Gay Baptist Pastors

[KristiXP]

Would you attend a Baptist church where the pastor is a glutton (assuming gluttony is considered a sin)?

Yes. Gluttony dosn't bother me as much as homosexuality. That's just me. I know no sin is greater than any other, but it's my personal opinion. Now, depending on how overweight this person was, I may not attend because the habits of severly overweight people drive me insane. (Not trying to offend anyone here. Remember this is my personal opinion.

 

[Mimi]

We have a couple of churches here where I live that have openly gay pastors (non-baptist churches) and it got me to thinking....has there ever been an openly gay baptist pastor that people recognized as a man truly called of God to lead a congergation?

Also, what are your thoughts on this subject? Would you all continue to attend a baptist church if the pastor was openly gay and had no desire to be called to repentance on this issue?

Frankie

Sure why not? Could a gay man not be a man of God? That is silly if they need to repent, cause they do nothing wrong. Be glad they are open about it and not hide it. Honesty is so much more important then sexual orientation, don't ya think?

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

 

[Mimi]

Yes. Gluttony dosn't bother me as much as homosexuality. That's just me. I know no sin is greater than any other, but it's my personal opinion. Now, depending on how overweight this person was, I may not attend because the habits of severly overweight people drive me insane. (Not trying to offend anyone here. Remember this is my personal opinion.

Okay.....

There is no sin greater than any other??? Explain this to me...pleeeeeeeeazzzz......so someone who swears is as sinful as someone who muders another human being?

Lots of love and sunshine,
Mimi

 

[lucypevensie]

In God's opinion all sin is a ugly as the next. Look at what it took to cause the fall of Adam and Eve and all mankind. They disobeyed, they ate a little fruit. We might think "what was so horrifying about that?". Seems kind of a mild little sin. But God, in his nature, does not tollerate any sin, minor as a little white lie or major as a mass murder. Some sins have greater natural consequenses than others. Of course we think of murder as the most horrible because of all the people hurt by it, and the punishment and ostracism that society gives murderers. A little white lie doesn't really seem to affect too many people. We tend to rate sins on a scale of severity and expect God to think the same way. But He doesn't.


But as far as the OP goes, no, I would not attend a church with a gay pastor. It's one thing to sin and then repent and strive toward holiness. It's another thing to continue to sin unrepentant.

 

[eldermike]

It is true that sin is sin, all sin is equal. However, the Christian has been given victory over the power of sin and with that comes the victory over death. Christ proved this to all of us by leaving his grave.

So, sin is not the issue. The issue is following a person that is walking in His flesh. They may be as saved as anyone but they are walking in the world and thus should not be leading Gods children.

 

[P_G]

Sure why not? Could a gay man not be a man of God? That is silly if they need to repent, cause they do nothing wrong. Be glad they are open about it and not hide it. Honesty is so much more important then sexual orientation, don't ya think?

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

No Mimi he cannot

A person living openly and unrepentadly in sin removes themselves from elegability for ministry.

1Ti 3:1 Faithful is the word: if anyone aspires to the office of overseer, it is a good work he desires to do.
1Ti 3:2 It is necessary, therefore, that an overseer be without reproach, the husband of one wife, sober, of sound mind, orderly, loving strangers, able to teach,
1Ti 3:3 not given over to wine, not a striker, but gentle, uncontentious, without love of money,
1Ti 3:4 ruling his own house well, having his children in submissiveness with all dignity.
1Ti 3:5 But if anyone does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of an assembly of God?
1Ti 3:6 He should not be newly planted, lest he become conceited and fall into the judgment of the Devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover, it is necessary for him to have a good testimony from those outside the assembly, so that he not fall into reproach and the snare of the Devil.
1Ti 3:8 Ministers likewise must be reverent, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, or greedy of sordid gain,
1Ti 3:9 but holding to the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be tested; then let them serve as ministers if they are beyond reproach.
1Ti 3:11 Wives likewise must be reverent, not false accusers, but temperate, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let ministers be husbands of only one wife, ruling their own children and houses well.
1Ti 3:13 For those who have ministered well obtain for themselves a good standing in the faith that is in Messiah Yeshua.


*** 1:6 if any man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of unsavedness or rebellion.
*** 1:7 For the overseer must be blameless as God’s steward, not self-pleasing, not inclined to wrath, not addicted to wine, not a quarreler, not greedy of sordid gain,
*** 1:8 but hospitable, a lover of goodness, of sound mind, just, holy, self-controlled,
*** 1:9 holding faithful to the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he might have the power both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who speak against it.

So this is what the Bible says. The Bishop or overseer or Pastor must always be of extremely high moral charecter. I know this is unpopular in the light of todays "enlightened society" But Y'shua was unpopular in the light of his "enlightened society" also.



Blessings

Pastor George

 

[seebs]

I am curious.

What do people here think about slave-owning Baptist pastors?

Hypothetically.

 

[eldermike]

What do people here think about slave-owning Baptist pastors?

Hypothetically.

How hypothetical? Baptist pastors are in great shape if they are car owners.

But, I'll take the leap.....I have only read of one baptist slave owner pastor, His name was Philemon. Paul converted his runaway slave and sent Him back to His friend Philemon, not as a slave but as a brother in Christ.

Slavery has always been wrong but God has used it in ways that we don't understand. Just as God uses the poor to shame the rich, He has used the slave to bring nations to him. Can you think of an OT person who was sold into slavery who saved the hebrew people by storing food?

It should go without saying that in the US, today, a pastor should not be a slave owner.

Mike

 

[Mimi]

No Mimi he cannot

A person living openly and unrepentadly in sin removes themselves from elegability for ministry.

1Ti 3:1 Faithful is the word: if anyone aspires to the office of overseer, it is a good work he desires to do.
1Ti 3:2 It is necessary, therefore, that an overseer be without reproach, the husband of one wife, sober, of sound mind, orderly, loving strangers, able to teach,
1Ti 3:3 not given over to wine, not a striker, but gentle, uncontentious, without love of money,
1Ti 3:4 ruling his own house well, having his children in submissiveness with all dignity.
1Ti 3:5 But if anyone does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of an assembly of God?
1Ti 3:6 He should not be newly planted, lest he become conceited and fall into the judgment of the Devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover, it is necessary for him to have a good testimony from those outside the assembly, so that he not fall into reproach and the snare of the Devil.
1Ti 3:8 Ministers likewise must be reverent, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, or greedy of sordid gain,
1Ti 3:9 but holding to the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be tested; then let them serve as ministers if they are beyond reproach.
1Ti 3:11 Wives likewise must be reverent, not false accusers, but temperate, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let ministers be husbands of only one wife, ruling their own children and houses well.
1Ti 3:13 For those who have ministered well obtain for themselves a good standing in the faith that is in Messiah Yeshua.


*** 1:6 if any man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of unsavedness or rebellion.
*** 1:7 For the overseer must be blameless as God’s steward, not self-pleasing, not inclined to wrath, not addicted to wine, not a quarreler, not greedy of sordid gain,
*** 1:8 but hospitable, a lover of goodness, of sound mind, just, holy, self-controlled,
*** 1:9 holding faithful to the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he might have the power both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who speak against it.

So this is what the Bible says. The Bishop or overseer or Pastor must always be of extremely high moral charecter. I know this is unpopular in the light of todays "enlightened society" But Y'shua was unpopular in the light of his "enlightened society" also.



Blessings

Pastor George

Oh my....well, I rather not attend a church where the pastor thinks homosexuals are sinners..... Maybe I am wrong here, but are not all people created equal? (Of course I believe they are evolved.).

My church has male and female reverends (The two women work in the hospital, but also preach in our church because they are part of it) and yes, a gay man, who is also active in our church is allowed to read from the bible as well in church.

I love it there......

To me there is a difference between someone that steals to feed his/her childern or someone that rapes and murders a woman...both are sins, but.....correct me if I am wrong....the second sin is way way much worse!!!!!

God bless all life!

Lots of love and sunshine
Mimi

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Oh my....well, I rather not attend a church where the pastor thinks homosexuals are sinners..... Maybe I am wrong here, but are not all people created equal? (Of course I believe they are evolved.).

My church has male and female reverends (The two women work in the hospital, but also preach in our church because they are part of it) and yes, a gay man, who is also active in our church is allowed to read from the bible as well in church.

I love it there......

To me there is a difference between someone that steals to feed his/her childern or someone that rapes and murders a woman...both are sins, but.....correct me if I am wrong....the second sin is way way much worse!!!!!

God bless all life!

Lots of love and sunshine
Mimi

Are you for real?
Which Jesus do you believe in? The one of the world or the one in the Bible?
Pastors need to be holy, they are apointed by GOD. How can one be holy while living in sin? I completley disagree with your replies.
Homosexality is a SIN and there is NO such thing as a Gay pastor. God never annointed him that is for sure, alteast not the God in my KJV bible.
GEL

 

[Tenorvoice]

A sin, is a sin, is a sin. There is no sin that is greater than any other in the eye's of God. None of them outweigh any other.

To use an old sayin: lets call a spade a spade.

(an Mimi I hope that you were kiddin in yer post)

Like the word of God says :"We need to love the sinner, and hate the sin"

No we do not have any "rights" like the world says that we do.

The Word of God says that we are either one of two things : A slave to sin ....or a slave to Jesus Christ. No one has any "rights" but we all do have responsabilities.

When we are born again into Christ Jesus we are nolonger slaves to sin. We have the CHOICE whether to sin or not "for greater is he that lives in me....". We are no longer captives to the old ways of our flesh (if we submit ourselves to God, and do what his word says)

(ps.....why do you think that Sodom and Gamorrah were destroyed??? because of the over run of homosexualls and how evil their society was)

 

[Frankie]

Oh my....well, I rather not attend a church where the pastor thinks homosexuals are sinners..... Maybe I am wrong here, but are not all people created equal? (Of course I believe they are evolved.).

My church has male and female reverends (The two women work in the hospital, but also preach in our church because they are part of it) and yes, a gay man, who is also active in our church is allowed to read from the bible as well in church.

I love it there......

To me there is a difference between someone that steals to feed his/her childern or someone that rapes and murders a woman...both are sins, but.....correct me if I am wrong....the second sin is way way much worse!!!!!

God bless all life!

Lots of love and sunshine
Mimi

Hi Mimi and God Bless! I have to correct you (you asked for it...lol). One sin is not worse than another sin. Sin is sin in the eyes of God. There is no sin that is "worse" than another because all of them will keep you from Heaven if you are not born again of the Holy Spirit. You will not find a single pastor or preacher on this earth that is without sin. We all are sinners, however, in a good, Bible based church, what you will find are pastors that are ashamed and remorsful for their sin and desire to better their walk with God and please Him. Being openly gay and displaying it as something God approves of while leading a congergation of believers is not pleasing in the eyes of God. If one is openly gay, justifys it and has no desire to turn from it, they should not be leading a congergation of God's children. The same goes for someone who is cheating on their spouse and has no desire to repent of it or for someone who steals from his neighbor and tries to justify it, rather than ask for forgivness and turn from that sin. A leader of a church has an added responsibility to lead His congergation in the truth of God's word. If a pastor of a church is openly sinning and trying to justify it, He is not leading God's people in truth and should not be a pastor. Instead, He/She, should be attending a Biblically based church and be receiving correct council and teachings on righteous living from a pastor who is leading the congergation in truth.

 

[P_G]

Oh my....well, I rather not attend a church where the pastor thinks homosexuals are sinners..... Maybe I am wrong here, but are not all people created equal? (Of course I believe they are evolved.).

My church has male and female reverends (The two women work in the hospital, but also preach in our church because they are part of it) and yes, a gay man, who is also active in our church is allowed to read from the bible as well in church.

I love it there......

To me there is a difference between someone that steals to feed his/her childern or someone that rapes and murders a woman...both are sins, but.....correct me if I am wrong....the second sin is way way much worse!!!!!

God bless all life!

Lots of love and sunshine
Mimi

I don't care a whit what the pastor "Thinks" is sin
In fact no one should care what I as a man who is a pastor "thinks" is sin.

I do however care what G-d thinks is sin!
G-d cares too in fact his opinion on right and wrong is
ALL that matters. He is the judge.

Mimi take careful note that when I tell you something I back it up with
scripture. So that you will know I am not giving you an opinion of man.
Here is what God says about homosexuality:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?


I am going to bet you havent read down this far and just skimmed over those scriptures! But in case you have read this far down. We can see that G-d in his infinate wisdom and justice will give those over who will not turn from sin to their sin. Bottom line you want to sin G-d is going to let you sin. But there is a dire reminder that you will be judged for it.

Next I see that you want to proclaim evolution. Well here again you can beleive anything you want to. But if you take a look at Genesis 1 - 2 and again John 1 you will see that it was G-d who made all that there is. No mention of an evolving race of people.

I am afraid you have fallen into the trap of the plausable explanation. Which dear one comes from the devil the father of lies. I know what you were taught in school and they have their own religion it is called secular humanism. That it seems too is your religion. A religion of false gods and false idols.

I am sure that you feel comforatable in your church because they tell you what you want to hear. I am sure too that I infuriate you because I will not. But Mimi I love you enough to tell you the truth. And here is what the Bible says about where you are at:

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

So Mimi I am going to tell you the truth the truth which saves and brings life. Sometimes that truth doesn't make us happy. G-d is not interested in us being happy in our sin he is interested in us being happy with him forever in heaven. So no I am not going to itch your ears and tell you what you want to hear. And I am surely ready for the slings and arrows. But remember you throw them at G-ds holy word not at some back woods preacher.


Blessings

Read your Bible

Pastor George

 

[Echoes Peak]

We have a couple of churches here where I live that have openly gay pastors (non-baptist churches) and it got me to thinking....has there ever been an openly gay baptist pastor that people recognized as a man truly called of God to lead a congergation?

If there ever was one, I wouldn't be surprised if he either promptly switched denominations or left the ministry all together. I think its safe to say, that it would be very, very, VERY difficult for a pastor who is gay to remain in the Baptist church. As someone has already said, we are definitely very, very conservative and I have, yet to enter a Baptist church, that would wholeheartedly accept it.

 

[Frankie]

If there ever was one, I wouldn't be surprised if he either promptly switched denominations or left the ministry all together. I think its safe to say, that it would be very, very, VERY difficult for a pastor who is gay to remain in the Baptist church. As someone has already said, we are definitely very, very conservative and I have, yet to enter a Baptist church, that would wholeheartedly accept it.

This is just one of the reasons I have chosen a Baptist church for a church home.

 

[kayanne]

Just a quick opinion on the "sin is a sin is a sin, all equal" line of thinking. I agree that even one sin will keep us out of heaven, unless it has been paid for with the blood of Jesus. But there are certain sins God singles out that he says he "hates," certain sins he says are an "abomination," others we are told to "flee from." So even in the Bible God gives us very very strong warnings about certain sins, possibly because He knows they are particularly capable of enslaving us, or particularly capable of damaging our testimony, or hurting others; but for whatever reason, He did choose to differentiate in that regard about different sins.

I'm saying this because it does bug me when someone takes the topic of, for example, homosexuality, and say that a sin is a sin is a sin. I do not believe that a person living an openly gay lifestyle can be compared to a person who momentarily gets perturbed with a driver who cuts in front of him, causing the person to mumble "You idiot!" or whatever (a sin, yes, but not an intentional, ongoing lifestyle of sin)

A lifestyle of ongoing sin is intentional, unrepentant, and incompatible with Christian teaching. "If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." I John 1:6 "The one who says 'I have have come to know Him' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." I John 2:4

 

[P_G]

I'm saying this because it does bug me when someone takes the topic of, for example, homosexuality, and say that a sin is a sin is a sin. I do not believe that a person living an openly gay lifestyle can be compared to a person who momentarily gets perturbed with a driver who cuts in front of him, causing the person to mumble "You idiot!" or whatever (a sin, yes, but not an intentional, ongoing lifestyle of sin)

Yes that is exactly the main point. The driver is later repentant sorry for what he has done and works (one would hope) to go on a better path. He listens to his conviction. The one who walks in sin and justifys it "I Was born this way" "I need this to survive so I stole it" "My wife won't have sex with me so I commit adultery" ad nausium. Is unrepentant. They are saying "God you don't understand I know better than you do"

Well of course G-d understands! Why would Y'shua come as a man if not to say "YES I UNDERSTAND I HAVE BEEN HUMAN TOO" Was he not tempted? Was he not hurt? And yet he still did the will of the father.

Praise him for loving us enough to provide an endless river of forgiveness if we would but just seek Him! Isn't that really the message of the cross?


Blessings

Pastor George

 

[Frankie]

Just a quick opinion on the "sin is a sin is a sin, all equal" line of thinking. I agree that even one sin will keep us out of heaven, unless it has been paid for with the blood of Jesus. But there are certain sins God singles out that he says he "hates," certain sins he says are an "abomination," others we are told to "flee from." So even in the Bible God gives us very very strong warnings about certain sins, possibly because He knows they are particularly capable of enslaving us, or particularly capable of damaging our testimony, or hurting others; but for whatever reason, He did choose to differentiate in that regard about different sins.

I'm saying this because it does bug me when someone takes the topic of, for example, homosexuality, and say that a sin is a sin is a sin. I do not believe that a person living an openly gay lifestyle can be compared to a person who momentarily gets perturbed with a driver who cuts in front of him, causing the person to mumble "You idiot!" or whatever (a sin, yes, but not an intentional, ongoing lifestyle of sin)

A lifestyle of ongoing sin is intentional, unrepentant, and incompatible with Christian teaching. "If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." I John 1:6 "The one who says 'I have have come to know Him' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." I John 2:4

This would be the same for any of our sins though. If we have a hateful attitude towards people and we know that and still continue in that hate, we are continueing in sin. For me personally, I view my sins to be every bit as bad as the sin of homosexuality or fornication. My sins are not those particular sins but they are sin none the less. I am no better a person than those who commit those particular sin. My sin is covered by the blood of Jesus and because of His spirit inside me, I desire to turn from my many, many sins but I do still sin constantly. It greives my heart that there is sin in my life and want to be more like Jesus in the way I treat others and the way I act in my daily life, however, I constantly fall short. Blessed for me, Jesus picks me back up on my feet, tells me I am forgiven and to continue in my walk with Him. I am a wicked creature, the only good that is in me is the Spirit of the Lord that lives inside me. While I agree that there are certain sins that God makes a point to single out as "detestable" in His sight, we still know that He hates ALL sin and that includes mine. For a short period in my life, I was living in sin, in a sin that God has "singled out" as detestable in His sight but He never left me. His spirit remained with me and constantly convicted me to the error of my sin. It got to the point where I could no longer "justify" my living in this particular sin and it became far to apperent that I was grieving the heart of God with that sin. I am happy to say that by the glory of God, I left that particular sin behind.

I can't help but think that for those who are truly saved, who truly, heart and soul have accepted Jesus, that He will eventually work this same effect on them through His Holy Spirit. I think of Paul (Saul) and the terrible, horrible things He did to Christians until He accepted the Lord. Then Wow, look at the change that the Holy Spirit made in Him! God can work a good work in any of us if we are willing to truly put our lives in the hands of Jesus. In this way I do have to say that I believe that a sin is a sin is a sin.

God Bless You,
Frankie

 

[kayanne]

This would be the same for any of our sins though. If we have a hateful attitude towards people and we know that and still continue in that hate, we are continueing in sin.

I absolutely agree. I didn't mean to imply that homosexuality was automatically worse than any and all other sins. It's the habitual practicing of a sin, with a disregard for what scripture says about it that is the problem. If I lose my temper I am generally convicted about it immediately. But if I live that way day in and day out, and say, "Well, I don't care what you think the Bible says about it. God created me an angry person, and He loves me just the way I am, and go mind your own &@*X#!! business!!"

Not that my *opinion* of another person amounts to a hill of beans, but my *opinion* of a person who continues unrepentantly in intentional habitual sin is likely not truly saved. That's not me trying to judge them, but me being concerned about them. If that person died, I personally would not have much peace about where they would spend eternity. The Bible says "Examine yourself, see if you are really in the faith" (slight paraphrase, sorry), which says to me there are people who THINK they are saved, but in actuality, they are not. I think that a person who habitually intentionally sins (ie a practicing homosexual, a practicing adulterer, a practicing thief, or a practicing angry screamer) MAY LIKELY be the kind of person God was referring to when he said "Examine yourself...."

For a short period in my life, I was living in sin, in a sin that God has "singled out" as detestable in His sight but He never left me. His spirit remained with me and constantly convicted me to the error of my sin. It got to the point where I could no longer "justify" my living in this particular sin and it became far to apperent that I was grieving the heart of God with that sin. I am happy to say that by the glory of God, I left that particular sin behind.

There was a period of about 2 years, after I had understood the gospel and asked Jesus to save me, that I lived in a regular state of an intentional habitual sin too. I KNEW it was wrong. I would look at my Bible on the shelf, and not even be courageous enough to pick it up and read it, because I knew it would say things I didn't want to hear! I stopped going to church, I stopped praying. Somehow I didn't feel bad about the sin I was continuing in. But if you asked me, I would have said that I was saved. I even continued to tell others how to be saved! But I was not living like a Christian!! (this was a long time ago--I truly don't understand it now that I look back, so don't ask me what in the world I was thinking!!!) Now as I think back on that period of time, I'm just glad I didn't die during that time, because I'm not at all convinced that I was saved then. I don't know if I really had been saved at one time and lost it, or just never really was yet (this is why I really don't know how I feel about OSAS), but I really do not believe that I was saved and heaven-bound at that point in my life. Thank God for His mercy in bringing me back to HIM!!

I can't help but think that for those who are truly saved, who truly, heart and soul have accepted Jesus, that He will eventually work this same effect on them through His Holy Spirit.
God Bless You,
Frankie

I know that God doesn't "perfect" us at the moment of our salvation, but if a person continues in sin, after he knows for certain what God says about it, without even WANTING to change, I question his salvation. If an alcoholic, or homosexual, etc goes through a period of struggle to escape his sin, with times of repeating the sin, but the DESIRE is to overcome the sin, that is one thing. The original question here was about a homosexual pastor, which sounds like a person who obviously KNOWS what God says about that sin, but continues to live that way anyway (assuming he is practicing the sin of homosexuality and not just having the inclinations without acting upon them).

 

[Frankie]

I absolutely agree. I didn't mean to imply that homosexuality was automatically worse than any and all other sins. It's the habitual practicing of a sin, with a disregard for what scripture says about it that is the problem. If I lose my temper I am generally convicted about it immediately. But if I live that way day in and day out, and say, "Well, I don't care what you think the Bible says about it. God created me an angry person, and He loves me just the way I am, and go mind your own &@*X#!! business!!"

Not that my *opinion* of another person amounts to a hill of beans, but my *opinion* of a person who continues unrepentantly in intentional habitual sin is likely not truly saved. That's not me trying to judge them, but me being concerned about them. If that person died, I personally would not have much peace about where they would spend eternity. The Bible says "Examine yourself, see if you are really in the faith" (slight paraphrase, sorry), which says to me there are people who THINK they are saved, but in actuality, they are not. I think that a person who habitually intentionally sins (ie a practicing homosexual, a practicing adulterer, a practicing thief, or a practicing angry screamer) MAY LIKELY be the kind of person God was referring to when he said "Examine yourself...."




There was a period of about 2 years, after I had understood the gospel and asked Jesus to save me, that I lived in a regular state of an intentional habitual sin too. I KNEW it was wrong. I would look at my Bible on the shelf, and not even be courageous enough to pick it up and read it, because I knew it would say things I didn't want to hear! I stopped going to church, I stopped praying. Somehow I didn't feel bad about the sin I was continuing in. But if you asked me, I would have said that I was saved. I even continued to tell others how to be saved! But I was not living like a Christian!! (this was a long time ago--I truly don't understand it now that I look back, so don't ask me what in the world I was thinking!!!) Now as I think back on that period of time, I'm just glad I didn't die during that time, because I'm not at all convinced that I was saved then. I don't know if I really had been saved at one time and lost it, or just never really was yet (this is why I really don't know how I feel about OSAS), but I really do not believe that I was saved and heaven-bound at that point in my life. Thank God for His mercy in bringing me back to HIM!!


I know that God doesn't "perfect" us at the moment of our salvation, but if a person continues in sin, after he knows for certain what God says about it, without even WANTING to change, I question his salvation. If an alcoholic, or homosexual, etc goes through a period of struggle to escape his sin, with times of repeating the sin, but the DESIRE is to overcome the sin, that is one thing. The original question here was about a homosexual pastor, which sounds like a person who obviously KNOWS what God says about that sin, but continues to live that way anyway (assuming he is practicing the sin of homosexuality and not just having the inclinations without acting upon them).

I totally agree that for one to be a pastor, a real pastor, they would have to know that the Word of God condemns homosexual behavior. I believe that for a pastor to know this and still try to lead a church to "righteous living" is an oxy moron. Pastors have a greater responsibility to God's people in that they are leaders and teachers of truth. I believe it is very wrong for a pastor to be living in sin and try to justify it and still pastor a congergation. I do not think that such a person should be the pastor of church.

God Bless,
Frankie