online, from Americans.

I would note that Article 17 of the 39 Articles says this:

"XVII. OF PREDESTINATION AND ELECTION

PREDESTINATION to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.

As the godly consideration of Predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh, and their earthly members, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal Salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: So, for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God's Predestination, is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the Devil doth thrust them either into desperation, or into wretchlessness of most unclean living, no less perilous than desperation.

Furthermore, we must receive God's promises in such wise, as they be generally set forth to us in holy Scripture: and, in our doings, that Will of God is to be followed, which we have expressly declared unto us in the Word of God."

Now that can be read in more than one way, but personally I've always taken it as being cautious about making any claim about predestination to condemnation.

I would not say that Anglicanism, in general, lends itself to a hard determinism, although Article 10 also says this:

"X. OF FREE-WILL

THE condition of Man after the fall of Adam is such, that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and good works, to faith, and calling upon God: Wherefore we have no power to do good works pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing us, that we may have a good will, and working with us, when we have that good will."

(Note that "preventing" here is an archaic usage meaning "going before").
 
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Clare73

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As a side note, Romans 5:18 says this: "Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all."

This isn't the right verse to use if you're trying to argue that God will only save some people.
 
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Clare73

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As a side note, Romans 5:18 says this: "Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all."

This isn't the right verse to use if you're trying to argue that God will only save some people.
If understood in the context of the whole NT, rather than setting Scripture against itself, in which context it means that just as all those of (the first) Adam are condemned, so also all those of (the second Adam) Christ are justified.
 
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Tyler35

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If understood in the context of the whole NT, rather than setting Scripture against itself, in which context it means that just as all those of (the first) Adam are condemned, so also all those of (the second Adam) Christ are justified.
I agree with your interpretation @Clare73. I would say though this verse does not promote free will or hard determinism.
 
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Clare73

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I agree with your interpretation @Clare73. I would say though this verse does not promote free will or hard determinism.
The Bible presents a limited free will; i.e., the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

However, the will does not operate in a vacuum, it is governed by the disposition, it chooses according to what one's disposition prefers, likes.

And the disposition of fallen man prefers governance by self over submission to God, and so that is what it chooses.

Only the disposition wherein the Holy Spirit gives one to prefer God over self will choose total submission to God in all things.
Apart from the operation of the Holy Spirit in the human disposition; i.e., his sovereign new birth (Jn 3:6-8), as unaccountable as the wind, no one chooses total submission to God in all things.
 
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Tyler35

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The Bible presents a limited free will; i.e., the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

However, the will does not operate in a vacuum, it is governed by the disposition, it chooses according to what one's disposition prefers, likes.

And the disposition of fallen man prefers governance by self over submission to God, and so that is what it chooses.

Only the disposition wherein the Holy Spirit gives one to prefer God over self will choose total submission to God in all things.
Apart from the operation of the Holy Spirit in the human disposition; i.e., his sovereign new birth (Jn 3:6-8), as unaccountable as the wind, no one chooses total submission to God in all things.
I agree with you on this as well. But curious do you believe His grace is available to all? I believe His grace is available to all, and that through His foreknowledge He knows who will accept His grace.
 
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Clare73

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I agree with you on this as well. But curious do you believe His grace is available to all? I believe His grace is available to all, and that through His foreknowledge He knows who will accept His grace.
The human disposition of every fallen human being always prefers self governance over total submission to God in all things.
Grace is not an offer, grace is power in operation. Grace both gives one the preference for and the desire to submit to God in all things.
No one "refuses" grace, anymore than anyone "refuses" gravity.
And for the sake of his divine, perfect and all-wise purposes, God does not give it to all.

Which brings us to the meaning of divine foreknowledge.
Divine foreknowledge is not God looking down the corridors of time to see what is going to happen.
God''s foreknowledge (prognosis) is always God knowing in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.

"Known to the Lord for ages (before the beginning of time) is his work." (Ac 15:18)
 
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PloverWing

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IME, extremely uncommon. In fact, it's a view I've only ever encountered online, from Americans.

Interesting. The view is pretty common among Reformed Christians here, I think, though most of the Christians around me are, well, American.

Predestination to damnation is not a view I've ever heard from a pulpit in the Episcopal Church.

I would note that Article 17 of the 39 Articles says this:

"XVII. OF PREDESTINATION AND ELECTION

Oddly, I didn't think to look at the 39 Articles. Now that I read the relevant articles: Yes, I see an emphasis on God's agency, and our inability to do good without God, but article XVII seems to leave ambiguous whether "those whom he hath chosen" are everyone, or mostly everyone, or only a few. So we have a little wiggle room there.
 
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Paidiske

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Interesting. The view is pretty common among Reformed Christians here, I think, though most of the Christians around me are, well, American.
What is perhaps not obvious from a distance is that Reformed Christians are a very tiny minority in Australia. Represented most strongly in Presbyterianism, but even then, most Presbyterians here have amalgamated with the Methodists and the Congregationalists to form the Uniting Church, and their theological distinctives have been softened; so I meet very very few Reformed Christians (those strongly influenced by Calvin's legacy).
Oddly, I didn't think to look at the 39 Articles.
That's because you're an Episcopalian. ;)
Yes, I see an emphasis on God's agency, and our inability to do good without God, but article XVII seems to leave ambiguous whether "those whom he hath chosen" are everyone, or mostly everyone, or only a few. So we have a little wiggle room there.
Exactly.
 
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