From Gods Tables of Stone to the Fleshy Tables in our Hearts

[daq]

If the word heresy is too strong then "plain wrong headed teaching" will do.

The fading glory is the law of Moses. It is not something else that you don't like in Judiasm's history.
The surpassing glory is the new covenant ministry of the Spirit

The ministry of condemnation is the law of Moses. It is not other errors God was unhappy with in Israel's history.
The ministry of death was that law of Moses. You long to shift the label to something else that made Jehovah unhappy.

I take the Apostle Paul interpretation as what God reveals to the church.
Moses with the shinning face did not want the Israelites to notice the fading away of that splendor.
And to the apostle it signifies the fading glory of the old covenant.
It is not the fading glory of what the Pharisees and scribes amended on to the law, though that also be superceded.

The contrast is that the old covenant came through glory.
But the new covenant subsists in glory.

The contrast is the old covenant's glory was temporary.
The new covenant glory is abounding and eternal.

The contrast is the old covenant glory shined on the face of one man - Moses.
The new covenant glory shines within millions.

The old convenant ministry glory was just on the surface of the face of Moses.
The new covenant ministry imparts a glory within working its way from the center to the circumference of man's being.
Eventually from within it will burst for even into the transfigured body.


I think you are obfuscating and trying to use sheer volume of discussion to give a false impression.
By making your Exodus more complicated then it need be you seem to suggest that if only I saw MORE there
I would realize Second Corinthians three is heaping all the negatives on something OTHER THAN it is.

It doesn't work. You assume perhaps that I never heard of the rhema and the logos of God's word.
I'm sorry. I understand something about the rhema and the logos.
Both are critical. I cannot live without either. Especially I cannot live without the rhema of God's instant, express speaking to me
personally. Of course I can not be saved without the logos being received by me. Thank God for His mercy that I believe the logos.

Jesus comes back in victory as the Logos of God.

And His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, and He has a name written which no one knows but Himself.
And He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and His name is called the Word of God. (Rev. 19:12,13)

He came as God the Word become flesh.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality. (v.14)

He prepares the church with the constant washing of the water of the rhema to present her spotless and without wrinkle to Himself
That He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word, (Eph. 5:26)

One last point on this post:
We new testament believers should still revere the light, conviction, purity, correction, and profitable insight of the entire
old testament. All Scrtipture is profitble for reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be
complete for every good work. The only Scripture around when Paul wrote this to Timothy was the Hebrew Bible.

You see not having myopic vision, we Christians should be able to see both the fading of the old covenant principle of law keeping
and at the same time live every word that proceeds from the mouth of God as our necessary nourishing food.

Until I come, attend to the public reading, to the exhortation, to the teaching. ( 1 Tim. 4:13)

And that from a babe you have known the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through the faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (2 Tim. 3:15,16)

I think you are obfuscating and trying to use sheer volume of discussion to give a false impression.
By making your Exodus more complicated then it need be you seem to suggest that if only I saw MORE there
I would realize Second Corinthians three is heaping all the negatives on something OTHER THAN it is.

It doesn't work. You assume perhaps that I never heard of the rhema and the logos of God's word.
I'm sorry. I understand something about the rhema and the logos.
Both are critical. I cannot live without either. Especially I cannot live without the rhema of God's instant, express speaking to me
personally. Of course I can not be saved without the logos being received by me. Thank God for His mercy that I believe the logos.

Jesus comes back in victory as the Logos of God.

And His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems, and He has a name written which no one knows but Himself.
And He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and His name is called the Word of God. (Rev. 19:12,13)

He came as God the Word become flesh.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality. (v.14)

He prepares the church with the constant washing of the water of the rhema to present her spotless and without wrinkle to Himself
That He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word, (Eph. 5:26)

One last point on this post:
We new testament believers should still revere the light, conviction, purity, correction, and profitable insight of the entire
old testament. All Scrtipture is profitble for reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be
complete for every good work. The only Scripture around when Paul wrote this to Timothy was the Hebrew Bible.

You see do not having myopic "anti-law" vision. We Christians should be able to see both the fading of the old covenant principle of law keeping and at the same time live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God as our necessary nourishing food.

Until I come, attend to the public reading, to the exhortation, to the teaching. ( 1 Tim. 4:13)

And that from a babe you have known the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through the faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (2 Tim. 3:15,16)

"I think you are obfuscating and trying to use sheer volume of discussion to give a false impression."

Lol, alrighty then.......

 

[oikonomia]

"I think you are obfuscating and trying to use sheer volume of discussion to give a false impression."

Lol, alrighty then.......

I enjoy reading the word. Your convolutions to your point with them are not received.

Basically, you do realize the Apostle Paul is making negative statements pertaining to Israel's history of religion.
To hand wave and make those things he writes about something ElSE besides the law of Moses
calls out your "sheer volume" obfuscations.

The second set of tablets were a another law which Paul was speaking of?
Nonsense.
The "tenor of the words" issue and other things you go into don't change 2 Cor. 3.
The "make for yourselves" issue doesn't change 2 Cor. 3.
The ie. "rhema and not the logos" or visa versa issue doesn't change 2 Cor. 3.

Whatever you bring up - "Moreover if the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, . . ." (2 Cor. 3:7a) cannot be misunderstood or revized to refer to something other than the commandments engraved in stone, either the first broken ones or the ones
preserved and placed in the ark of the testimony.

 

[daq]

Now cheer up daq

No need for me to cheer up: I am quite satisfied turning you over to yourself again.

 

[oikonomia]

Then Jehovah said to Moses, Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write upon the tablets the words which were on the first tablets, which you shattered. (Exo. 34:1)

 

[reddogs]

Then Jehovah said to Moses, Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write upon the tablets the words which were on the first tablets, which you shattered. (Exo. 34:1)

Hmm..so it was twice...

 

[daq]

Hmm..so it was twice...

According to the Septuagint, which Paul is expounding from in 2Cor 3, the words that are written in Exodus 34 are the words written on the second set of tablets.

Exodus 34:27-28 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton Translation)
27 And the Lord said to Moses, Write these words for thyself, for on these words I have established a covenant with thee and with Israel.
28 And Moses was there before the Lord forty days, and forty nights; he did not eat bread, and he did not drink water; and he wrote upon the tables these words of the covenant, the ten sayings.

Moreover herein we find τους δεκα λογους "the ten logous", (a plural form of logos), but as for the first tablets, they are called τα δεκα ρηματα, "the ten rhemata" (a rhema plural form), in Dt 4:13.

Aslo, the LXX again calls the second set of tablets τους δεκα λογους, "the ten logous" in Dt 10:4, which is rehearsing the events found in Exodus 34. Thus my argument in the previous discussion with the other poster was not merely "playing the Logos Rhema card" as he claimed. It is what the LXX teaches, and Paul is surely expounding from the LXX in 2Cor 3, which is evident by his constant mention of glory and glorious, words which are not from the Hebrew text but from the Greek LXX. The Hebrew text does not say anything about glory except that the skin of the face of Mosheh "shone", and the LXX renders that word with several forms of glory, (glory, glorious, glorified), to more fully explain what is meant.

Even taking just a quick simple glance at the words of the covenant which are written in Exodus 34 it is immediately evident that they are not the same as the Ten Rhemata which are first spoken and then written down for us in Exodus 20. This is because the words in Exodus 34 are Logos flowing from the Rhema which was first spoken and then written in Exodus 20.

The fact that Exodus 34 has companion statements from Exodus 23 tells us that everything following Exo 20, from Exo 21 through Exo 23, is Logos flowing from the Ten which were spoken and then written down for us in Exo 20.

I understand this would be unacceptable for SDA's, who say that only "the Ten" still count, but it is what it is: everything else flows from "the Ten", and there is no distinction between a supposed ceremonial law category and a supposed moral law categaory. It is all one Torah.

 

[oikonomia]

Hmm..so it was twice...

And when He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave to Moses the two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God. (Exodus 31:18)

Chapter 32 is about the golden calf idol Israel made and Moses coming down the mountain
to deal with this failure. And Moses interceded to Jehovah on their behalf.

Some sequence of history paradoxes in how Moses sequenced events may be a discussion.
Those matters I will review for it has been a long time since I read of this. However chapter 34 can hardly mean anything else except God repeated His making tablets with His writing to replace tablets that Moses smashed in frustration.

Then Jehovah said to Moses, Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write upon the tablets the words which were on the first tablets, which you shattered. (Exo. 34:1)

The first tablets - written with the finger of God. (Exo. 31:18)
The second tablets - I will write upon the tablets the words which were on the first tablets, (Exo. 34:1)

Then in chapter 34:27 -35 Moses comes down again with the tablets and the shining of his face is in the record.

And Jehovah said to Moses, Write these words, for according to the speaking of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. And he was there with Jehovah forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread, and he did not drink water. And He wrote upon the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
And when Moses came down from Mount Sinai — and the two tablets of the Testimony were in Moses’ hand when he came down from the mountain — Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone by reason of His speaking with him. (vs. 27-29 RcV)

It was this incident which the Apostle Paul spoke of with his interpretions in Second Corinthians three.
And these were the tablets (the Testimony) which were placed in the tabernacle of testimony. Latter the Ark of the Testimoney with those tablets were placed in the temple that Solomon built. They were what God had commanded. They were the commandments of the covenant.

And you shall put into the Ark the Testimony which I will give you. (Exo. 25:16)
Then he took the Testimony and put it into the Ark, and he set the poles onto the Ark and put the expiation cover upon the Ark above it. (Exo. 40:20)

And Jehovah has established His word which He spoke; for I have risen up in the place of David my father, and I sit upon the throne of Israel, as Jehovah promised, and I have built the house for the name of Jehovah the God of Israel.
And there I have set the Ark, in which is the covenant of Jehovah, which He made with the children of Israel. (2 Chron. 6:10,11)

 

[oikonomia]

Hmm..so it was twice...

Paul being forced to speak of the function and competency of is ministry.
A number of this he claims are sighificant.

You are our letter, inscribed in our hearts, known and read by all men,
Since you are being manifested that you are a letter of Christ ministered by us,
inscribed not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tablets of stone but in tablets of hearts of flesh. (2 Cor. 3:2,3)

Footnote 3:2(1) of the Recovery Version helps.
The believers are the fruit of the apostles' labors, commending the apostles and their ministry to others.
Thus they become the apostles' living letter of commendation, written by the apostles, with the indwelling Christ
as the content in every part of their inner being.

Footnote 3:2(2) adds.
The Corinthian believers as the apostles living letter of commendation , are inscribed in the apostles' hearts; thus they are
carried by the apostles and cannot possibly be severed from the apostles. They are in the apostles hearts (7:3), brought by them
everywhere as their living commendation.

Footnote 3:3(1) adds.
A letter of Christ is one composed of Christ as the content to convey Christ and express Christ. All believers of Christ
should be such a living letter of Christ, that others may read and know Christ in their being.

The footnotes are abstracts selected from The Life Study of Second Corinthians by the late Brother Witness Lee.
They are portions of much more ministry expounding of the epistle with an emphasis on studying how Christ
is God's life imparted into people.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books/reader.php?id=vRT_gs0lVwdQ

 

[oikonomia]

Whatever you bring up - "Moreover if the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, . . ." (2 Cor. 3:7a) cannot be misunderstood or revized to refer to something other than the commandments engraved in stone, either the first broken ones or the ones
preserved and placed in the ark of the testimony.

For a moment I had to double checked if it were indeed the tablets placed into the ark.
My first rememberance was right.

Copied from What was inside the Ark of the Covenant? [my coloring]

When God was instructing Moses about the Ark of the Covenant from Mount Sinai, He said, "You shall put into the ark the testimony that I shall give you" (Exodus 25:16). First Kings 8:9 and 2 Chronicles 5:10 both record that during the dedication of Solomon's Temple, "There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone that Moses put there at Horeb, where the LORD made a covenant with the people of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt" (1 Kings 8:9).

 

[pasifika]

As Israel was freed from the slavery of Egypt, all of spiritual Israel have been saved from the bondage of sin by Christ and are given the tablets which go into their hearts.

Deuteronomy 5
The Ten Commandments
1 Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the LORD and you to declare to you the word of the LORD, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:
6 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
7 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.
8 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
11 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.
16 "Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
17 "You shall not murder.
18 "You shall not commit adultery.
19 "You shall not steal.
20 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
21 "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor's house or land, his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." 22 These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

When we see the Law, then look at Jesus, we see Him fulfilling the letter and the spirit of the Law, by Loving God and His neighbor according to the the Commandments which are the two principle's they break down to.
Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So what does the Bible say about the application of God's Law in the heart of a Christian?

2 Corinthians 3:2, 3
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Which was what He intended..

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The Law of God, instead of being done away with, is being brought to life. God's Law was never done away with, not a jot or a tittle. Jesus had it in the fleshy table of His heart too, and He kept it perfectly.

is not a written tablets i.e. 10C that goes into the human heart but Christ Himself.

 

[oikonomia]

is not a written tablets i.e. 10C that goes into the human heart but Christ Himself.

Amen to this.
We're mostly on Second Corinthians here.

Christ Himself is the living divine treasure in the earthen vessels of the believers' body.
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power
may be of God and not out of us. (2 Cor. 4:7)

Though they undergo severe affliction the result is
that the life of Jesus is manifested in their mortal bodies
Always bearing about in the body the putting to death of Jesus
that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.(v.10)

By the power of His resurrection life the apostles were willing to go through anything
because they found the result to be the life of Jesus was manifested in their mortal flesh.
For we who are alive are always being delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake
that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. (v.11)

Whatever opposition, persecution, trial, or suffering came their way
the result was the life of Christ oozed out of them, flowed out of them and into those they ministered to.
So then death operates in us, but life in you. (v.12)

So powerful and effective was this manifestation of Christ in them
here we are two thousand some years latter STILL feasting in encouragement in their testimony.

Paul was just writing "shop talk" about his ministry. Little did he know two millennia into the future
those words would impart life into readers all over the world, sustaining them, establishing them.

 

[oikonomia]

 

[SabbathBlessings]

is not a written tablets i.e. 10C that goes into the human heart but Christ Himself.

God said He writes His law in our hearts and minds Heb 8:10- Christ who gives us His Spirit is the One who enables us to keep His commandments John 14:15-18 and we do so though love and faith. 1 John 5:3 Romans 3:31

I can’t imagine Christ ever wanting us to worship other gods, bow to false idols, or vain His holy name or break the least of these commandments per the teachings of Jesus Christ Mat 5:19-30 who kept all of the Ten Commandments and is the Way, follow the Lamb He is our example. 1 John 2:6 He will only lead us on the narrow path back to reconciliation Rev 22:14

 

[pasifika]

God said He writes His law in our hearts and minds Heb 8:10- Christ who gives us His Spirit is the One who enables us to keep His commandments John 14:15-18 and we do so though love and faith. 1 John 5:3 Romans 3:31

I can’t imagine Christ ever wanting us to worship other gods, bow to false idols, or vain His holy name or break the least of these commandments per the teachings of Jesus Christ Mat 5:19-30 who kept all of the Ten Commandments and is the Way, follow the Lamb He is our example. 1 John 2:6 He will only lead us on the narrow path back to reconciliation Rev 22:14

there is a spiritual meaning to that statement of "writing His law in our hearts, in which 2Corins 3-6 is alluded to. Jesus said All the Law and Prophets were "written about Him" Luke 24:44-49, that is the entire OT.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

there is a spiritual meaning to that statement of "writing His law in our hearts, in which 2Corins 3-6 is alluded to. Jesus said All the Law and Prophets were "written about Him" Luke 24:44-49, that is the entire OT.

Yes, there is a spiritual meaning to keeping His law in our hearts and minds and Jesus shows us an example of that in Mat 5:19-30. Jesus wants us changed from the inside out starting with our thoughts which is where sin begins- its the heart of the matter which is why He writes them right where it counts. All we have to do is not rebel against His will for us Psa 40:8

 

[pasifika]

Amen to this.
We're mostly on Second Corinthians here.

Christ Himself is the living divine treasure in the earthen vessels of the believers' body.
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power
may be of God and not out of us. (2 Cor. 4:7)

Though they undergo severe affliction the result is
that the life of Jesus is manifested in their mortal bodies
Always bearing about in the body the putting to death of Jesus
that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.(v.10)

By the power of His resurrection life the apostles were willing to go through anything
because they found the result to be the life of Jesus was manifested in their mortal flesh.
For we who are alive are always being delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake
that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. (v.11)

Whatever opposition, persecution, trial, or suffering came their way
the result was the life of Christ oozed out of them, flowed out of them and into those they ministered to.
So then death operates in us, but life in you. (v.12)

So powerful and effective was this manifestation of Christ in them
here we are two thousand some years latter STILL feasting in encouragement in their testimony.

Paul was just writing "shop talk" about his ministry. Little did he know two millennia into the future
those words would impart life into readers all over the world, sustaining them, establishing them.

Amen, @oikonomia, this is the living water springing up within Us to eternal life John 4:14

 

[pasifika]

Yes, there is a spiritual meaning to keeping His law in our hearts and minds and Jesus shows us an example of that in Mat 5:19-30. Jesus wants us changed from the inside out starting with our thoughts which is where sin begins- its the heart of the matter which is why He writes them right where it counts. All we have to do is not rebel against His will for us Psa 40:8

yes, by Christ himself through the Spirit. "Without me you can do Nothing" John 15:5

 

[Gary K]

For a moment I had to double checked if it were indeed the tablets placed in the ark.
My first rememberance was right.

Copied from What was inside the Ark of the Covenant? [my coloring]

When God was instructing Moses about the Ark of the Covenant from Mount Sinai, He said, "You shall put into the ark the testimony that I shall give you" (Exodus 25:16). First Kings 8:9 and 2 Chronicles 5:10 both record that during the dedication of Solomon's Temple, "There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone that Moses put there at Horeb, where the LORD made a covenant with the people of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt" (1 Kings 8:9).

That's interesting.

Hebrews says differently.

Hebrews 9: 4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

.

 

[oikonomia]

That's interesting.

Hebrews says differently.

Hebrews 9: 4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

.

It is interesting. Without further study my initial assumption would be that by Solomon's time
the organic things had deteriated. Ie. Aaron's wooden rod with the bud and the manna in the pot
may have not lasted that long.

But I don't know for sure why the two other items were not mentioned at Solomon's time.

 

[oikonomia]

I can’t imagine Christ ever wanting us to worship other gods, bow to false idols, or vain His holy name or break the least of these commandments per the teachings of Jesus Christ Mat 5:19-30 who kept all of the Ten Commandments and is the Way, follow the Lamb He is our example. 1 John 2:6 He will only lead us on the narrow path back to reconciliation Rev 22:14

Freedom from the law . . . Can you imagine the Son of God wanting us to have freedom from the law?
I think "freedom from the law" for you can only mean sinning, trangressing, lawlessness, and acts of unrighteousness.

But Second Corinthians says "where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom".
And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (2 Cor. 3:17)

The ministers of the Spirit (v.6,8) are therefore to minister freedom.
The ministers of the Spirit are not to minister bondage but freedom.

Who has also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant, ministers not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
.
Moreover the new covenant ministry of the Spirit is the ministry of RIGHTEOUSNESS
though the Spirit brings freedom from the law.

How shall the ministry of the Spirit not be more in glory?
For if there is glory with the ministry of condemnation,
much more the ministry of righteousness abounds with glory. (vs. 8,9)